Demons, is there any evidence they even exist?

[Left Coast]

I have one more question, not to pressure you, but I have known people (here and otherwise) that loudly proclaim their association with demons and who are witches. When I was young I was not a believer in God or demons in particular. I worked at a publishing house and the receptionist was very nice and she told me she was a witch. I had never heard of such a thing outside of cartoons so I was surprised. She spoke of it as if it were something normal.

In general being a "witch" indicates you're a modern pagan, ie someone who probably worships nature/multiple deities and engages in what they believe are magical rituals. It has nothing to do with the Christian concept of demons or Satan.

 

[ElishaElijah]

In general being a "witch" indicates you're a modern pagan, ie someone who probably worships nature/multiple deities and engages in what they believe are magical rituals. It has nothing to do with the Christian concept of demons or Satan.

It does according to the Bible, what spirits are you dealing with then if not demonic? Even the liquor store advertises spirits.

 

[YoursTrue]

In general being a "witch" indicates you're a modern pagan, ie someone who probably worships nature/multiple deities and engages in what they believe are magical rituals. It has nothing to do with the Christian concept of demons or Satan.

So are you saying that demons DO exist? I haven't read all your posts, sorry if you've answered that before. Of course, multiple deities is another subject. Are they seen, or not seen? As far as demons, concept or no concept, let's see -- some here don't believe unseen persons exist. Demons or deities.

 

[YoursTrue]

Do you really think this is a metaphor? Come on

“Then they came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Gadarenes. And when He had come out of the boat, immediately there met Him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no one could bind him, not even with chains, because he had often been bound with shackles and chains. And the chains had been pulled apart by him, and the shackles broken in pieces; neither could anyone tame him. And always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying out and cutting himself with stones. When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him. And he cried out with a loud voice and said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God that You do not torment me.” For He said to him, “Come out of the man, unclean spirit!” Then He asked him, “What is your name?” And he answered, saying, “My name is Legion; for we are many.” Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country. Now a large herd of swine was feeding there near the mountains. So all the demons begged Him, saying, “Send us to the swine, that we may enter them.” And at once Jesus gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits went out and entered the swine (there were about two thousand); and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the sea. So those who fed the swine fled, and they told it in the city and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that had happened. Then they came to Jesus, and saw the one who had been demon-possessed and had the legion, sitting and clothed and in his right mind. And they were afraid. And those who saw it told them how it happened to him who had been demon-possessed, and about the swine. Then they began to plead with Him to depart from their region. And when He got into the boat, he who had been demon-possessed begged Him that he might be with Him. However, Jesus did not permit him, but said to him, “Go home to your friends, and tell them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He has had compassion on you.” And he departed and began to proclaim in Decapolis all that Jesus had done for him; and all marveled.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭20‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The Bible shows the demonic spiritual realm all the way till the end of this age, how can you as a believer say you don’t know if this is an event in the life of Jesus or a metaphor?

I'd like to see the answer to your question also. (makes one wonder...)

 

[YoursTrue]

In general being a "witch" indicates you're a modern pagan, ie someone who probably worships nature/multiple deities and engages in what they believe are magical rituals. It has nothing to do with the Christian concept of demons or Satan.

P.S. I didn't say it has anything to do with Christian concept of demons or Satan in that context of the question. Rather, do you believe unseen spirits that can influence people exist?

 

[Left Coast]

It does according to the Bible, what spirits are you dealing with then if not demonic? Even the liquor store advertises spirits.View attachment 73337

In general they're deities or supernatural entities who are not demonic or evil. Yes, I know you think they're all demons. I was explaining what the terms meant from their perspective.

 

[Left Coast]

So are you saying that demons DO exist? I haven't read all your posts, sorry if you've answered that before. Of course, multiple deities is another subject. Are they seen, or not seen? As far as demons, concept or no concept, let's see -- some here don't believe unseen persons exist. Demons or deities.

I'm not saying any of those things. I was just explaining what the term "witch" meant. I'm not a witch.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm not saying any of those things. I was just explaining what the term "witch" meant. I'm not a witch.

It doesn't matter whether you are or are not. I am asking basically if you believe unseen spirits can communicate with certain persons. Do you know or what do you think?

 

[Left Coast]

It doesn't matter whether you are or are not. I am asking basically if you believe unseen spirits can communicate with certain persons. Do you know or what do you think?

I strongly doubt it. I'm open to the idea if people have good evidence for it, but at this point I don't see it.

 

[ElishaElijah]

In general they're deities or supernatural entities who are not demonic or evil. Yes, I know you think they're all demons. I was explaining what the terms meant from their perspective.

Well, that’s not what people who have come out of the occult and are now saved have shared in their testimonies. According to ex witches and warlocks, yes they made deals with the devil. No problem when they were blaspheming God and cursing people but now that they’re believers they’re somehow not credible. To this I definitely see the demonic slanderer at work trying to keep people from the Truth.

CHRISTIAN VIDEOS - Christian Testimonies - CHRISTIAN VIDEOS - Christian Testimonies

www.bibliatodo.com

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, a phenomena is observed which is evidence of an effect produced by some unknown cause. The point being made is, that cause is unknown so we currently can't say what that evidence is evidence of other than some unknown cause. We can't say its evidence of some known cause not yet correlated because that evidence doesn't seem to fit the known effects of any known cause. We either have to relook at how we think known causes cause known effects and adjust accordingly or we have to presume an entirely knew unknown cause and then formulate how that cause relates to what is already known.
Old theories MAY have to be scrapped and new ones MAY have to be formulated.
Its pretty presumptuous to assume that the newly discovered cylinder must fit into the square hole we think the universe must be defined by.

There is a sqare hole. We have evidence of that. We need to find the cylinder with exact diameter to fit in that hole. That is what science is doing all the time, choosing one theory over the other to get as close to the diameter that is necessary. What is not going under a re-look in science?
(It is with religions that they do not want a re-look. Martin Luther was vehemently against a re-look. Islam and Christianity too. If it was a vergin birth then, it was. If it was resurrection, then it was. If Mohammad went to heaven to meet the prophets on a white animal, then it was. No re-look permitted).

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

My mom is going through this now and social services said that I would have to get the courts involved to get her help because she refuses but that would put my life in danger so I just have to put up with it, I guess.

We were lucky in the sense that somehow, on some level deep deep down, my wife understood that something wasn't adding up.
So there was a very very small, but very real, realization that there was something wrong with her.

Such is hugely important for treatment and I managed to focus and zoom in on that and use it to make her seek help and take her meds.
If such a seed isn't present and the person indeed refuses any and all help... then I'm afraid that idd the only way to go is forced commitment into a psychiatric hospital.

She will curse you and say extremely nasty things. But you need to remember that will pass. After a month or two, she'll thank you and apologize.

Mentally and emotionally, the people around a psychotic person suffer greatly. In my experience it is extremely underestimated what kind of impact this has on loved ones. I also required quite some time after that episode to properly process it all and give it a place in my own mind.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

@Kelly of the Phoenix I've been close to some that think the TV is talking to them, etc. Usually these people are on heavy drugs, perhaps of the psychotropic

It has been my experience with people that hear voices that some of them have taken lots of drugs of the legal and illegal kind, also get involved in mystical experiences.

Psychosis induced by drug use is of a different order then psychosis induced by psychiatric disorders.

I can tell you my wife didn't use anything, nor did she pop any pills she didn't have to. She wasn't on medication of any kind.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I am going to comment on this because I am personally affronted by the assumptions behind it. Mental illness is mental illness. It is not demon possession. This medieval Christian attitude is backward and cruel. Does Prozac or Abilify banish demons? No, they correct the workings of a misfiring brain. I was once told by a Christian, while I was having a mental health crisis that I was possessed by demons. It was callous, ridiculous, and not helpful in the least. Stop equating mental illness with demon possession.

The very mention of "insane asylum" instead of "psychiatric hospital" already tells us everything we need to know.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I wouldn't express it as such albeit you have a point.
Some can be possession of demons but most is just imbalances in the brain.

Some physical issues are spiritual in nature most are simply physical issues.

Thank you for asking for clarification

Evidence?

How do you tell the difference?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I mean no disrespect to Dan, and it's not personal, but I'm not interested in how he interprets anything…

I know this…. But I wish you’d have let him respond, because I’m interested. That’s why I addressed this post to him. And asked what he thought. Questions are useful in getting a person to examine their own beliefs.

From reading your well-thought-out posts, it’s obvious you’re not “mistaken”, delusional, or an addict. And you don’t present any “second-hand” accounts; yours are firsthand experiences.

It should carry some weight.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

This isn't about what I think. I can neither prove that certain things exists or don't, but I admit that. What the tactic of asking me what I think of some other issue is used for is to avoid the burden of proof that others cannot meet and shift it to someone else. Me in this case. You or I are not the topic of this thread. It is a thread about the evidence for the existence of demons. Evidence that no one has provided and clearly cannot. That is the only thing that should be being discussed. So what I think about another poster or their interests is irrelevant.

I've seen similar strategies and actions employed by posters of certain groups that are consistent and across the board. The plethora of logical fallacies that you, me and others are assailed with covers most of those known, formal and informal. Pointing those out is addressed as an insult when it is not. I've been told I was insulting when there was no insult except that which I received for that matter. I have seen the same happen to others. In some cases, it seems to me as if all I am going to get are childish retorts and run around. Again, I have seen the same evidence of it happening to others. Passive aggressive attempts to demean to do it without penalty. The shifting of the burden of proof is common. If successful, it relieves the shifter of defending their position and they can now go on the attack. That is the point of continually employing this strategy. Keep the conversation alive so the particular opinion is always out there as the "default explanation" and turn the attack.

I'm not really interested in abetting the swap and relieving those that cannot meet their burden of proof for their claims. I'm not interested in listening to those that use such tactics instead of the honorable debate these things should be. I don't perceive any real interest in what I think. I see it as another ploy.

What I believe or do not believe is unimportant to what is claimed and consistently failed to be given support by those that are supposed to hold a position where such tactics should be an anathema. But instead, rely on the worst features of debate to be sustained.

I wouldn't council anyone to not believe what they believe. I don't pretend to hold that authority. I hold beliefs of my own. But what is claimed in the public space, that is open for debate and discussion and a demand for evidence to sustain the claims.

I appreciate your response and I think we would have an honest and friendly discussion if it ever came to that.

My tactic was only to get you to think and use reasoning on the subject, based on her firsthand experiences.

It’s no bag of elbows.

 

[Kenny]

Evidence?

How do you tell the difference?

Sometimes it is pretty obvious, like someone who was at my wife's home before we were married. It would take about 4 to 5 men to hold her down while her voice changed to a man's voice. My wife's mom would talk to the demon.

Sometimes you just know! Remembering a man who came in the church and I just kinda knew. He couldn't stay there after I started preaching - got up and left. (I should have taken authority over it). Later 2 other people shared with me saying along the lines of "You know that person that came to the service? I think he was demon possessed"

When you are spiritually sensitive, you just can sense it.

There are, of course, moments when people are "casting out a demon" and there was no demon to cast out.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sometimes it is pretty obvious, like someone who was at my wife's home before we were married. It would take about 4 to 5 men to hold her down while her voice changed to a man's voice. My wife's mom would talk to the demon.

Anecdotes like that won't do.
But I'll play along. How does that mean it's a "demon"?

Sometimes you just know! Remembering a man who came in the church and I just kinda knew. He couldn't stay there after I started preaching - got up and left. (I should have taken authority over it). Later 2 other people shared with me saying along the lines of "You know that person that came to the service? I think he was demon possessed"

When you are spiritually sensitive, you just can sense it.

There are, of course, moments when people are "casting out a demon" and there was no demon to cast out.

Again with anecdotes and "feelings" that play right into the cards of confirmation bias.

So in other words, you have no way to objectively tell the difference. It's all just about what you "believe" to be the case?

 

[Kenny]

Anecdotes like that won't do.
But I'll play along. How does that mean it's a "demon"?


Again with anecdotes and "feelings" that play right into the cards of confirmation bias.

So in other words, you have no way to objectively tell the difference. It's all just about what you "believe" to be the case?

Not an issue. I'm not trying to convince you that there are demons. I was just answering as per my signature.

To be fair, our baseline is scripture. It just happens that our "anecdotal evidence" matches with no issues on our side.