Defending Secularism against Religious Incursions

[Bob the Unbeliever]

A dutch white male spat at me, does that mean every dutch white male in the world is responsible? They all are dutch,white and male.

Do all white Dutch men in the world follow and promote, a specific BOOK which commands them to spit on certain religions?

No? Your "point" is false.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I hope you get my point, I don't believe that the majority is responsible for the acts of a minority.
Yes we believe in the same book but we don't interpret it the same way. The violent extremists take verses out of context and interpret it a way that suits their political agenda.

Your point is false. It is a Logical Fallacy, known as No True Scotsman.

You cannot change the FACT that all muslims worship the SAME BOOK.

If you do not wish to be lumped in with the radicals? CHANGE YOUR DAMN BOOK.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Muslim communities and organizations are not silent, you just don't hear about it in mainstream media, it's not controversial so it's not newsworthy.

I have looked-- and I do not see counter-commentary, against violence inspired by the quoran.

I well remember the total silence over certain cartoons-- tacit approval by the so-called "moderates", because deep down, they approve of the extremists' violence-- how *dare* someone make a cartoon of your "prophet"...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Let me think for a second, I think I remember the word, it's a bit of a long word!

"StopGeneralizingandDoSomeResearch"

I have done research. There only the one (1) Official Muslim Handbook™. The "quoran" or however you spell it this year.

It does, in fact, call for murdering "apostates" and other sorts you don't approve of.

So I ask again-- is the fear of Islamic Extremists unjustified?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Maybe nobody else noticed the irony of atheists, camped out on a religious forum, which would appear to indicate that atheism is a religion, vehemently complaining about religious incursions against secularism.

It has only been a few decades since religious people stopped automatic murder of "apostates" or other people not in the religious tribe.

We have not forgotten-- and we recognize that such behavior is too easily restarted.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Apostolic succession means that there will always be a valid pope. (And this is promised by Christ in Matthew 16:18). However, who happens to be pope and whether or not that pope is any good depends on us. Christ established the Church, not the particulars of how the Church is organised.

And from another perspective as Hilare Belloc puts it.

"The Catholic Church is an institution I am bound to hold divine — but for unbelievers a proof of its divinity might be found in the fact that no merely human institution conducted with such knavish imbecility would have lasted a fortnight."

But by all means, if bashing the Church if it makes you fell all intellectual like...

Nice bit of apologetics you got going there.

I notice you utterly failed to address the White Elephant In The Room: it appears there is no actual "higher authority" to sort out the very corrupt Catholic Church.

I look back on history? And you cannot even trace your linage to the "original"! Too many schisms, too many examples in history where there were multiple, directly-competing popes!

Which one was "divine", again?

What's worse, are the dozens of popes who were "selected" by the simple fact that the previous pope had been murdered by the current one (or his minions-- same thing).

There was a time, when the "natural" cause of death, of the pope, was ... poison.

Jesus was a lot of things, according to self-styled "experts". But nobody disputes he was a pacifist most of all.

How do you think Jesus would have reacted to his "principle spokes-person" being selected by the murder of the previous one?

 

[Sakeenah]

Do all white Dutch men in the world follow and promote, a specific BOOK which commands them to spit on certain religions?

No? Your "point" is false.

I think you don't understand what I was trying to say. The majority peaceful Muslims aren't and will never be responsible for the acts of an extremist minority

 

[Sakeenah]

False dichotomy. Which is a logical fallacy. Do atheists all share the same BOOK?

A book which literally calls for the DEATH of no-believers? No?

Do Muslims share such a book? Yes.

Until you change your book-- and strip out or put a disclaimer on the passages that call for the DEATH of people who do not slavisly follow your book?

You are indirectly responsible for all the evil that book inspires. You keep promoting a book which commands it's readers to murder.

Like I've mentioned in my previous post, extremist take the verses out of context and intepret it in a way that suits their political agenda,and it seems that you support their interpretation.
The Quran doesn't command readers to murder.

"Whoever kills a person it is as though he has killed all mankind.And whoever saves a life,it is as though he had saved all mankind." (5:32)

 

[Notanumber]

Like I've mentioned in my previous post, extremist take the verses out of context and intepret it in a way that suits their political agenda,and it seems that you support their interpretation.
The Quran doesn't command readers to murder.

"Whoever kills a person it is as though he has killed all mankind.And whoever saves a life,it is as though he had saved all mankind." (5:32)

Verse 5:32: All Life is Sacred?

 

[Sakeenah]

I have done research. There only the one (1) Official Muslim Handbook™. The "quoran" or however you spell it this year.

It does, in fact, call for murdering "apostates" and other sorts you don't approve of.

So I ask again-- is the fear of Islamic Extremists unjustified?

So you've done your 'research' but you don't know how Quran is spelled,that makes sense
Fear of muslim and non muslim extremists is never unjustified.

 

[Sakeenah]

Verse 5:32: All Life is Sacred?

Hate website interpretations again?

 

[Sakeenah]

Your point is false. It is a Logical Fallacy, known as No True Scotsman.

You cannot change the FACT that all muslims worship the SAME BOOK.

If you do not wish to be lumped in with the radicals? CHANGE YOUR DAMN BOOK.

I don't think my logic is false, but I respect your opinion.
It seems you need to do a bit more research on Islam,Muslims don't worship a book we worship God.

It seems that you're quite angry and frustrated..lack of understanding can have that effect on people.
Why should I change my book? Just so that you can accept me as a peaceful Muslim, I'm not planning on changing a single verse.I explained in several posts that myself and the majority of Muslims are peaceful. I support a peaceful and tolerant interpretation of the Quran and I think many muslims would agree with me.
What do you think you'll achieve by saying " change your damn book" ?

 

[Sakeenah]

The problem I have with these definitions is that it blurs the lines between discrimination - which I agree is a real problem - and criticism.

So how do you propose we keep these two - very different - situations distinct from each other?

Sorry for my late reply, I'm glad we can agree that discrimination is a real problem. IMO these definition do not blur the lines between discrimination and criticizm because they are two different things. We can keep these two different situations distinct from each other by looking at it objectively.

 

[Notanumber]

Hate website interpretations again?

Is it hated because it tells the truth?

 

[icehorse]

Sorry for my late reply, I'm glad we can agree that discrimination is a real problem. IMO these definition do not blur the lines between discrimination and criticizm because they are two different things. We can keep these two different situations distinct from each other by looking at it objectively.

How about not using the same word (islamophobia), for two very different situations (discrimination and criticism)?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I think you don't understand what I was trying to say. The majority peaceful Muslims aren't and will never be responsible for the acts of an extremist minority

I understand that you are peaceful-- except when you aren't, of course.

And that little problem with you using the same book as those who are less than nice...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Like I've mentioned in my previous post, extremist take the verses out of context and intepret it in a way that suits their political agenda,and it seems that you support their interpretation.
The Quran doesn't command readers to murder.

"Whoever kills a person it is as though he has killed all mankind.And whoever saves a life,it is as though he had saved all mankind." (5:32)

Funny. The extremists say the exact same thing about .. .you... that YOU are not a Real Muslim™, and that YOU take things out of context, and that YOU are insincere in your practice.

Which do I believe?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

So you've done your 'research' but you don't know how Quran is spelled,that makes sense
Fear of muslim and non muslim extremists is never unjustified.

I see it spelled literally hundreds of different ways over the years-- all from self-important, self-styled "experts" on the subject ...

But suddenly, I should listen to you, now? Why? Who made you the "expert"?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I don't think my logic is false, but I respect your opinion.
It seems you need to do a bit more research on Islam,Muslims don't worship a book ...

False. To 100%. Proof, you ask?

Why don't you change your book to remove all the violence it contains? Hmmmm?

What's that? It's "too sacred"?

I rest my case: you do worship it like some sort of golden idol.

Don't feel bad. Many christians act the same way about the equally violent bible...

More proof: Anytime some very ugly person makes a giant point about burning your book-- the entire world of Islam gets all up-in-arms with the threats....

... including the so-called "moderates".

I've never burned one, what would be the point? But the fact that muslims get all up in arms about what is just a copy?

Also proves you do worship this book...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Why should I change my book? Just so that you can accept me as a peaceful Muslim, I'm not planning on changing a single verse.

Of course not! You worship it! Your own words prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you do!

You'd prefer to leave all the violent language in-- so that the extremists can do all the "dirty work" for you... as you and your fellow so-called "peaceful" types look on with a stern "disapproving gaze"....

... all the while, tacitly supporting the violence...

"peaceful"? Not even a little...