Demons - Is There Evidence They Exist?

[nPeace]

But that aside, assuming that there is a demonic presence actively operating among us, then is it safe to assume that God is aware of this and knows there are demons influencing and interfering with the lives of God's children? Why allow this? Why let it go on? Are humans just hapless participants, as if we're NPCs in a video game where the demons have all the cheat codes?

I can't reach you by PM, I see.
So, how can I get information to you. It's just a short webpage covering your questions.

In terms of identifying manifestations of evil in human society today, even that can be a bit dicey in practice. Do people choose to be evil, or is something just messed up inside their heads?

In answering your question, I want to involve you, and your view.
So let's first establish first of all, what is evil, and who decides that, since not everyone agrees on what is evil.
For example, some believe in tit for tat - You kill my dog, I kill your cat. Period. No discussion.

In fact, according to your view, that's nature - survival of the fittest.
So, how do we determine evil.

 

[HonestJoe]

You said... Is there anything on that website that directly provides evidence for the existence of demons...?
Are you asking for direct evidence of demons?

Not necessarily, though that would be the implication of you initial claims about increases in crime/chaos in the world and that you have evidence that is cause by demons. Note that just quoting Biblical scripture isn't evidence of anything today.

Evidence is a scientific term so if you're going to present any, you need to do so in a scientific manner (at least vaguely). A good start would be to establish the hypothesis you're presenting evidence for; What exactly are you saying demons are and do, and so what different consequences would we expect to observe if they existed?

 

[nPeace]

Not necessarily, though that would be the implication of you initial claims about increases in crime/chaos in the world and that you have evidence that is cause by demons. Note that just quoting Biblical scripture isn't evidence of anything today.

No one here is "just quoting Biblical scripture" as evidence.

Evidence is a scientific term so if you're going to present any, you need to do so in a scientific manner (at least vaguely).

Really?
Show me that in writing - Evidence is a scientific term.
Then explain what's a scientific manner.

A good start would be to establish the hypothesis you're presenting evidence for; What exactly are you saying demons are and do, and so what different consequences would we expect to observe if they existed?

Oh, it's strawman time, now.
Read the OP again.

 

[HonestJoe]

No one here is "just quoting Biblical scripture" as evidence.

Your OP literally asserted that only a "Bible student" can know what to look for. If you agree that scripture isn't evidence, we can move on to your non-Biblical evidence.

Show me that in writing - Evidence is a scientific term.
Then explain what's a scientific manner.

I don't need to explain how evidence is a scientific term, you're clearly not a idiot. It can be used in other contexts too, but scientific is the implication of your OP. If you're using it in a different way, it's on you to say so.

I did explain what a scientific manner is; You establish the hypothesis you're looking to support and then you present evidence to support it. You've not described any kind of clear hypothesis yet, so any evidence would be pointless regardless. You can't just have evidence, you have evidence for something.

Oh, it's strawman time, now.
Read the OP again.

How is that a strawman? Your OP claimed that anyone who isn't a "Bible student" wouldn't consider the possibility of demons but we're all considering it here, so that issue has been resolved. You then definitively stated that there is evidence for demonic activity. All you have to do now is explain what that evidence actually is.

 

[blü 2]

Will Dark Matter allow itself to be interviewed by you? Can you explain why?

Yes, happy to oblige.

'Dark Matter' is the name of a problem, not a thing.

When we solve the problem, we may ─ depending on the solution ─ be able to name the thing. Or to point to what we'd previously misunderstood or insufficiently described. Or ...

Do you understand why you won't be able to interview demons?

If as you appear to say they're real, no, I have no idea why you can't show them to me. They must leave traces unique to demons since being real they'd interact with reality. We know we have the Dark Matter problem because of the anomalous phenomena we observe and measure, for instance.

It's the demons' total failure to do anything like this that leads me to think they only exist as imaginary / conceptual things, and have no objective existence.

Does that mean, none of them exist?

You can't even tell me what a real demon is, give me a description of a real demon so that if I find a suspect I can determine whether it's a real demon or not. That's why the videos and photos you don't have are so relevant.

Where do you come up with these ideas blu?

By applying reason to the questions. Where do you come up with these ideas? Not unexamined superstition, surely?

 

[Stevicus]

I can't reach you by PM, I see.
So, how can I get information to you. It's just a short webpage covering your questions.

I'm not sure why. I don't think I have them blocked, as I've gotten PMs before.

In answering your question, I want to involve you, and your view.
So let's first establish first of all, what is evil, and who decides that, since not everyone agrees on what is evil.
For example, some believe in tit for tat - You kill my dog, I kill your cat. Period. No discussion.

In fact, according to your view, that's nature - survival of the fittest.
So, how do we determine evil.

In nature, there is no "good" or "evil." If a lion kills its prey, there's no evil in that; it's just the lion operating according to its own instincts, without any thought as to good or evil. That's something that humans came up with, and it's up to humans to define it.

As human societies tend to operate within a legal/political sphere, terms like "good" and "evil" aren't really relevant in any official sense. The state might just look at it in terms of what is legal and illegal, while dealing with individual violations as they come up. On a global level, governments might charge other governments with violations of human rights, violations of international law, etc. But again, this is a human process, and it often doesn't go very well.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I can't reach you by PM, .. It's just a short webpage covering your questions.

If it is just a short web-page, then why so much hullabaloo about it? Just give us the link for it.

 

[viole]

All I was expressing, and I think PureX was too, is that not so long ago, belief in demons was the DEFAULT idea. People for centuries have believed in the existence of these things, and that has no bearing on how we currently view the matter. The point is, THEY believed the "evidence" they were presented with as if there COULD be no other explanation. The most brilliant thinkers in the past believed in demons and evil, etc because it was a part of the fabric of their understanding of the world. It was a convenient lens through which to explain things they did not otherwise understand. Don't you think they realized that no one had ever captured a real live demon? That doesn't mean they didn't see those demonic eyes looking back at them through their fears.

Is that making any sense, or am I wasting my time?

Since I asked for evidence, and not for a history of human beliefs and superstitions, I would tend for the latter.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Ah. I though so.
Two posters on here, have already pointed out that proof and evidence are not the same thing, since they obviously realize that at least five or sis persons seem to be confusing the two,
I said there is evidence. Not proof.
If you are asking for proof, you're in the wrong thread.

OK, agreed.
Show me the evidence that is not proof, then.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Design in nature.

There is no design in nature. In fact, there is a lot of evidence that design-like things can arise via blind mechanisms. All of us, for instance.

Divine education.

What? Does that mean that I educate my sons with Superman, then Superman has evidence?

Qualities / aspects of .spirit.

Where is the evidence of spirits? You are getting circular, now.

Most of which you would not understand... with the present mindset.

Of course, lol. It is like astrology. It works only if you believe in it

So, at the end of the day, no evidence, after all. Not even ordinary one. As expected.

Ciao

- viole

 

[YmirGF]

Since I asked for evidence, and not for a history of human beliefs and superstitions, I would tend for the latter.

I get it that you are expecting a desiccated carcass with an arrow protruding from an eye-socket, but there is a bit more to these types of phenomena due to the huge amount of emotional reasoning involved with them. I do not believe in demons and never have. (Not even a little.) You don't believe in demons and likely never have too. We have critical thinking and modern science to help us sleep better at night. The people in the past did not have the benefit of our modern perspective and so were at the mercy of over-active imaginations, often fuelled by religious disinformation.

I'm just projecting myself into a world three or four hundred years ago. I wouldn't know anything about critical thinking. There was little modern science that had filtered down to the poor and unwashed. There was little education. There would be no lights at night other than from small fireplaces, torches and candles. Social media was a town crier, if the town even had one.

In such a situation, those random bumps in the night could easily take on much darker and sinister proportions. In my view, they didn't have any proof that demons existed either, but they also lacked the modern understanding to put their fears in check, once and for all.

Think of people believing in demons in years gone by as how we perceive Trump's guilt in the modern era. In each situation, in their era, to suggest anything other than the reigning belief would be utterly laughable. In the past, to doubt the existence of demons would make one a laughingstock, much as anyone thinking Trump is not guilty is reduced to a laughingstock these days. Make any sense?

And that is about all I have to say on this topic.

 

[nPeace]

Your OP literally asserted that only a "Bible student" can know what to look for. If you agree that scripture isn't evidence, we can move on to your non-Biblical evidence.

You are mistaken.
One has to use a means of measurement, in any field.
For example, a carpenter, has a measuring line handy.
A merchant has scales... and so forth.

The evidence is not the tool,
The evidence is what the tool measures.
The Bible is a tool in this case, that measures the evidence.

For example. The measuring rod has marks - 1 inch... 2 inches... 1 foot... etc.
The observation of the object does not supply the results - how long, high, wide, etc. it is, for example.
The measuring line does that. You can only guess otherwise.

Likewise, you may guess as to why, what, who... etc.
The Bible has the marks, and is used as te measuring tool.
The only wrench you can throw really, is, is the measuring line accurate?
I'm saying, like the carpenter's measuring line, it is. Hence, I use it.

Would I use it to measure the earth, circumference, or the galaxies? No.
I'm not using it to do what science does.
I'm using it to do what science does not do.

I don't need to explain how evidence is a scientific term, you're clearly not a idiot. It can be used in other contexts too, but scientific is the implication of your OP. If you're using it in a different way, it's on you to say so.

Okay, if you are saying scientific, is using a system of evaluating truth, even if it is not methodological naturalism, I guess I'll see.

I did explain what a scientific manner is; You establish the hypothesis you're looking to support and then you present evidence to support it.

The rigorous scientific method.

You've not described any kind of clear hypothesis yet, so any evidence would be pointless regardless. You can't just have evidence, you have evidence for something.

Let's test that to see if it is true.

Is there evidence for Dark Matter?
Read the first four paragraphs.
Note. Although the scientific community generally accepts dark matter's existence, some astrophysicists, intrigued by specific observations that are not well-explained by ordinary dark matter, argue for various modifications of the standard laws of general relativity.

Now, read the OP again, and see if you noticed anything you missed.
If you don't, I must say, I have to wonder if you aren't trying to find something like a strawman.

How is that a strawman? Your OP claimed that anyone who isn't a "Bible student" wouldn't consider the possibility of demons but we're all considering it here, so that issue has been resolved.

Really? Cool.

You then definitively stated that there is evidence for demonic activity. All you have to do now is explain what that evidence actually is.

Oh boy.
Sigh You know, I think this one is beating you.
Go back to your post here. Now, why would you say anything like that, if you really didn't mean it?
I think you got hit really hard - not only by the evidence, but the fact that you thought you could easily refute it, by isolating the events.
When you met the "wall" - it being a composite sign - you started building these strawman.

The evidence is there. It just isn't easy for you to pull down.

 

[nPeace]

Yes, happy to oblige.

'Dark Matter' is the name of a problem, not a thing.

When we solve the problem, we may ─ depending on the solution ─ be able to name the thing. Or to point to what we'd previously misunderstood or insufficiently described. Or ...

Yes. I know... How long from now?
Demons have been named... long ago.

If as you appear to say they're real, no, I have no idea why you can't show them to me. They must leave traces unique to demons since being real they'd interact with reality. We know we have the Dark Matter problem because of the anomalous phenomena we observe and measure, for instance.

No. Circumstantial evidence does not work like that.
As you should know, if you are into science. There may be more than one explanation, and interpretation.

It's the demons' total failure to do anything like this that leads me to think they only exist as imaginary / conceptual things, and have no objective existence.

So you say.

You can't even tell me what a real demon is, give me a description of a real demon so that if I find a suspect I can determine whether it's a real demon or not. That's why the videos and photos you don't have are so relevant.

I did. You didn't read the OP???

By applying reason to the questions. Where do you come up with these ideas? Not unexamined superstition, surely?

I didn't come up with ideas.
I am just relating the evidence for what has already been known.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It seems I'm far from the only one who didn't find any actual evidence pointing to demons in the OP (or anywhere else).

 

[Alien826]

If as you appear to say they're real, no, I have no idea why you can't show them to me. They must leave traces unique to demons since being real they'd interact with reality. We know we have the Dark Matter problem because of the anomalous phenomena we observe and measure, for instance.

I don't believe in demons either, but there is a perfectly good argument as to why demons might be difficult to detect. It's one I've borrowed from Christian thought.

Demons can operate best if people don't believe in them. If we put everything down to insanity, human nature and so on, nobody is going to oppose them directly. So, if I were a demon I would aim for the minimum necessary intervention. Here's a (totally imaginary) example. A relatively innocuous painter of water colors entered WW1 as a Corporal in the German army. Hitler as we know him emerged at the end of the war. Something changed him. What if it was caused by a demon? No further demonic intervention would be necessary to create the horrors that ensued.

I repeat that this is no more than a mind game on my part, but it would explain why asking to interview demons is a little silly. Maybe they don't want to be identified. And the red suit, horns and pitchfork are purely human inventions I suspect.

 

[nPeace]

I'm not sure why. I don't think I have them blocked, as I've gotten PMs before.

I don't know. I just don't see "Start Conversation" when I hover your user name, and when I click it, I get a page error.
Okay. You PM me, then.

In nature, there is no "good" or "evil." If a lion kills its prey, there's no evil in that; it's just the lion operating according to its own instincts, without any thought as to good or evil. That's something that humans came up with, and it's up to humans to define it.

As human societies tend to operate within a legal/political sphere, terms like "good" and "evil" aren't really relevant in any official sense. The state might just look at it in terms of what is legal and illegal, while dealing with individual violations as they come up. On a global level, governments might charge other governments with violations of human rights, violations of international law, etc. But again, this is a human process, and it often doesn't go very well.

Then, in that worldview, evil does not exist, really.

So, an answer to your question - Do people choose to be evil, or is something just messed up inside their heads? - then, I guess, would be something foreign to you, but perhaps you are interested in what the Bible says.

According to he Bible, there is good and bad / evil.
God sets the standard of what is good, and bad, right and wrong.
So, choosing to go contrary to God, which some have done - not because of their heads being 'messed up', but because of their own self fed pride, is evil.
The Bible als shows that evil can be done without knowledge of good. For example, based on what one is taught, or how they were raised or influenced.

I guess you are more thinking of evil of a sadistic nature.
The book of Genesis, tells us of an account where demons using materialized bodies had relations with women, and produced hybrid offspring.
The Bible describes the result of their presence, this way.
(Genesis 6:5) . . .Jehovah saw that man’s wickedness was great on the earth and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time.
(Genesis 6:11) . . .the earth had become ruined in the sight of the true God, and the earth was filled with violence. . .

There's also the accounts at Mark 5:1-16
These accounts harmonize with Revelation 12:9-12, in showing the link between sadistic evil, and demonic influence.
Were back to the OP.

 

[nPeace]

If it is just a short web-page, then why so much hullabaloo about it? Just give us the link for it.

I don't think you understand.

 

[nPeace]

OK, agreed.
Show me the evidence that is not proof, then.

Ciao

- viole

I did.
You are still looking for proof.
How do I know. You repeated the question, althugh the answer has not changed, and you have not explained what evidence is.

 

[nPeace]

There is no design in nature. In fact, there is a lot of evidence that design-like things can arise via blind mechanisms. All of us, for instance.

"design-like?"
Why is it "design-like"? It's evidence of design in nature. It looks designed because it is design(ed).

What? Does that mean that I educate my sons with Superman, then Superman has evidence?

No. Ha Ha.

Where is the evidence of spirits? You are getting circular, now.

No. I said spirit. Not spirits.

Of course, lol. It is like astrology. It works only if you believe in it

So, at the end of the day, no evidence, after all. Not even ordinary one. As expected.

Ciao

- viole

No. For the person who doesn't know what evidence is, and would accept only proof for such things, this conclusion would be expected.

 

[nPeace]

I don't believe in demons either, but there is a perfectly good argument as to why demons might be difficult to detect. It's one I've borrowed from Christian thought.

Demons can operate best if people don't believe in them. If we put everything down to insanity, human nature and so on, nobody is going to oppose them directly. So, if I were a demon I would aim for the minimum necessary intervention. Here's a (totally imaginary) example. A relatively innocuous painter of water colors entered WW1 as a Corporal in the German army. Hitler as we know him emerged at the end of the war. Something changed him. What if it was caused by a demon? No further demonic intervention would be necessary to create the horrors that ensued.

I repeat that this is no more than a mind game on my part, but it would explain why asking to interview demons is a little silly. Maybe they don't want to be identified. And the red suit, horns and pitchfork are purely human inventions I suspect.

I do appropriate having someone on this thread who is a skeptic with a open mind, or at least some reasonableness.
It demonstrates that other skeptics can be open minded and reasonable... if they wanted to... or if they were.