Decline of Christianity and Religion

[DNB]

You miss the point. The monkey was able to recognise that he was getting ripped off and showed he understood it by getting ticked off.

Again, that's not a protest towards the principle of injustice. It was a selfish reaction. As you saw, the other monkey did not protest, he was pleased with the favoured and unequal treatment, as would the upset monkey be had the treatment been reversed.
You are really not getting the point.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Again, that's not a protest towards the principle of injustice. It was a selfish reaction. As you saw, the other monkey did not protest, he was pleased with the favoured and unequal treatment, as would the upset monkey be had the treatment been reversed.
You are really not getting the point.

What's this thing about monkey's and other animals?

I have had pet cats, and they are very intelligent.
OK, they can't type messages on computer keyboards
..but they have souls, and are capable of feelings etc.
..just look into their eyes.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Again, that's not a protest towards the principle of injustice. It was a selfish reaction. As you saw, the other monkey did not protest, he was pleased with the favoured and unequal treatment, as would the upset monkey be had the treatment been reversed.
You are really not getting the point.

Tiberius is right. The monkey protested because it had an inate sense that unequal meals were unjust. It has nothing to do with selfishness. If both monkeys received cucumbers, there was no protest. It was ONLY when one monkey got a cucumber and the other got soemtthing better that the monkey protested.

 

[DNB]

What's this thing about monkey's and other animals?

I have had pet cats, and they are very intelligent.
OK, they can't type messages on computer keyboards
..but they have souls, and are capable of feelings etc.
..just look into their eyes.

They are not spiritual beings as humans are.

 

[muhammad_isa]

They are not spiritual beings as humans are.

Oh yes, they are.
Do you think that they haven't got their own personalities?
An animal without a soul would be an automaton. They are far from that.
They can be loving and show loyalty to others etc.

 

[DNB]

Tiberius is right. The monkey protested because it had an inate sense that unequal meals were unjust. It has nothing to do with selfishness. If both monkeys received cucumbers, there was no protest. It was ONLY when one monkey got a cucumber and the other got soemtthing better that the monkey protested.

You're both egregiously wrong, ...and anyone else that holds the same position as yours. I've never heard such naive and biased nonsense?
I don't know why I'm even bothering to explain further? Justice is equality for all, one who allows himself to be treated with unwarranted special treatment to the detriment of others, has no sense of justice. And one who squeals when treated unfairly, does not by any means necessitate the victim's comprehension of justice but merely that I don't want someone getting more than me.

All in all, non-humans are not spiritual beings, and it doesn't take 'a monkey' to figure that out!

 

[DNB]

Oh yes, they are.
Do you think that they haven't got their own personalities?
An animal without a soul would be an automaton. They are far from that.
They can be loving and show loyalty to others etc.

No, it's survival, not unconditional love for the sake of love. He'll scratch someone's eyes out just as easily as he cuddles up to his owner.

 

[Left Coast]

You're both egregiously wrong, ...and anyone else that holds the same position as yours. I've never heard such naive and biased nonsense?
I don't know why I'm even bothering to explain further? Justice is equality for all, one who allows himself to be treated with unwarranted special treatment to the detriment of others, has no sense of justice. And one who squeals when treated unfairly, does not by any means necessitate the victim's comprehension of justice but merely that I don't want someone getting more than me.

You understand that young children have the same kind of reactions, yes? It's only further along in their development that their morality matures to concern for others and eventually, for some of them, adoption of universal moral values.

All in all, non-humans are not spiritual beings, and it doesn't take 'a monkey' to figure that out!

I don't know what it means for humans to be "spiritual beings," anyway.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

They are not spiritual beings as humans are.

Actually, chimpanzees exhibit certain behavior that, if they were human, we would certainly label as religious. Things like having certain trees as shrines where they leave rocks. Or dancing in the presence of natural wonders like a waterfall or thunderstorm

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You're both egregiously wrong, ...and anyone else that holds the same position as yours. I've never heard such naive and biased nonsense?
I don't know why I'm even bothering to explain further? Justice is equality for all, one who allows himself to be treated with unwarranted special treatment to the detriment of others, has no sense of justice. And one who squeals when treated unfairly, does not by any means necessitate the victim's comprehension of justice but merely that I don't want someone getting more than me.

All in all, non-humans are not spiritual beings, and it doesn't take 'a monkey' to figure that out!

I'm sorry, but although chimp sense of morality is very primitive, it is evolving. They do have a rudimentary sense of justice. It is simply your own heart felt belief that there is a chasm dividing humans from other animals that is preventing you from seeing what has been proven.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No, it's survival, not unconditional love for the sake of love..

Hmmph!
I think that many creatures are more trustworthy than human beings.
Dogs that behave badly, for example, tend to be a reflection of their owners.

 

[Ashoka]

They are not spiritual beings as humans are.

Yes they are. The departure from seeing animals as living souls is why we now see such cruelty done to them. After all, if they have no soul, I can treat them any way I wish, right?

 

[DNB]

You understand that young children have the same kind of reactions, yes? It's only further along in their development that their morality matures to concern for others and eventually, for some of them, adoption of universal moral values.



I don't know what it means for humans to be "spiritual beings," anyway.

Yes, children have the same reaction as I stated in an earlier post. It is not justice that compels their reaction.

 

[DNB]

Actually, chimpanzees exhibit certain behavior that, if they were human, we would certainly label as religious. Things like having certain trees as shrines where they leave rocks. Or dancing in the presence of natural wonders like a waterfall or thunderstorm

Sorry IC, to make such an assertion one who have to provide less ambiguous evidence. I'm not being difficult, for to display a human's religious spirit the evidence would be incontrovertible. That is, as far as the abundance, the intensity, the dedication, sacrifice and expense are concerned, one cannot mistake such practices as anything but an innate search and desire for the divine.

 

[Left Coast]

Yes, children have the same reaction as I stated in an earlier post. It is not justice that compels their reaction.

Depends what you mean. Morality develops in stages as people age/mature. Universal moral principles are the final thing to develop. Do you think humans aren't moral in any way till they're adults? Or not spiritual in any way?

Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development - Wikipedia

 

[DNB]

I'm sorry, but although chimp sense of morality is very primitive, it is evolving. They do have a rudimentary sense of justice. It is simply your own heart felt belief that there is a chasm dividing humans from other animals that is preventing you from seeing what has been proven.

I can see why you perceive the chimp's reaction as justice. He did recognize a measurement or quality difference in what each animal was offered. He was displeased when the portion or substances were unequal, and placated once they were recognizably the same. I see how it can be construed as a demand for justice. But, like I said, children do the same with no rhyme or reason in regard to justice, but merely not to be considered less - for again, they won't make the same protest if they received the more attractive portion.

Point being, when comparing the spiritual capacity of a human compared to a non-human, such a test is barely evidence of equality, or even conclusive of any justice whatsoever.
My actual quote IC was , 'animals do no pray to God, build shrines or temples or altars, where burkas or yarmulkes or turbans, they have no sense or morality or justice, and they kill indiscriminately without a conscience plagued with remorse, etc...'
And to this, the rebuttal was the monkey experiment that we've been talking about much too long. Do you see the ludicrous aspect of such a contention to what I had presented?

 

[DNB]

Hmmph!
I think that many creatures are more trustworthy than human beings.
Dogs that behave badly, for example, tend to be a reflection of their owners.

They're animals no matter how you cut it. They don't acknowledge God, nor can they. Only humans are created in God's image. There is a profound and disparate chasm between the man's recognition of spiritual issues, morality, conscience, etc... and that of a non-human's, which is null.;

 

[DNB]

Yes they are. The departure from seeing animals as living souls is why we now see such cruelty done to them. After all, if they have no soul, I can treat them any way I wish, right?

A soul they have, but not a spiritual endowment within their constitution. They have no morals or a sense of justice, no eulogies for the dead, or prisons or legal systems for the unrighteous. They kill other animals with no remorse, but won't allow others to kill them - their savage.

 

[DNB]

Depends what you mean. Morality develops in stages as people age/mature. Universal moral principles are the final thing to develop. Do you think humans aren't moral in any way till they're adults? Or not spiritual in any way?

Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development - Wikipedia

Humans are spiritual, obviously. It's the flippin' monkeys, dolphins, mosquitos and amoebas that are not - no matter how old or 'mature' that they get

 

[Left Coast]

Humans are spiritual, obviously. It's the flippin' monkeys, dolphins, mosquitos and amoebas that are not - no matter how old or 'mature' that they get

So in what way are babies "spiritual," if they have none of the moral values you're talking about that you think makes us "spiritual?"