Decline of Christianity and Religion

[Tiberius]

Jacob's prophecy of a Hebrew nation but ending with the Gentile's Messiah was fulfilled by
the Seond Century AD.

Job said his Redeemer is alive, present tense, but in the far future (latter days) will stand upon
the earth. We take that not to be the Jewish Messiah as conquering King but as the Jewish
suffering Redeemer who came to pay the price for mankind's sin.

In Isaiah's day he spoke of the Jews returning 'a second time' to their homeland. That was nuts
to Jews - they hadn't lost their land a first time. Ezekiel spoke of a second return as well, and
this was even more offensive - the Jews were in captivity and here is this guy talking about a
second return in some latter day.

I think you misunderstood.

What source shows that the prophecy was fulfilled?

Two major prophecies yet to be fullfilled - Ezekiel 38,39 the new Israel attacked by Iran, Libya,
Ethiopia and part of what is today modern Russia. The second is the 'Second Coming' where
the Jews will see their expectant Kingly Messiah, but realize it's the same lowly man they once
crucified (Zechariah 9 and 12)

Yeah, lemme know when it happens, okay?

People have believed that the "second Coming" was going to happen any day now for the last two thousand years.

Claims of unfilled prophecies with the assurance, "But it WILL happen!" are entirely unconvincing to me.

 

[Tiberius]

You're confusing selfish greed with justice - they will not protest any infraction that they don't have a vested interest in. Not to mention Tiberius, you're being extremely crafty by attempting to minimalize the entire point that I made - I said morality, spirituality and justice.

How did you determine it was about greed and not justice?

Worker 1 does a particular task and is given a certain compensation as their earnings for that task. Worker 2 performs the same task and is given a greater compensation. Worker 1, who initially accepted their compensation, sees that Worker 2 was compensated to a greater degree and feels that they were treated unfairly. They, after all, saw what Worker 2 was paid and thought, "If Worker 2 deserves that much for performing the task, then why shouldn't I get the same compensation?"

Why is it greed when it's a monkey getting upset when he's paid in a slice of cucumber when his counterpart gets a delicious grape, but a sense of justice when it's a human worker who gets upset when he sees that his coworker is being paid $17 an hour when he is only paid $12 an hour for the same work?

 

[Tiberius]

You're getting way too simple. He won't react if he's not affected by the inequality, the way that a human will.

Except the monkey DID react.

Plus, you're not understanding what I said, which included many signs of spirituality in humans that is not found in animals: morality, religion, indignation for principle or others, remorse over guilty conscience....

There is evidence of morality and remorse in animals as well. I don't see why religion is important, and I'm not sure what you mean by "indignation for principle or others."

 

[PruePhillip]

What source shows that the prophecy was fulfilled?
Yeah, lemme know when it happens, okay?

Isaiah's second delivery of the Jewish people is recorded numerous times, one
such passage is Chapter 11, which also speaks of the Messiah. This was madness
to many Jews who asked how can Israel returned from exile 'a second time' when
it hadn't been in exile ever, let alone a second time.

'the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant..
four corners of the earth...'

Ezekiel and others speak of this second exile as being quite bitter. The first was
Babylon but it was only 70 years and only involved a segment of the Jews - the
second, from the hand of the nation that would 'cut off' the Messiah, would be
quite bitter.

When was it fulfilled?
Maybe 1897 with the beginning of the Zionist movement.
Maybe 1948 with the foundation of Israel
Maybe 1967 with the retaking of Jerusalem as Jesus prophecised.

But you are living in biblical history. It's not finished yet - some events have yet
to take place, but a nation ruined, occupied would be taken back 'with the sword'
by the remnant of the Jews - but not the 12 former tribes but just two tribes - Ephraim
and Mannesa (symbolically) who were the two sons of Joseph in Egypt, one religious
and one secular - two tribes who were not a part of the old Hebrew clan, but Jews just
the same. The imagery is profound, subtle and beautiful.

 

[Regiomontanus]

why do you suppose christianity is on the decline? evidently religion is on the decline altogether.


a pew research poll shows christianity down 12% from a decade ago.


Christians continue to make up a majority of the U.S. populace, but their share of the adult population is 12 points lower in 2021 than it was in 2011. In addition, the share of U.S. adults who say they pray on a daily basis has been trending downward, as has the share who say religion is “very important” in their lives.

Do your homework; it is declining only in the decadent West. Capitalism prevails there = the biosphere dies.

 

[Tiberius]

Isaiah's second delivery of the Jewish people is recorded numerous times, one
such passage is Chapter 11, which also speaks of the Messiah. This was madness
to many Jews who asked how can Israel returned from exile 'a second time' when
it hadn't been in exile ever, let alone a second time.

'the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant..
four corners of the earth...'

Ezekiel and others speak of this second exile as being quite bitter. The first was
Babylon but it was only 70 years and only involved a segment of the Jews - the
second, from the hand of the nation that would 'cut off' the Messiah, would be
quite bitter.

When was it fulfilled?
Maybe 1897 with the beginning of the Zionist movement.
Maybe 1948 with the foundation of Israel
Maybe 1967 with the retaking of Jerusalem as Jesus prophecised.

But you are living in biblical history. It's not finished yet - some events have yet
to take place, but a nation ruined, occupied would be taken back 'with the sword'
by the remnant of the Jews - but not the 12 former tribes but just two tribes - Ephraim
and Mannesa (symbolically) who were the two sons of Joseph in Egypt, one religious
and one secular - two tribes who were not a part of the old Hebrew clan, but Jews just
the same. The imagery is profound, subtle and beautiful.

Ah, so your source for the event that fulfilled it is the same source as the one where the prophecy was made. So, according to the list of prophecy criteria in my signature, we can't rule out a failure in 2 and 3. Thus I see no reason to accept the prophecy as valid.

 

[PruePhillip]

Ah, so your source for the event that fulfilled it is the same source as the one where the prophecy was made. So, according to the list of prophecy criteria in my signature, we can't rule out a failure in 2 and 3. Thus I see no reason to accept the prophecy as valid.

I am afaid you have lost me.
The bible said that Jews would go into exile, scattered to the four corners of the earth.

And during that long, long exile
the Jews long prayed, 'Next year in Jerusalem', even in the frozen heart of Russia,
a thousand years after being exiled from sub-tropical Palestine.

Few Jews believed that the Jews would ever again see Jerusalem as their capital.
Many 'academics' mocked the Zion idea.

That event eventually happened.

Please explain how this is a failed or false prophecy.

 

[DNB]

How did you determine it was about greed and not justice?

Worker 1 does a particular task and is given a certain compensation as their earnings for that task. Worker 2 performs the same task and is given a greater compensation. Worker 1, who initially accepted their compensation, sees that Worker 2 was compensated to a greater degree and feels that they were treated unfairly. They, after all, saw what Worker 2 was paid and thought, "If Worker 2 deserves that much for performing the task, then why shouldn't I get the same compensation?"

Why is it greed when it's a monkey getting upset when he's paid in a slice of cucumber when his counterpart gets a delicious grape, but a sense of justice when it's a human worker who gets upset when he sees that his coworker is being paid $17 an hour when he is only paid $12 an hour for the same work?

AGAIN, you can't prove that his reaction wasn't precipitated by his own selfish concern. But, it can be proved that he won't do the same for a different monkey, if the sense of justice was all that he had in mind, obviously!

 

[DNB]

Except the monkey DID react.[p/QUOTE]
BECAUSE HE WAS DIRECTLY AFFECTED BY IT/!?!?! It wasn't for principle, obviously!

There is evidence of morality and remorse in animals as well. I don't see why religion is important, and I'm not sure what you mean by "indignation for principle or others."

Humans are indignant toward injustice and abuse whether or not it directly afflicts them. Many white people demonstrated against black segregation, or abuses across seas. never will an animal do such a thing, unless it poses a direct threat to them.

 

[Tiberius]

I am afaid you have lost me.
The bible said that Jews would go into exile, scattered to the four corners of the earth.

And during that long, long exile
the Jews long prayed, 'Next year in Jerusalem', even in the frozen heart of Russia,
a thousand years after being exiled from sub-tropical Palestine.

Few Jews believed that the Jews would ever again see Jerusalem as their capital.
Many 'academics' mocked the Zion idea.

That event eventually happened.

Please explain how this is a failed or false prophecy.

Please explain how this could only have happened if God is real.

If it was something that could have just happened anyway, then it's no more valid than a prophecy that I will eat at some point today.

 

[Tiberius]

AGAIN, you can't prove that his reaction wasn't precipitated by his own selfish concern. But, it can be proved that he won't do the same for a different monkey, if the sense of justice was all that he had in mind, obviously!

So you think he'd be okay with seeing a different monkey get paid better?

Your attempts to explain this away seem very strained.

 

[Tiberius]

BECAUSE HE WAS DIRECTLY AFFECTED BY IT/!?!?! It wasn't for principle, obviously!

And how was the monkey affected by a differnt monkey getting a grape instead?

Humans are indignant toward injustice and abuse whether or not it directly afflicts them. Many white people demonstrated against black segregation, or abuses across seas. never will an animal do such a thing, unless it poses a direct threat to them.

So all the examples in this article are lies, are they? Do Animals Protect Other Animals?

 

[DNB]

So you think he'd be okay with seeing a different monkey get paid better?

Your attempts to explain this away seem very strained.

MAMA MIA, if he saw another monkey, or any other flippin' animal get ripped off.
What's wrong with you????

 

[DNB]

And how was the monkey affected by a differnt monkey getting a grape instead?



So all the examples in this article are lies, are they? Do Animals Protect Other Animals?

I give up

 

[PruePhillip]

Please explain how this could only have happened if God is real.

If it was something that could have just happened anyway, then it's no more valid than a prophecy that I will eat at some point today.

You might well eat again today.
Chances are pretty good - depending upon the time of day.
But lets look at the CHANCES this prophecy would come true.

Jacob in Egypt foresaw a Hebrew nation, under theocratic law and governed by a monarchy under the line of Judah,
“until” the Messiah comes. The Gentiles would obey Him.

Genesis 49:10 "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes;
And to Him shall be the obedience of the people."

Let’s apply “Probability Judgment”

Chance of one particular Semite tribe becoming a nation? Difficult, let’s say 1/1000.
Chance of a monarchy? God was against monarchy but monarchies were common – 50%.
Chance of a Judean king? Easy, 1/12 as there were twelve tribes
Chance of a theocratic law? 50%
Chance of the Messiah who’s coming would end this nation? Impossible to figure. 1/million? More. Let’s be generous – 1/1000.
And the “obedience of the nations” to a Jewish Messiah? Count the gods of the world’s tribes. Be generous and say 1/10,000.

Generous probability = 0.000000000000415%
What’s that? Not even one in a trillion.

The accuracy demands explanation.

 

[Tiberius]

MAMA MIA, if he saw another monkey, or any other flippin' animal get ripped off.
What's wrong with you????

You miss the point. The monkey was able to recognise that he was getting ripped off and showed he understood it by getting ticked off.

 

[Tiberius]

But lets look at the CHANCES this prophecy would come true.

Jacob in Egypt foresaw a Hebrew nation, under theocratic law and governed by a monarchy under the line of Judah,
“until” the Messiah comes. The Gentiles would obey Him.

Genesis 49:10 "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes;
And to Him shall be the obedience of the people."

Let’s apply “Probability Judgment”

Chance of one particular Semite tribe becoming a nation? Difficult, let’s say 1/1000.
Chance of a monarchy? God was against monarchy but monarchies were common – 50%.
Chance of a Judean king? Easy, 1/12 as there were twelve tribes
Chance of a theocratic law? 50%
Chance of the Messiah who’s coming would end this nation? Impossible to figure. 1/million? More. Let’s be generous – 1/1000.
And the “obedience of the nations” to a Jewish Messiah? Count the gods of the world’s tribes. Be generous and say 1/10,000.

Generous probability = 0.000000000000415%
What’s that? Not even one in a trillion.

The accuracy demands explanation.

Show your working.

 

[PruePhillip]

Show your working.

I already did. And my figure of one in a thousand for a Messiah ending the nation
of Israel is way, way out --- let's say it's one a trillion all of its own.

The chances of Jacob being correct would be one in a trillion trillion.

 

[Muffled]

I would say a voice of God, not the voice of God.

I believe God has one voice not many. I suppose one could say a manifestation of His voice since He has spoken to many over the centuries.

 

[Tiberius]

I already did. And my figure of one in a thousand for a Messiah ending the nation
of Israel is way, way out --- let's say it's one a trillion all of its own.

The chances of Jacob being correct would be one in a trillion trillion.

No, you made claims. Show how you reached the figures you quoted. Because it seems to me like it's just guessing.