Democracy going down

[PureX]

sounds simple...so did burn yer draft card and look how many people turned out to stop the war in vietnam.....
that ended badly and they still managed to pull off their war because enough dumbhashes thought it was their duty to obey....same as today...
sorry, I still think we are collectively forked.

Then there will be a bloody revolution. Because greed cannot be satiated, and people will not be enslaved by it forever.

 

[Yerda]

I expect that some people are losing faith in democracy because in countries like the US and UK we have system managed by extreme wealth for only the benefit of extreme wealth. Anything like genuine democracy is a threat to them and they won't have it.

In the UK the Tories got 43.6% of the vote but have a huge Parliamentary majority.

Anything near 45% in our system is normally a landslide in terms of seats. Blair had huge majorities on smaller vote shares.

They taught us in school that FTPT post was all about strong government unlike those lukewarm continentals with their parliamentary deadlock...

 

[Altfish]

I expect that some people are losing faith in democracy because in countries like the US and UK we have system managed by extreme wealth for only the benefit of extreme wealth. Anything like genuine democracy is a threat to them and they won't have it.

Anything near 45% in our system is normally a landslide in terms of seats. Blair had huge majorities on smaller vote shares.

They taught us in school that FTPT post was all about strong government unlike those lukewarm continentals with their parliamentary deadlock...

I assume you mean FPTP, but it also means governments with less than 50% can run rough shot over the whole population.

 

[Revoltingest]

What was an eye opener for me was the declaration that the US is now considered as an Olagarchy.

The U.S. is an Oligarchy? The Research, Explained

We are no longer a representative republic nor a democracy for that matter and not even a shot was fired.

Such cynicism.
People get what they vote for.
The kind of politicians we elect behave exactly according
to their records in office. We could elect alternatives, but
we deliberately choose not to.
Look at this election....Biden vs Trump, especially the former.
Democrats could've picked someone with a different record
to run....someone progressive & anti-war. But they didn't.
It's a democracy. Trump's supporters want him in office.

People just hate the results when they don't get their way.
But tis easier to blame some boogie man, eg, the oligarchy,
the patriarchy, the military industrial complex, than to
accept responsibility for one's own vote & political party.

 

[PureX]

Such cynicism.
People get what they vote for.
The kind of politicians we elect behave exactly according
to their records in office. We could elect alternatives, but
we deliberately choose not to.
Look at this election....Biden vs Trump, especially the former.
Democrats could've picked someone with a different record
to run....someone progressive & anti-war. But they didn't.
It's a democracy. Trump's supporters want him in office.

People just hate the results when they don't get their way.
But tis easier to blame some boogie man, eg, the oligarchy,
the patriarchy, the military industrial complex, than to
accept responsibility for one's own vote & political party.

The corruption begins way before the candidates are chosen. And people don't know what to do when they dislike the only one or two options being put forth. Stop blaming it all on the people, and put the blame where much of it really belongs: on the greedy, wealthy, corporate interests that now own and control both parties, and own and control every candidate that we get to choose from.

 

[Revoltingest]

Stop blaming it all on the people....

I say....
Stop letting voters off the hook.
They know the agendas of the candidates
they vote for by their records in office.
They could vote for candidates with different
records. But they don't.

Your view, ie, blaming someone else, is
predicated on voting being unable to steer
the ship of state.
Do you vote? If so, why?

 

[PureX]

I say....
Stop letting voters off the hook.
They know the agendas of the candidates

No they don't. They think they do, but they don't. Because we're all swimming in an ocean of lies, now, spewed out by the gallons every day by professional paid liars. And guess who's paying them ... yep, the same people who are paying for the politician's campaigns (on both sides), and that own their crooked a$$es as a result.

they vote for by their records in office.

What planet are you living on???

They could vote for candidates with different records. But they don't.

There are no candidates with "different voting records" because they ALL vote as they are told to vote by the people who pay for their campaigns, and for their in-office perks, and for their travel "junkets" and their do-nothing family member's salaries, and their motivational speaking fees, and their high-paying after-office salaries for bribing their replacements in office. Are you really trying to fob off the excuse that there are actual alternatives?

I'm not saying that voters are not partially to blame. Because too often we vote based solely on our own selfish agendas, and we're willing to elect any scumbag that says he'll act to further our personal petty desires. And that's on us. But the bribery and wholesale corruption that results from it is not our doing. WE don't have the money.

 

[Revoltingest]

No they don't.

If that's so, then the problem is disinterest in governance.
That means government by oligarchy the default.
So your complaint should be about voters, not the default option.

What planet are you living on???

Not yours, apparently.

There are no candidates with "different voting records" because they ALL vote as they are told to vote by the people who pay for their campaigns, and for their in-office perks, and for their travel "junkets" and their do-nothing family member's salaries, and their motivational speaking fees, and their high-paying after-office salaries for bribing their replacements in office. Are you really trying to fob off the excuse that there are actual alternatives?

I'm not saying that voters are not partially to blame. Because too often we vote based solely on our own selfish agendas, and we're willing to elect any scumbag that says he'll act to further our personal petty desires. And that's on us. But the bribery and wholesale corruption that results from it is not our doing. WE don't have the money.

Do you vote or not?
Why?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Such cynicism.
People get what they vote for.
The kind of politicians we elect behave exactly according
to their records in office. We could elect alternatives, but
we deliberately choose not to.
Look at this election....Biden vs Trump, especially the former.
Democrats could've picked someone with a different record
to run....someone progressive & anti-war. But they didn't.
It's a democracy. Trump's supporters want him in office.

People just hate the results when they don't get their way.
But tis easier to blame some boogie man, eg, the oligarchy,
the patriarchy, the military industrial complex, than to
accept responsibility for one's own vote & political party.

A lot of is based on the premise that something is too big to fail. Its a distinct red flag of whos really in charge.

 

[Stevicus]

Such cynicism.
People get what they vote for.
The kind of politicians we elect behave exactly according
to their records in office. We could elect alternatives, but
we deliberately choose not to.
Look at this election....Biden vs Trump, especially the former.
Democrats could've picked someone with a different record
to run....someone progressive & anti-war. But they didn't.
It's a democracy. Trump's supporters want him in office.

People just hate the results when they don't get their way.
But tis easier to blame some boogie man, eg, the oligarchy,
the patriarchy, the military industrial complex, than to
accept responsibility for one's own vote & political party.

I think it's more a matter of how people form their opinions and political positions. Some of it is taught at a very early age, either from parents or from school - even before kids are old enough to understand the daily news or the issues of the day. As they get older, they might feel a certain measure of peer pressure from their schoolmates, neighbors, or others in their community.

As you've probably noticed, the same processes of hucksterism go on in the marketplace of ideas, and I'm sure you've also noticed how some people can be quite pushy, aggressive, and even downright hostile towards those who don't agree with them. So, a lot of people simply fold up and give in. As I mentioned upthread, a lot of people simply don't have the backbone to stand up.

 

[Revoltingest]

So, a lot of people simply fold up and give in. As I mentioned upthread, a lot of people simply don't have the backbone to stand up.

People with no backbone or interest in governance
really should leave it up to the oligarchy.

 

[Stevicus]

People with no backbone or interest in governance
really should leave it up to the oligarchy.

I suppose, although a lot of people just go along with the crowd, jump on the bandwagon, or whatever side they think is winning.

Remember the ferryman from The Outlaw Josey Wales? He would either sing "Dixie" or "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" depending on the allegiance of whoever was approaching. Taking the wrong political stance could not only hurt his business, it could endanger his life.

So, a lot of people are simply wishy-washy fence-sitters. Kind of a pity, actually, as it tends to have a deleterious effect on democratic systems.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Millennials all over the world have lost faith in democracy | News | The Times
(Paywall) (me neither)

Globally, a majority of people aged in their 20s and 30s have lost faith in democracy as a means of running a society. This is particularly pronounced in the so-called "Anglo-Saxon" countries.

Where is this taking us?
What are the causes?

Thoughts....

Democracy has already been declining around the world. I think what is really democracy is what the young folks want. The far right don't like the idea of democracy anyway because they like society hierarchies, not everyone having a say. They want the rural area skewed to have more power than the cities because they know most city folk vote Democrat. My opinion, only.

 

[Sand Dancer]

The United States is not a democracy. It is a Democratic Republic. That is why you can have a majority vote and still lose. The system was set up to work that way from the founding of the country.

We are a mix of democracy and republic, which is pretty brilliant.

 

[Sand Dancer]

The solution is very simple. All we have to do is vote out every incumbent in every election regardless of party, unless and until we get someone in office that will ACT (not just talk) to stop the legalized bribery. When we are willing to do this, the bribery will be stopped.

That is hard to find. People in power tend to want to keep it, by hook or by crook.

 

[Friend of Mara]

Corruption has become more wide spread. Information is easier to obtain and spread. More people are informed than before. But now we have a wonderfully crafted dystopian hellscape where news sources are echo-chambered and distributed dishonestly. To quote someone I disagree with on nearly everything "fake news". So now most people know that elections are a sham. The people in control ultimately isn't the government but the ones who fund their election efforts. And when the same people fund both candidates what happens? Especially in the US you get polarized "vote for us because the other is evil incarnate" and we believe them. Voting isn't about change its now about mitigating harm. Vote republican or you will poor forever and they will kill babies! Vote democrat or you will be poor forever and they will make it illegal to be gay! I don't think the harm provided by both parties are equal mind you but as someone who is far further left than democrat I can safely say institutionalized change in meaningful ways is very very far off.

The idea that a small group of whiners is going to make any significant impact to the USA the way it is structured is nonsense from the start. They just aren't, and worse they're the age group with the least impact. Mills don't have money, property, or any other resources that would make someone listen to them other than to just throw a tantrum. And, we all know how well that goes -- you shock people, they get afraid, then they start looking for Uncle Sam to put his boot up your ***.

You are correct in many respects here. Millennials don't have the economic capacity to make changes the old fashion way. I believe this was purposefully engineered.

Just blind leading the blind as always. They want impossible things to impossible ends. Any lasting system improves via iterations not radical shifts. Radical shifts just create a new system with new problems, probably worse than the one you already spent 200+ years streamlining.

The electoral college was specifically created to prevent a condition known as the 'tyranny of the majority' where a bunch of politically witless band-wagoners throw caution to the wind and vote for endless stupidity and thereby destroy the country. It seems to be working as intended, lol.

Then it has failed us many times up to this point. Especially 4 years ago.

I respect Mils, but I know they don't have the life experience to make sound choices other than to just go with cliques and what sounds good. I was young too once and I am well aware of the deficiencies that youth adds as a dynamic to every scenario. They'll grow up too, and then we'll know their real views. Right now, they're mostly doing what their friends or someone else told them. If you can't run a family, keep a home, or hold a decent job I don't think I'll be taking advice from you. But, I might later after you do have a life and skin in the game. =D

What is "young"? At what age does a person obtain your seal of approval? Or is it just till they agree with you? I would argue those who don't have wealth have more skin in the game than anyone else. As often is the case historically speaking.

 

[Mindmaster]

You are correct in many respects here. Millennials don't have the economic capacity to make changes the old fashion way. I believe this was purposefully engineered.

I dunno, I think it's fair in the sense that those who are listened to the most have the most skin in the game. (aka something to lose) But, that's every country TBH it's not a US specific issue. And, I realize the Mills make some valid points, but I also realize it takes time for people to shift their views and no amount of excessive display is going to change that either. People have to warm up to changes, and the more you understand that the more likely you're going to be doing the right thing yourself.

Then it has failed us many times up to this point. Especially 4 years ago.

If Obama and crew had it their way you'd be speaking Chinese in 20 years. There are many things to dislike about Trump, but his job performance isn't an issue. He's USA first, and that's what any country needs. Obama, Biden, and crew... They're all compromised and owned by foreign interests -- I absolutely don't even _care_ what their politics are.

What is "young"? At what age does a person obtain your seal of approval? Or is it just till they agree with you? I would argue those who don't have wealth have more skin in the game than anyone else. As often is the case historically speaking.

I think you can be a child and still be over 35, lol. I consider you a child until you have a life (A wife/husband, kids, a career, and some sort of long term life goals. You live for someone besides yourself IRL. And no, those Internet people don't count.). If your life priorities are rotting on an xbox all day while living in your mothers basement even if you're 35 you're still a child.

I don't dislike the children regardless of their biological age, but I also don't take their input on issues because I know they have a skewed perspective due to being so isolated from the things that make the world work. Skewed by a lack of experience, not my judgments of their opinions and so on. Just to be really clear... We all need our rough edges worked out and the only way to do that is to hone them on the whetstone of life.

 

[Mindmaster]

What was an eye opener for me was the declaration that the US is now considered as an Olagarchy.

The U.S. is an Oligarchy? The Research, Explained

We are no longer a representative republic nor a democracy for that matter and not even a shot was fired.

I could agree with this, but ultimately the electorate still lies with the people. I mean look at Trump's rise to the Presidency for evidence. The media hates him and so do all the rich people, even though he's done nothing but good for everyone on the money front. Personally, I find it nonsensical -- Trump has given me some of the best financial years of my life. Money isn't everything, but it's almost everything, lol. I am also an excessively BIG fan of his actions in the middle east and trying to get all the parties to peace out. I'll back anyone that does that... ANYONE.

 

[Friend of Mara]

I dunno, I think it's fair in the sense that those who are listened to the most have the most skin in the game. (aka something to lose) But, that's every country TBH it's not a US specific issue. And, I realize the Mills make some valid points, but I also realize it takes time for people to shift their views and no amount of excessive display is going to change that either. People have to warm up to changes, and the more you understand that the more likely you're going to be doing the right thing yourself.

Yeah. I understand revolution doesn't happen overnight. Sometimes it does but only on snap points. And usually snap points are when consensus has drifted too far away from the established power and the power then successfully attempts to put down the new way of thinking. Its one reason I'm voting for Biden rather than throwing my vote away on Howie.

If Obama and crew had it their way you'd be speaking Chinese in 20 years. There are many things to dislike about Trump, but his job performance isn't an issue. He's USA first, and that's what any country needs. Obama, Biden, and crew... They're all compromised and owned by foreign interests -- I absolutely don't even _care_ what their politics are.

I think we would have to de-layer several points of contention to even begin to argue this point. So I will let it be.

I think you can be a child and still be over 35, lol. I consider you a child until you have a life (A wife/husband, kids, a career, and some sort of long term life goals. You live for someone besides yourself IRL. And no, those Internet people don't count.). If your life priorities are rotting on an xbox all day while living in your mothers basement even if you're 35 you're still a child.

I don't dislike the children regardless of their biological age, but I also don't take their input on issues because I know they have a skewed perspective due to being so isolated from the things that make the world work. Skewed by a lack of experience, not my judgments of their opinions and so on. Just to be really clear... We all need our rough edges worked out and the only way to do that is to hone them on the whetstone of life.

It just seems that at least some of your contentions are arbitrary. Marriage and a family especially since that is happening later in life on average and more and more often not at all. I do agree some maturity needs to happen. I enjoy the energy and focus the younger ones have. But the vast majority of millennials are late 20's and 30's. I myself will be turning the big 3O soon. I disagree heavily with the characterization that leftist philosophy is inherently childish. I have a job and home. All of my friends have jobs and homes with different levels of financial success. However having done arguably far more than our parents before us we are not as well off as they were at that age. This is no accident and is certainly not a product of flippantness or incompetency in my generation.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I could agree with this, but ultimately the electorate still lies with the people. I mean look at Trump's rise to the Presidency for evidence. The media hates him and so do all the rich people, even though he's done nothing but good for everyone on the money front. Personally, I find it nonsensical -- Trump has given me some of the best financial years of my life. Money isn't everything, but it's almost everything, lol. I am also an excessively BIG fan of his actions in the middle east and trying to get all the parties to peace out. I'll back anyone that does that... ANYONE.

The thing is we only see the media portrayal. Its another thing to see the real man behind the screen.

More often than not I've learned so far in life that things tend to not always be as they seem.

Its why I like to put as many pieces on the table to get the best overall picture as best as one can.