Demons, is there any evidence they even exist?

[DNB]

And there is. And that explanation doesn't only go for humans, it goes for pretty much ALL animals that aren't at the top of the food chain, as ALL such animals have a tendency to be superstitious.

And that explanation is that all such animals have a tendency to engage in type 2 cognition errors: the false positive.
It's a survival mechanism.

The classic illustration of this is simple:

You hear a noise in the bushes. Is it just the wind? Or is it a dangerous predator sneaking up on you?
If you assume it is a predator, you run. If it turns out you were correct, you live.
If you assume it is just the wind, you stay put. If it turns out you were wrong, you are lunch and thus die.
If you stick around to gather more intel before drawing a conclusion, and it turns out to be a predator, you are also lunch and thus die.

If you run assuming there is a dangerous predator and there wasn't one, then you engaged in a type 2 cognition error and lost nothing. You instead just had a healthy run.
If you run assuming there is a dangerous predator and there is indeed one, then you just managed to escape.

Runners have the survival advantage here.

Natural selection throughout history has favored individuals with a tendency to engage in the false positive, because sometimes, their unfounded assumption turned out correct which made them live.

Another aspect of this behavior is also the tendency to infuse agency in otherwise random events.
You hear a noise and you don't just assume it is a dangerous predator (= an agent), but ALSO that that predator is sneaking up on YOU.
It could also just be a harmless rabbit looking for food in the bush with no intention to coming out of it into your sights.

However, that isn't the default assumption. The default assumption is that there is an agent out there and that it is all about YOU. That the agent is targeting YOU.

Such cognition errors form the very basis for the invention of entities where there aren't any.




Says the guy who seemingly has no clue that there are other social species out there with their own sense of morals, social conduct and social contracts.

The fact that you gave several scenarios, and that some of the conclusions drawn had either some semblance of truth, or was entirely true, shows that some are more perceptive than others. Your anecdote was limited, by design, in that details were left out i.e. the volume and sustain of the noise, the environment, the nature and character of the runner, etc...

Meaning, life and the universe is presented before all of us, and we all make our assessment as to the catalyst and source of all that we see, feel and hear. Some feel that there are reasons to 'run', others feel that we must face the facts, others feel something else.
Wisdom and perception lead to the truth of the matter, in that not all get it right.

I see the symptoms, and declare that God and demons exist. And, therefore act accordingly

 

[DNB]

No, every human does not engage in reckless behaviour. I do not. Maybe you're speaking about yourself, I don't know.

You'll have to demonstrate that "spiritual forces" actually exist.

For the flippin' upteenth time: Spiritual forces influence and affect man's logical capabilities.

 

[Kenny]

Instead of responding to @SkepticThinker with a constructive, well-thought-out argument, you resort to an ad hominem.

By this time, after using well-though-out arguments to no avail, it is my last resort.

 

[Audie]

For the flippin' upteenth time: Spiritual forces influence and affect

Still flippin' just saying things

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Human beings are not invisible, but spirit creatures are.

Not merely "invisible".
Magnetic fields are "invisible".
Radiation is "invisible".


"spirit creatures" are not just "invisible"... They are undetectable.

As such, they are indistinguishable from non-existent things.

As the saying goes: The non-existent and the undetectable, look very much alike.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

opinion

Facts aren't opinions.

opinion

Facts aren't opinions.

Flat earth statement.

?????

At this point you are just in circular thinking.

Projection.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The fact that you gave several scenarios, and that some of the conclusions drawn had either some semblance of truth, or was entirely true, shows that some are more perceptive than others. Your anecdote was limited, by design, in that details were left out i.e. the volume and sustain of the noise, the environment, the nature and character of the runner, etc...

It's just a simplistic illustration to make it clear. What you are doing now is just nitpicking.
This is stuff that goes way beyond such examples. It goes hand in hand with pattern seeking and assuming causality where there is only mere random correlation.
It all fits into the same psychological concept of cognition errors. Couple that with the concept of "counting the hits and ignoring the misses" and you have the perfect feeding ground for magical thinking and superstition.

There's a wonderful experiment with friggin' pigeons that illustrates this beautifully. They are put in a cage with a mechanism that ejects food at random times. There is nothing the pigeon can do to make the food come out. It's totally random.
The pigeons are left like that for a while. After a while, all of them start to exhibit strange behavior. One is constantly spinning. Another is flapping its right wing. another is constantly headbanging. The reason for this behavior is, once again, cognition errors. Confusing random correlation with causality.

A pigeon flaps his right wing and a second later, food was ejected. The pigeon now falsely concludes that flapping his right wing is what made the food come out.

Humans are not the only pattern seeking animal. Pretty much all of us animals do that. Some to a larger extent then others.

Meaning, life and the universe is presented before all of us, and we all make our assessment as to the catalyst and source of all that we see, feel and hear. Some feel that there are reasons to 'run', others feel that we must face the facts, others feel something else.

And natural selection will favor runners in the big picture. They are the ones that will survive should the noise be a predator.

Wisdom and perception lead to the truth of the matter, in that not all get it right.

I see the symptoms, and declare that God and demons exist. And, therefore act accordingly

And by doing so, you completely fit the explanation above: cognition errors; magical thinking; assuming causality when its just mere correlation

Couple all that with confirmation bias in context of a priori religious belief, et voila.....

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

For the flippin' upteenth time: Spiritual forces influence and affect man's logical capabilities.

For the flippin' upteent time: this is a just a claim. A claim that you ONLY make because you already believe such religiously.
There is NOTHING objective and / or independently verifiable that leads to this conclusion. NOTHING.

 

[Kenny]

Facts aren't opinions.

You haven't given any facts. You have offered unsubstantiated opinions and declarations without support.

 

[Audie]

For the flippin' upteent time: this is a just a claim. A claim that you ONLY make because you already believe such religiously.
There is NOTHING objective and / or independently verifiable that leads to this conclusion. NOTHING.

Why don't people with the defect of just
saying things turn onto themselves their anger and frustration
at being scorned, and try to improve themselves?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You haven't given any facts. You have offered unsubstantiated opinions and declarations without support.

Nope. It's a fact that the bible contains a bunch of claims and that claims require evidence (and aren't evidence of themselves)
It's also a fact that at some point the compilation of the bible happened through handpicking what would be included and what not.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why don't people with the defect of just
saying things turn onto themselves their anger and frustration
at being scorned, and try to improve themselves?

Because that would entail questioning themselves and opening their minds to the possibility that what they believe just might be incorrect.

"upholding the faith" is all that matters to them.
If their faith is actually rationally justified, is irrelevant (to them).

 

[Audie]

Because that would entail questioning themselves and opening their minds to the possibility that what they believe just might be incorrect.

"upholding the faith" is all that matters to them.
If their faith is actually rationally justified, is irrelevant (to them).

Maybe our friend would like to comment.

I have noticed that faith is a highest virtue.
Hold unto the Faith no matter what, and you shalt
ha e your reward.

I get that. But then what I see here is people
effectively claiming to be infallible, not just in
their bible- readin' but in nonsense they make up.

 

[Kenny]

Nope. It's a fact that the bible contains a bunch of claims and that claims require evidence (and aren't evidence of themselves)
It's also a fact that at some point the compilation of the bible happened through handpicking what would be included and what not.

Again... you aren't offering supportive facts, what you are offering is your viewpoint (which I support in you having). We see the letters as a legal deposition supportive by previous TaNaKh statements as well as multiple views of other eye-witnesses. Then we have Luke who then also took their depositions and wrote a compilation of the evidence.

 

[Kenny]

Nope. It's a fact that the bible contains a bunch of claims and that claims require evidence (and aren't evidence of themselves)
It's also a fact that at some point the compilation of the bible happened through handpicking what would be included and what not.

Again, as noted, you are offering a viewpoint but not substantiated.

 

[SkepticThinker]

For the flippin' upteenth time: Spiritual forces influence and affect man's logical capabilities.

You can say it as many times as you want. I still need evidence.

 

[Soandso]

Yes, there is evil within us all .. some people are not successful in their struggle against evil,
or maybe don't even try.

Well, I guess what I mean by personal demons is just things we don't like about ourselves or things that haunt us that we fight against. If I suffered ptsd from combat, a personal demon of mine might be living with the memory that I saw my best friends torn to shreds in front of me. A lesser one might be trying to stop biting my nails. The struggle is real

..what do you mean "mundane"?
Human beings are not invisible, but spirit creatures are.

They are like us, in that they can be righteous, or devilish.

By mundane I mean natural like plants and animals - things we can see and touch. Demons are supernatural. The only people who seem to be able to see them are people who are already convinced that they exist, it seems to me

Reminds me of the people who work with the flow of chi in yellow bamboo martial arts. The only people that this form of martial arts seems to work on are people who are already convinced that chi is real and the master is able to wield it

 

[muhammad_isa]

Well, I guess what I mean by personal demons is just things we don't like about ourselves or things that haunt us that we fight against. If I suffered ptsd from combat, a personal demon of mine might be living with the memory that I saw my best friends torn to shreds in front of me. A lesser one might be trying to stop biting my nails. The struggle is real.

It is real .. and I would agree that it is not necessarily another creature, visible or non-visible, that causes it.
In any case, blaming satan for why we do something bad does not resolve us of responsibility.

By mundane I mean natural like plants and animals - things we can see and touch. Demons are supernatural. The only people who seem to be able to see them are people who are already convinced that they exist, it seems to me.

Mmm .. in Christianity they are seen as "evil spirits".
In Islam also, with the caveat that mankind can also be devils/demons.
It is not just about behaviour, but more about attitude.

Some people prefer not believing in the unseen.
Their philosophy is a material one, in which they must "see" for themselves.
Clearly though, it is not impossible for unseen things to exist.
We are only human after all .. we can't expect to know everything.

 

[DNB]

Still flippin' just saying things

Still flippin' not getting the point!

 

[DNB]

It's just a simplistic illustration to make it clear. What you are doing now is just nitpicking.
This is stuff that goes way beyond such examples. It goes hand in hand with pattern seeking and assuming causality where there is only mere random correlation.
It all fits into the same psychological concept of cognition errors. Couple that with the concept of "counting the hits and ignoring the misses" and you have the perfect feeding ground for magical thinking and superstition.

There's a wonderful experiment with friggin' pigeons that illustrates this beautifully. They are put in a cage with a mechanism that ejects food at random times. There is nothing the pigeon can do to make the food come out. It's totally random.
The pigeons are left like that for a while. After a while, all of them start to exhibit strange behavior. One is constantly spinning. Another is flapping its right wing. another is constantly headbanging. The reason for this behavior is, once again, cognition errors. Confusing random correlation with causality.

A pigeon flaps his right wing and a second later, food was ejected. The pigeon now falsely concludes that flapping his right wing is what made the food come out.

Humans are not the only pattern seeking animal. Pretty much all of us animals do that. Some to a larger extent then others.





And natural selection will favor runners in the big picture. They are the ones that will survive should the noise be a predator.


And by doing so, you completely fit the explanation above: cognition errors; magical thinking; assuming causality when its just mere correlation

Couple all that with confirmation bias in context of a priori religious belief, et voila.....

You're not appreciating the amount and depth of evidence that, all men all over the world, have drawn their conclusions from.
Your experimental specimen sounds like a 10 year old child, rather than a mature man or woman - by a certain age, all are aware that many things are not what they seem, and therefore only the impetuous and foolish jump to unsubstantiated conclusions. Again, your are describing the naive and immature, not the majority of people over 18 years old.