Demons - Is There Evidence They Exist?

[Madmogwai]

The concept of demons is deeply rooted in various cultures, religions, and mythologies throughout history. Different belief systems have described demons as supernatural entities, often associated with evil, malevolence, and the spiritual world. However, proving the existence of demons in an empirical or scientific sense is challenging, as they are typically considered to exist beyond the physical realm.

The absence of verifiable evidence in the scientific community makes it difficult to provide a definitive proof of the existence of demons. Scientific inquiry typically relies on observable, measurable, and repeatable phenomena, which may not be applicable to the realm of the supernatural or spiritual beliefs.

However, it is essential to acknowledge that personal experiences, anecdotes, and religious texts often form the basis for belief in demons. Many individuals claim to have encountered or witnessed demonic activity, attributing it to spiritual or supernatural forces. While these experiences cannot be objectively verified, they hold significant subjective value for those who have gone through them.

 

[blü 2]

Yes. I know... How long from now?
Demons have been named... long ago.

So not a god of the gaps, a demon of the gaps? Very ─ ahm ─ creative!

No. Circumstantial evidence does not work like that.

You mean you have no evidence at all to show they exist outside of imagination?

No surprise. They don't.

Which is to say, you really need those videos and interviews.

I did. You didn't read the OP???

The OP has no photos, no videos, no interviews, NOTHING to suggest demons exist in reality, everything to suggest they only exist as concepts and things imagined. We need a description sufficient to determine whether any real suspect we might find is a genuine demon or not. Is Trump a demon? Or just a very dangerous nutjob?

I didn't come up with ideas.
I am just relating the evidence for what has already been known.

So you believe in the reality of Zeus and Hera, Anu and Belet-Ili, Shiva and Durga, Osiris and Isis, the works?

If not, why not? The evidence is at least as good as anything you've shown.

 

[blü 2]

I don't believe in demons either, but there is a perfectly good argument as to why demons might be difficult to detect. It's one I've borrowed from Christian thought.

Demons can operate best if people don't believe in them. If we put everything down to insanity, human nature and so on, nobody is going to oppose them directly. So, if I were a demon I would aim for the minimum necessary intervention. Here's a (totally imaginary) example. A relatively innocuous painter of water colors entered WW1 as a Corporal in the German army. Hitler as we know him emerged at the end of the war. Something changed him. What if it was caused by a demon? No further demonic intervention would be necessary to create the horrors that ensued.

I repeat that this is no more than a mind game on my part, but it would explain why asking to interview demons is a little silly. Maybe they don't want to be identified. And the red suit, horns and pitchfork are purely human inventions I suspect.

Sounds like a terrific way to send someone round the bend, (Actually, the Hitler file shows the work of Martians, not demons. Their red helmets have two antennae, one on either side, as you know.)

 

[Aupmanyav]

I don't think you understand.

What do I not understand?

 

[HonestJoe]

The Bible is a tool in this case, that measures the evidence.

I don't see how that works. A measuring tool needs some kind of calibration so that anyone using it is measuring in the same way. There is clearly no consistency with how the Bible is used in this way though, even by people with nominally the same beliefs. You can't simple declare something a measuring tool, you first have to demonstrate that it is valid and consistent in it's measurements.

Okay, if you are saying scientific, is using a system of evaluating truth, even if it is not methodological naturalism, I guess I'll see.

A particular system, involving observation, hypothesis, evidence and conclusion. And yes, that system could be theoretically applied to literally any truth. And yes, that system could be applied to literally anything, not just methodological naturalism. The only limitations are our practical capability to apply it, not the system itself.

I can use a thermometer to measure the temperature when I am but I can't use it to measure the temperature where you are. That isn't a failure of the tool or the science behind it, only the fact that I have to be physically present to use it.

Is there evidence for Dark Matter?
Read the first four paragraphs.

The paragraphs that open with "Dark matter is a hypothetical form of matter..."? So if you're suggesting demons are like dark matter (which you keep implying but haven't actually said), you're presenting them as a somewhat abstract hypothetical concept to account for particular observations. There are issues with that though.

First is that isn't consistent with the very specific depiction of demons the word is typically read to refer to, largely based on Christian doctrine (at least in the West). You're not really presenting evidence for demons as people would normally understand, you're presenting evidence for there being something as yet unexplained to account for particular observations.

The other issues is that, unlike for dark matter, there are already reasonable explanations for the observations you're attributing to demons. Dark matter was needed as a hypothesis because the observations were unexplainable any other way. Demons are presented as alternative explanations for already explained phenomena.

When you met the "wall" - it being a composite sign - you started building these strawman.

I've no objection to this "composite sign" concept but that doesn't mean you don't need to present and explain the evidence you're proposing.

The evidence is there. It just isn't easy for you to pull down.

That isn't how it works. You can't just say "there is evidence, you just can't see it". You should still be able to explain what the evidence is and exactly how it accounts for the observations, even if I somehow don't have direct access to that evidence. This is about science, not faith.

 

[viole]

It's evidence of design in nature. It looks designed because it is design(ed).

There is no evidence of design in nature.

No. Ha Ha.

Ergo, your argument is not evidence, either.

No. I said spirit. Not spirits.

There is zero evidence on any spirit, too.

No. For the person who doesn't know what evidence is, and would accept only proof for such things, this conclusion would be expected.

I told you what evidence is. You commented that proof is not required, I agreed. Yet, what you presented still fall short of providing evidence of anything, according to that definition. Unless you count “made up by humans” as a sort of evidence of existence . But feel free to give us your definition, so that we can commit it to rational analysis.

again:

- there is no evidence of any design in nature.
- there is no evidence of spirit. Nor of any spiritual reality whatsoever.
- divine education is hopelessly circular and question begging, as evidence of anything. So, zero evidence, again

what else have you got?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Stevicus]

I don't know. I just don't see "Start Conversation" when I hover your user name, and when I click it, I get a page error.
Okay. You PM me, then.

If it's just to share a link with me, I'm not sure why you can't just post it here. Why does it have to be through PM?

Then, in that worldview, evil does not exist, really.

Not in any religious sense. Nature itself is indifferent. Humans can most definitely commit actions which can be reasonably defined as "evil," though the cause is likely internal or environmental - possibly due to psychological damage, trauma, abuse, mental illness, etc.

So, an answer to your question - Do people choose to be evil, or is something just messed up inside their heads? - then, I guess, would be something foreign to you, but perhaps you are interested in what the Bible says.

According to he Bible, there is good and bad / evil.
God sets the standard of what is good, and bad, right and wrong.
So, choosing to go contrary to God, which some have done - not because of their heads being 'messed up', but because of their own self fed pride, is evil.
The Bible als shows that evil can be done without knowledge of good. For example, based on what one is taught, or how they were raised or influenced.

I guess you are more thinking of evil of a sadistic nature.
The book of Genesis, tells us of an account where demons using materialized bodies had relations with women, and produced hybrid offspring.
The Bible describes the result of their presence, this way.
(Genesis 6:5) . . .Jehovah saw that man’s wickedness was great on the earth and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time.
(Genesis 6:11) . . .the earth had become ruined in the sight of the true God, and the earth was filled with violence. . .

There's also the accounts at Mark 5:1-16
These accounts harmonize with Revelation 12:9-12, in showing the link between sadistic evil, and demonic influence.
Were back to the OP.

As I said above, if we were to assume that all of this is true and accept it at face value, then one can still find flaws in the overall structure, particularly in the designs of nature itself and the weaknesses and vulnerabilities of humans, assuming we were designed that way by the Creator.

It seems biased and one-sided to claim that it was "man's wickedness" that "ruined the earth," when one could use the same information and argue that God didn't do a very good job at creating humans. Of course, religionists balk at such statements, since it seems defiant or blasphemous in their eyes.

If we use a computer analogy, then if God is considered the original programmer, then demons might be considered "hackers" taking advantage of vulnerabilities within the overall program. That would indicate the program itself may be fundamentally flawed.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I do appropriate having someone on this thread who is a skeptic with a open mind, or at least some reasonableness.
It demonstrates that other skeptics can be open minded and reasonable... if they wanted to... or if they were.

I once told you I have an open mind and you flat out called me a liar. Perhaps your POV has something to do with it.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

People ask for evidence of demons.
Is there any evidence? Yes, there is.

First, we must understand what a demon is.
What are demons?

In the Bible, a demon is defined as an angel of God, that is debased. That is, a rebel angel.
An angel, is a higher form of life - a spirit being.
Thus, an angel is a life form, far more intelligent, and far more powerful than anything, known to man.

In another thread, I tried to help an individual grasp that. Was I successful?
Reasonableness is required. Let's see how many are.
Demons

1. are unable to be physically detected, since they are invisible, and not affected by matter (Scientists have not yet observed dark matter directly. It doesn't interact with baryonic matter and it's completely invisible to light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation, making dark matter impossible to detect with current instruments)
2. can affect matter, unknowingly, except one is aware of their design (All galaxies appear to be dominated by [Dark Matter. In] fact, galaxies are thought to form inside immense halos of dark matter)

Simply put... no puny instrument of man can detect a spirit being.
Does that mean, demons do not exist? No more than scientists believe Dark Matter, and Dark Energy are out there.
There are two ways to detect dark matter:

1. Indirect detection: Scientists use indirect methods to detect dark matter. For example, they look for the effects of dark matter on visible matter, such as the gravitational pull of dark matter on stars and galaxies. Another indirect method is to look for gamma rays, the highest energy form of light, which are released when two dark matter particles collide.
2. Direct detection: Scientists are also trying to detect dark matter directly. They are looking for the rare occasions when a dark matter particle collides with an atom in a detector on Earth.

Of course, the scientists are not seeing Dark Matter, but looking for what effects indicate the presence of Dark Matter.
The do so, based on their current understanding of how matter would, or should interact... according to their best educated guess.

The same is true of demons, and detecting their presence.
The Bible reveals knowledge about demons. It tells us, they are in opposition to God, and seeking to lead mankind in opposition to God.
Are they having success? What evidence do we have of their activity?

Recently, in the News... in almost every region, talk has been around the level of increased crime.
Persons say this is due to a range of factors, such as, COVID public health measures such as travel restrictions, school closures, lockdowns, and curfews, COVID sickness and death itself, and less aggressive police practices in response to Black Lives Matter and other organized criticisms of police use of force.

These factors are not applicable in many lands where increasing crime is a problem.
Also, they do not explain the mentality of individuals to commit evil acts on their fellowman.
Appart from this, the world has become increasingly chaotic over the last century.

Bible students recognize the increased lawlessness, and problems as evidence of demonic interference. These are signs they were instructed to expect, and look for.
The Bible says, at Revelation 12.

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.​

12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”​

(Revelation 12:7-12)

So, it's a matter of knowing what to look for. If you aren't a scientist with knowledge of what to look for, you would never consider any notion of Dark Matter.
Likewise, if you are not a Bible student, and don't know what to look for, you would never give thought to the presence or influence of demons.

Thus, despite what skeptics and unbelievers say, there is evidence of demonic activity.

As a professional ghost hunter (someone who get's paid to explain the unexplained) I need to add some context here.

There are three levels of paranormal experiences within the spirit world.

First off you have ghosts which are merely a snapshot in time, it's like watching a video of something that's happened in the past. They are harmless and cannot physically interact with you or their environment but they do have a very limited ability to speak, I have many recordings of me asking questions and receiving answers, usually one or two words at most. They are spirits that have actually moved on but not completely and they are looking for absolution/recognition and can usually be sent away by merely commanding them to do so yet they cannot do that themselves.

Why a part of them still remains here is a mystery I am still looking for an answer to.

The second group are poltergeists. These creatures do have the ability to interact with their environment but not the ability to physically harm you. These are the ones you often see moving chairs around or knocking dishes out of your cupboard. They are mischievous creatures who were never human but exist in a plane somewhere I assume is between Heaven and Hell. For some reason they can sometimes find their way into our world and their entire goal is to cause mischief. It is unknown where they actually exist, how they get here, how long they stay here or anything like that and you cannot communicate with them nor command them to do anything. Out of all three groups there is very little information about these.

The third group are the demons which do have the power to physically harm you, these are the creatures from Hell, fallen angels. However, unlike the other two groups a demon must be summoned in some form for it to have access to you. The most common way they enter into your life is through something like the use of a ouija board.

Their entire intent is to cause you harm and misery and they are extremely dangerous. You can get rid of them but you can't simply command them to go away, a person attempting to get rid of them must open up themselves to their presence which makes this a very dangerous process as they themselves could have the demon manifest in them also. This is why very few are able to get rid of them such as Catholic exorcists who have had specific training on how to resist the demon. Only the power of Jesus can cast out the demon but the demon will fight against it and the person which is why a person needs to learn what their attacks will be.

I have dealt with ghosts and poltergeists but never demons as I am not trained for the latter one.

 

[blü 2]

Only the power of Jesus can cast out the demon

Is that because demons are unique to Christianity?

 

[Tinkerpeach]

Is that because demons are unique to Christianity?

Demons exist in all religions.

 

[blü 2]

Demons exist in all religions.

But, you say, Christians are unique in being able to get rid of them?

 

[Tinkerpeach]

But, you say, Christians are unique in being able to get rid of them?

Not at all.

I am just not familiar with how other religions conduct the practice. I'm sure they all have their methods.

 

[blü 2]

Not at all.

I am just not familiar with how other religions conduct the practice. I'm sure they all have their methods.

So things other than the power of Jesus can indeed deal with demons? Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Trailblazer]

Demons exist in all religions.

Demons do not exist in my religion, the Baha'i Faith.

Baha'is do not believe that there are demons or an entity called Satan. We believe that Satan as referred to in the Bible is an allegory for the lower material nature of man, the evil ego within man.

“God is loving to all. Shall we be unjust or unkind to anyone? Is this allowable in the sight of God? God provides for all. Is it befitting for us to prevent the flow of His merciful provisions for mankind? God has created all in His image and likeness. Shall we manifest hatred for His creatures and servants? This would be contrary to the will of God and according to the will of Satan, by which we mean the natural inclinations of the lower nature. This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan—the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside.”
The Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 286-287

“The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.“
Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295

 

[Tinkerpeach]

Demons do not exist in my religion, the Baha'i Faith.

Baha'is do not believe that there are demons or an entity called Satan. We believe that Satan as referred to in the Bible is an allegory for the lower material nature of man, the evil ego within man.

“God is loving to all. Shall we be unjust or unkind to anyone? Is this allowable in the sight of God? God provides for all. Is it befitting for us to prevent the flow of His merciful provisions for mankind? God has created all in His image and likeness. Shall we manifest hatred for His creatures and servants? This would be contrary to the will of God and according to the will of Satan, by which we mean the natural inclinations of the lower nature. This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan—the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside.”
The Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 286-287

“The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.“
Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295

Wouldn't an evil ego qualify as a demon?

 

[Tinkerpeach]

So things other than the power of Jesus can indeed deal with demons? Thanks for clearing that up.

Correct.

I should have stated that a higher power in each religion is required to remove a demon.

In the statement I made I was only referring to the Christian faith. I should have been more clear.

 

[Trailblazer]

Wouldn't an evil ego qualify as a demon?

Not as a separate entity. The evil ego is within a person who also has a higher spiritual nature, as we all do.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

Not as a separate entity. The evil ego is within a person who also has a higher spiritual nature, as we all do.

That is how demons work, they become part of you.

While they can attack you as a separate entity that is not how they usually work. More than often you don't even realize they are manipulating you.

Not everything they do is out of the Exorcist movie, that is what makes them so dangerous. Remember that they are fallen angels, they know how to manipulate.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is how demons work, they become part of you.

While they can attack you as a separate entity that is not how they usually work. More than often you don't even realize they are manipulating you.

Not everything they do is out of the Exorcist movie, that is what makes them so dangerous. Remember that they are fallen angels, they know how to manipulate.

But what you are saying is that demons are separate entities that attack you and become a part of you. I don't believe that.
Moreover, I am not a Christian, so I don't believe everything that is in the Bible is 'literally true' and I don't believe in fallen angels.

That said, I do believe that spirits who have passed on to the spiritual world can have an effect on this world, but not a negative effect.
I also believe that psychic mediums can assist people still living in this world to communicate with spirits in the spiritual world.
I have also experienced some paranormal activity in my house since my husband passed on about a year ago, and I will probably start a thread about that pretty soon. I never experienced anything paranormal before this.