Defending Secularism against Religious Incursions

[Sakeenah]

If you want a simple phrase to sum this all up " Islam is about power to muslims and the slavery of everyone else." I do not say this lightly but many of these people from Pakistan , Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Iraq ect are savages. They will refuse to integrate on any level and they demand you bend over backwards for them.

I'm Dutch-Somali and your statement is ridiculous.
Majority of Pakistanis,Somalis,Arabs in the west are peaceful law abiding citizens. Many of them contribute to society and are fully integrated. There are Pakistani,Somali and Arab doctors,teachers,police men and women. We don't have to give up our religion and culture to integrate and no we don't expect anyone to bend over backwards for us.

Maybe we should start talking about the positive effects of immigration..

"In 2013, for example, immigrants added
$1.6 trilion to total U.S. gross domestic product, or GDP. Economists have found that immigrants complement native-born workers and increase the standard of living for all Americans"

"The value of the education of immigrants in the UK labour market who arrived since 2000 and that has been paid for in the immigrants’ origin countries amounts to £6.8bn over the period between 2000 and 2011. By contributing to ‘pure’ public goods (such as defence or basic research), immigrants arriving since 2000 have saved the UK taxpayer an additional £8.5bn over the same period."

" In a report published in 2013, the OBR said that more migrants are needed to fund the rising cost of pensions, social care and the NHS."

" 61% of the US Arabs earned thehighest university degrees versus 30% of the average US citizens. The Arab citizens are mainly Lebanese (40%), Syrians (12.3%), Egyptians (12%), Palestinians (6%), Iraqis, North Africans… earned the highest university degrees versus 30% of the average US citizens
The average “Arab” in the US earn $54,000 versus $43,000
57% of the “Arabs” in the US own single family homes versus 43% of the average ratio.
The Arabs in the US hold the highest posts and the most private businesses than the other US minorities, including European, Japanese, and Chinese.

" The Pakistani American community is said to be philanthropic, research shows that in the year 2002 the community gave close to US$1 Billion in philanthropic activities (including value of volunteered time)"

" British Pakistanis have had diverse contributions and influence on British society, politics, culture, economy and sport. Whilst social issues include high relative poverty rates among the community according to the 2001 census,[9]significant progress has been made in recent years, with the 2011 Census showing British Pakistanis as having amongst the highest levels of home ownership in Britain.[10] A large number of British Pakistanis have traditionally been self-employed, with a significant number working in the transport industry or in family-run businesses of the retail sector.[2]"

"In the election for the Minnesota House of Representatives, both the Democratic and the Republican candidates standing for one district (the District 60B) are Somali, meaning that the victor will become the country’s first Somali-American legislator."

 

[Sakeenah]

Perhaps we can make some progress here. So here's an assumption I'm making:

I view secularism and theocracy as opponents in a zero-sum game.

Do you agree or disagree?

(BTW, "islamophobia" is a fundamentally dishonest term promoted by those who want to stifle criticism. If you're concerned with anti-Muslim discrimination, you have a legitimate concern. But the term "islamophobia" conflates actual discrimination with legitimate criticism.)

​

Islamophobia is a term used to describe unfounded hostility towards Muslims, and therefore fear or dislike of all or most Muslims. I don't think a person is an islamophobe for disagreeing or criticizing Islam,but if a person hates me and is hostile because I'm a muslim than yes that person is an islamophobe.

 

[icehorse]

Islamophobia is a term used to describe unfounded hostility towards Muslims, and therefore fear or dislike of all or most Muslims. I don't think a person is an islamophobe for disagreeing or criticizing Islam,but if a person hates me and is hostile because I'm a muslim than yes that person is an islamophobe.

Many times a person is called an islamophobe merely for disliking the ideas islam promotes. What do you think those critics should be called, islamophobes? BTW, I'm one of those people who dislike the ideas of Islam. But my guess is that i'd get along fine with you. So am I an islamophobe?

 

[Sakeenah]

Many times a person is called an islamophobe merely for disliking the ideas islam promotes. What do you think those critics should be called, islamophobes? BTW, I'm one of those people who dislike the ideas of Islam. But my guess is that i'd get along fine with you. So am I an islamophobe?

I don't think people misuse the term islamophobia often but yes it's possible that there are people who misuse it.
This doesn't justify calling islamophobia a vague or dishonest term. By calling it dishonest it seems that you are trying to deny there is islamophobia.

Critics who criticize ideas of Islam are simply called islam critics.If you don't hate muslims,believe we have equal rights and respect us than in my opinion you're not an islamophobe.

 

[icehorse]

There are some people who misuse the term islamophobia but that can be said about a lot of terms. This doesn't justify calling islamophobia a vague or dishonest term

How would you define the term?

 

[Augustus]

Agreed on the continuum, but it sounds like you're rethinking the zero-sum aspect?

Let me put this another way, if you agree with the zero-sum idea, then any action that weakens secularism strengthens theocracy. I'd like to hash that out before moving forward...

You proposed it as a dichotomy, and in that context I agreed with it.

IRL, I don't see it that way. It is perfectly possible that strengthening religiously inspired government could weaken support for theocracy.

 

[Sakeenah]

How would you define the term?

" A term used to describe unfounded hostility towards Muslims, and therefore fear or dislike of all or most Muslims."

 

[icehorse]

" A term used to describe unfounded hostility towards Muslims, and therefore fear or dislike of all or most Muslims."

Ok. So then would you say that someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali is an islamophobe?

I also wonder why your definition does not include Islam, only Muslims?

 

[Sakeenah]

How would you define the term?

What should I call someone who's hostile towards me because I'm muslim and I wear a headscarf ?

 

[icehorse]

What should I call someone who's hostile towards me because I'm muslim and I wear a headscarf ?

anti-Muslim?

What do you call someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

 

[Sakeenah]

anti-Muslim?

What do you call someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

Anti-Muslim and Islamophobe is the same thing in my opinion.

I call Ayaan Hirsi Ali an Islam critic who marketed herself as an ' expert informant who has emerged out of the dark heart of radical Islam and into the light of Western civilization'.
I personally can't understand how anyone can believe she's a trustworthy source on Islam and muslims. She admitted to fabricating her entire story from the forced marriage to fleeing from the civil war. She did this to receive political asylum and advance her career. When all of her lies were revealed and she apologized on national dutch tv, she announced her plans to leave parliament and to relocate to the US to take up a position with the American Enterprise Institute..what a coincidence.

 

[Sakeenah]

Hi Sakeenah ,
Long time, I have not seen you around here ,nice to see you again .

Hey hadrianus, thanks I was around, mostly reading threads. Nice to see you too.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

@Sakeenah - I so much appreciate having you around. Salam, my friend.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As for xenophobia and antisemitism, I believe that those are both fears of people, whereas critics of Islam are criticizing ideas, not people.

That is absolute rubbish. When pogroms were carried out against the Christ-killers and when the Protocols of Zion are distributed in the marketplace it had everything to do with an attack on Jewish people - often poor, powerless, and confined to the shtetl - first and foremost because they were Jews.

Antisemitism-denial has a robust history. It should fool no one. Your denial of islamophobia is no different, and attacking a job grievance under the banner "Spreading Sharia" is, indeed, transparently islamophobic.

Parenthetically, Wikipedia offers:

Islamophobia or Muslimophobia (see section "Terms" for related terms) refers to fear, prejudice, hatred or dislike directed against Islam or Muslims, or towards Islamic politics or culture.[1][2][3]

The term Islamophobia started being used in the early 20th century and emerged as a neologism in the 1970s, then became increasingly salient during the 1980s and 1990s, and reached public policy prominence with the report by the Runnymede Trust's Commission on British Muslims and Islamophobia (CBMI) entitled Islamophobia: A Challenge for Us All (1997). The introduction of the term was justified by the report's assessment that "anti-Muslim prejudice has grown so considerably and so rapidly in recent years that a new item in the vocabulary is needed".[4]​

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Agreed on the continuum, but it sounds like you're rethinking the zero-sum aspect?

Let me put this another way, if you agree with the zero-sum idea, then any action that weakens secularism strengthens theocracy. I'd like to hash that out before moving forward...

So, you agree that:

One manifestation of secularism is asserting the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, or, in a state declared to be neutral on matters of belief, from the imposition by government of religion or religious practices upon its people. [ibid] [emphasis added - JS]​

What we'll no doubt discover is that you hold any accommodation to constitute an unreasonable and grievous attack on secularism (tantamount to "Spreading Sharia") so long as it is an accommodation to religious belief. It is a self-serving and baseless claim.

A far better picture of secularism is suggested by this from the Touro Synagogue.

 

[icehorse]

Anti-Muslim and Islamophobe is the same thing in my opinion.

I call Ayaan Hirsi Ali an Islam critic who marketed herself as an ' expert informant who has emerged out of the dark heart of radical Islam and into the light of Western civilization'.
I personally can't understand how anyone can believe she's a trustworthy source on Islam and muslims. She admitted to fabricating her entire story from the forced marriage to fleeing from the civil war. She did this to receive political asylum and advance her career. When all of her lies were revealed and she apologized on national dutch tv, she announced her plans to leave parliament and to relocate to the US to take up a position with the American Enterprise Institute..what a coincidence.

The problem I have with these definitions is that it blurs the lines between discrimination - which I agree is a real problem - and criticism.

So how do you propose we keep these two - very different - situations distinct from each other?

 

[icehorse]

That is absolute rubbish. When pogroms were carried out against the Christ-killers and when the Protocols of Zion are distributed in the marketplace it had everything to do with an attack on Jewish people - often poor, powerless, and confined to the shtetl - first and foremost because they were Jews.

Antisemitism-denial has a robust history. It should fool no one. Your denial of islamophobia is no different, and attacking a job grievance under the banner "Spreading Sharia" is, indeed, transparently islamophobic.

Jay, you are at the least misunderstanding me. And I suspect your mischaracterization is deliberate?

Anyway:

First: I am completely in agreement that the Jewish people have been and continue to be subjected to an endless stream of horrors of every type imaginable, right up to and including the Arab's current attempts at genocide.

Second: I am growing weary of your mischaracterizations of my positions. I have never denied that anti-Muslim discrimination exists. Never! Got it??

Yes, Yes, YES, Muslims are sometimes discriminated against!!!!!!

Independent of discrimination is the fact that Islam itself is the most problematic of all the Abrahamic doctrines. As such, Islam is indeed subject to much criticism. Guess what? It should be! Islam is a horrible set of ideas. It is in desperate need of reform. These criticisms are not however discriminatory.

There is an important distinction here, and that's why the term "islamophobe" is dishonest. Because it blurs the lines between two very real, but very distinct situations. And used in the wrong hands, it paints legitimate criticism with the implication of discrimination.

Just as you have done in these two threads.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

J
There is an important distinction here, and that's why the term "islamophobe" is dishonest.

You mean as opposed to your "honest" warning about "Spreading Sharia" -- got it.

 

[icehorse]

You mean as opposed to your "honest" warning about "Spreading Sharia" -- got it.

So I'll ask again, what is the word for the Christian body of law that would be in place in a Christian theocracy?

Would you have been happier if I'd said "theocracy" instead of "sharia" ?

And I'm finding that you leave many of my questions unanswered, yet you continue to besmirch me. Seems disingenuous to me, at best.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Would you have been happier if I'd said "theocracy" instead of "sharia" ?

I would have been happier if you had chosen to retire your dog whistle.