• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Demystifying Quantum Physics

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Purpose and meaning for one's existence are religious concerns, not mystical. If anything, his comments support the mystical view.
He didn't say purpose and meaning for one's existence. He said:
"To ponder interminably over the reason for one's own existence or the meaning of life in general seems to me, from an objective point of view, to be sheer folly."
There are two seperate things here. One is pondering over the reason for one's own existence, and the other is thinking that there is any meaning to 'life in general".

Notice the "in general" part. Not "reason for one's own existence and the meaning of one's particular life", but reason for one's own existence or the meaning of life in general. Does the mystical view you describe see life as meaningless?


...all of which points to the intuitive mind, which is, as he says, the 'source of all true art and science'. Basicaly, he is saying that, without this view, art and science would be meaningless.

As fascinated as I am at your ability to read into an article you haven't actually read written by an individual whose work you are familiar with it seems almost entirely through quotations picked up from various websites (the last one wasn't even Einstein's), do you ever wonder whether there is a point at which trying to "see" behind the surface meaning is just making stuff up?

First, that "insight" you highlighted? " This insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion" Do you think that Einstein meant this to be a good thing?

Second, science is about discovery. That's the point. What is a mystery now can be discovered through scientific methods (which Einstein used). Where do you get "intuitive" from? Using science to understand mysteries? If that describes an intuitive mind, then every scientist is using intuition. However, as that is not at all what Einstein said, we need not reach that conclusion.

If there were no mysteries, there would be no science. Because you cannot discover anything if everything is known. Do you know a word for something that isn't known? One such word is "mystery".




That's backwards. He is not saying that, but exactly the opposite, and I don't see that he is having a 'religious' experience, but a mystical insight. Contemplation is a kind of meditation. It is primarily intuitive.



con·tem·pla·tion noun \ˌkän-təm-ˈplā-shən, -ˌtem-\
Definition of CONTEMPLATION

1 : concentration on spiritual things as a form of private devotion
2 : a state of mystical awareness of God's being
3: an act of considering with attention
You didn't provide a link. What dictionary is this? Never mind, actually as we can just turn to the Oxford English Dictionary (the most comprehensive and respected dictionary of the English language) and see if it matches up:

"1. The action of beholding, or looking at with attention and thought

2.

a. The action of contemplating or mentally viewing; the action of thinking about a thing continuously; attentive consideration, study. Const. of (also †upon).

b. Without reference to a particular object: Continued thinking, meditation, musing
c. with a and pl.; sometimes, a meditation expressed in writing

3. a.spec. Religious musing, devout meditation. (The earliest sense; very common down to 17th c.)

Hm. So, the primary definition (definition one) has nothing to do with meditation. Nor does the first subentry of the secondary definition. So while it is theoretically possible that Einstein meant it as it was used in the 17th century, we might onsider a few facts:

1) Einstein was an atheist German Jew writing this in 1930, before one could readily find material on mysticism by going online, and before Eastern notions were common in the west.
2) Einstein was a scientist. At the time he was writing, a particular anti-semite who abused Eastern symbols and was fascinated with mysticism was committing one of the worst atrocities in history.
3) The most common use of the term, even today, is "thinking hard" or "musing" not "meditation".
 
Last edited:

godnotgod

Thou art That
Like a shadow exists because of an object that physically exists. That shadow isn't a thing it is a type of representation of something that actually exists. Non-physical is illusory. All forces and energies, matter etc have the same source and the source would be the originator, the thing that existed without having to name itself first. You can't think yourself into existence without first existing.

But you cannot exist without first having not existed. Now, consider the notion that existence/non-existence are cyclical phases like everything else in the universe, since they go together, and that behind the phases is consciousness. Consciousness is pure being, whether there is existence or not.

The non-physical cannot be illusory because it has no appearance itself. It is matter that is illusory, as the manifestation of the non-physical.

If non-physical is illusory, as you claim, then physicality is also illusory, as one is defined by the other.
 
Last edited:

godnotgod

Thou art That

He didn't say purpose and meaning for one's existence. He said:
"To ponder interminably over the reason for one's own existence or the meaning of life in general seems to me, from an objective point of view, to be sheer folly."
There are two seperate things here. One is pondering over the reason for one's own existence, and the other is thinking that there is any meaning to 'life in general".

Notice the "in general" part. Not "reason for one's own existence and the meaning of one's particular life", but reason for one's own existence or the meaning of life in general. Does the mystical view you describe see life as meaningless?

Yes, purposeless and meaningless, not pointing to anything other than itself. The insight itself is neither religious nor non-religious.

As fascinated as I am at your ability to read into an article you haven't actually read written by an individual whose work you are familiar with it seems almost entirely through quotations picked up from various websites (the last one wasn't even Einstein's), do you ever wonder whether there is a point at which trying to "see" behind the surface meaning is just making stuff up?

No.

First, that "insight" you highlighted? " This insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion" Do you think that Einstein meant this to be a good thing?

It is the same insight that is the source for art and science [as Einstien himself tells us] as it is for religion as it is for the mystic. The difference is that the scientist analyzes what he sees, the theist sees it as pointing to a higher being, while the mystic sees it for what it is, the Absolute itself. The insight itself is neither good nor bad.

"The universe is the Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivikenanda

Second, science is about discovery. That's the point. What is a mystery now can be discovered through scientific methods (which Einstein used). Where do you get "intuitive" from? Using science to understand mysteries? If that describes an intuitive mind, then every scientist is using intuition. However, as that is not at all what Einstein said, we need not reach that conclusion.

It's not that it's a mystery, it's how the mystery is regarded that Einstein is pointing out. Without such regard, he then says, one is dead. IOW, the intuitive experience comes first, THEN the science. You've got things backwards, as many people do who think to find 'understanding' via analysis, logic, and reason:

"You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life..."
Yeshu

If there were no mysteries, there would be no science. Because you cannot discover anything if everything is known. Do you know a word for something that isn't known? One such word is "mystery".

Again, it is not whether mystery exists or not, but how we regard the mystery and the approach we take on its behalf. Some do nothing; others analyze it; some create the concept of God to 'explain' it, while still others attempt to achieve union with the source of the mystery. Knowledge and Belief are the results for some, while Awakening to the true nature of Reality is for others. This awakening to the true nature of Reality is called 'Enlightenment'.:)

re: contemplate

You didn't provide a link.

3) The most common use of the term, even today, is "thinking hard" or "musing" not "meditation".


Definition of CONTEMPLATE
1: to view or consider with continued attention : meditate on <contemplate the vastness of the universe>
2: to view as contingent or probable or as an end or intention <contemplate marriage>
intransitive verb
3: ponder, meditate

Examples of CONTEMPLATE

He contemplated the meaning of the poem for a long time.
I'd like some time to just sit and contemplate.
She stood and quietly contemplated the scene that lay before her.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/contemplate

'Open-Minded' is a Christian Contemplative. They are mystics, whose path is intuitive and meditative. You can verify that with him/her.

I would only add that, apart from strict meditation, contemplation can include some rational thought along with passive reflection. "pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe" is to suspend thought momentarily, as one is struck by what one is witness to. That is an intuitive experience. It SEES rather than THINKS; THEN you think about what you first see.
 
Last edited:

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Sigh ... yes I watched it. I agree with TED, he's rambling and he lectures about quantum physics about as well as a chimp piloting a jumbo jet.
Indeed, Mr Spinkles, even from my armchair physics position, Chopra sounds as if he doesn't really know much about what he is saying. I believe what I can learn from this is to not bastardize scientific ideas and theories to my own ends. It's so tempting to rip-off these brilliant ideas to give ones own think an aura of authenticity. Add in some mystical sounding mumbo jumbo and it is pretty clear why "Sixpack" Chopra sells so very well. In all fairness, Chopra and others of his ilk are banking (quite literally) on people's ignorance.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Sigh ... yes I watched it. I agree with TED, he's rambling and he lectures about quantum physics about as well as a chimp piloting a jumbo jet.

Apparently TED changed its collective mind, as they did end up publishing it on their site, so what does that tell you?

Looks like the chimp landed successfully! He must be using his consciousness.
:D

But besides all that, is there anything he said about QM that is inaccurate? Is there any truth to what he says, or is it all just mumbo-jumbo to you?
 
Last edited:

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Apparently TED changed its collective mind, as they did end up publishing it on their site.

Looks like the chimp landed successfully! He must be using his consciousness.
:D
In all fairness, godnotgod, such a lecture certainly fits with the TED narrative, albeit it is certainly a lowering of the bar.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Indeed, Mr Spinkles, even from my armchair physics position, Chopra sounds as if he doesn't really know much about what he is saying. I believe what I can learn from this is to not bastardize scientific ideas and theories to my own ends. It's so tempting to rip-off these brilliant ideas to give ones own think an aura of authenticity. Add in some mystical sounding mumbo jumbo and it is pretty clear why "Sixpack" Chopra sells so very well. In all fairness, Chopra and others of his ilk are banking (quite literally) on people's ignorance.

He sells well because he speaks to that part in man's nature that requires/hungers for spiritual nourishment, something that sterile science and dogmatic Patriarchal religions fail to deliver. Why do you think all the current interest in such things as Zen, Yoga, Wicca, Buddhism, Rumi, yes even New Age? Is it a co-incidence that every single one of them is feminine-based, the Mother that is the one which provided nourishment? Just because Chopra and Goswami know how to successfully integrate the intellectual with the intuitive and earn recompense for it does not mean either theft nor exploitation.

Do we see a large number of book returns written by Chopra because after having read them, the terrible realization sets in that the buyers have been had? I suppose now you'll suggest that instead, they are spurred to buy even more Chopra dime store trash because now they've become hypnotized via subliminal messages within their pages. Sinister Evil knows no end.
 
Last edited:

godnotgod

Thou art That
In all fairness, godnotgod, such a lecture certainly fits with the TED narrative, albeit it is certainly a lowering of the bar.

...either that, or a raising of their own consicousness!

The only part I take issue with is Chopra's opening, where he calls Dawkins a fundamentalist and a bigot, something he later apologized for.
 
Last edited:

godnotgod

Thou art That
&#8220;The supreme task of the physicist is to arrive at those universal elementary laws from which the cosmos can be built up by pure deduction. There is no logical path to these laws; only intuition, resting on sympathetic understanding of experience, can reach them.&#8221;
Albert Einstein


&#8220;Is it possible to reveal the beauty of Nature without translating that beauty into the terms of human senses? Is it possible to convey what Nature looks like without constructing a picture? After I pondered these questions, I realized that in order for us to wrap our intuition around the natural realm we must find a way to relate that realm to our senses. Literally, if we want to know what Nature looks like then we have to construct a picture. As Steven Strogatz eloquently puts it, &#8220;without direct visualization we are dynamically blind.&#8221; (Strogatz, &#8220;The Next Fifty Years,&#8217; p.23.)
To explore this point suppose that I took a digital picture of what we dubbed &#8216;The Fountain of Buckskin Gulch,&#8217; and then presented the digital information of that picture, the raw sequence of ones and zeros, to someone. Would that untranslated information help them see the fountain? This is more than just a question of lexicon, semantics, or syntax &#8211; it is a matter of connection. In other words, if I tried to present a facet of Nature&#8217;s beauty to someone without translating that information into a display that can be directly experienced by at least one of the senses, then how could I ever expect the recipient of that information to fully comprehend that beauty?
Einstein addressed this issue more poetically when he said,

&#8220;Knowledge exists in two forms &#8212; lifeless, stored in books, and alive in the consciousness of men. The second form&#8230;is the essential one.&#8221;

We can only obtain this second form when we extend the reach of our intuition into the depths of Nature&#8217;s secrets. But in order to do this we need a conceptual portal that is capable of unveiling a richer map.
This realization highlights a fundamental problem in the approach taken by modern physics. For the past several decades, theorists and mathematicians have been working on constructing a framework of Nature that is capable of mathematically combining the descriptions of general relativity and quantum mechanics under the same rubric. But their efforts have been focused on organizing Nature&#8217;s data into a self-consistent assembly &#8212; like the ones and zeros of a digital picture. The problem is that this inductive approach does not encourage, let alone require, the discovery of a conceptual portal. Even if physicists were one day to conclude that their assembly was mathematically correct, it would not actually increase our ability to truly comprehend Nature unless it was translated into some sort of picture. Therefore, since it is really the picture that we are after, maybe it is time for us to consider whether or not our efforts will bare more fruit under a different approach. Specifically, to maximize our chances of completing our goal of intuitively grasping Nature&#8217;s complete form, maybe we should follow the lead of young Einstein and return to a deductive conceptual approach. Perhaps it is time for us to place our focus on constructing a richer map of physical reality. If we don&#8217;t, then all of Nature&#8217;s elaborate arrangements may very well remain forever hidden in obscure mathematics and impenetrable sequences of data.&#8221;

http://einsteinsintuition.com/book-excerpts/preface/
 
Last edited:

idav

Being
Premium Member
But you cannot exist without first having not existed.

A source of everything would always have existed. A source would not need to do or think its way into existence.
Now, consider the notion that existence/non-existence are cyclical phases like everything else in the universe, since they go together, and that behind the phases is consciousness. Consciousness is pure being, whether there is existence or not.
Being doesn't require being conscious. If a rock exists it doesn't need to know it.
The non-physical cannot be illusory because it has no appearance itself. It is matter that is illusory, as the manifestation of the non-physical.
If non-physical is illusory, as you claim, then physicality is also illusory, as one is defined by the other.
Consciousness is illusory just like our interpretation of the world is a mirage. It doesn't mean nothing exists. It does suggest that things aren't what they seem but we already know that and keep proving it. Being and existence would do just fine without ever having to know it. If anything awareness just complicates things.
 
Indeed, Mr Spinkles, even from my armchair physics position, Chopra sounds as if he doesn't really know much about what he is saying. I believe what I can learn from this is to not bastardize scientific ideas and theories to my own ends. It's so tempting to rip-off these brilliant ideas to give ones own think an aura of authenticity. Add in some mystical sounding mumbo jumbo and it is pretty clear why "Sixpack" Chopra sells so very well. In all fairness, Chopra and others of his ilk are banking (quite literally) on people's ignorance.
Exactly. For the record, my standards are pretty low. Chopra can say whatever he wants about quantum mechanics, but at the minimum, I would like him to emphasize upfront that he is not an expert and most experts disagree with him. That way his audience will be better equipped to judge for themselves instead of being bedazzled by vague quantum-mystic-talk.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Exactly. For the record, my standards are pretty low. Chopra can say whatever he wants about quantum mechanics, but at the minimum, I would like him to emphasize upfront that he is not an expert and most experts disagree with him. That way his audience will be better equipped to judge for themselves instead of being bedazzled by vague quantum-mystic-talk.

To be fair, I doubt his intended, and actual, audience has any more sincere interest in understanding quantum mechanics, or science in general, than he does. I'm fairly certain that most people with an honest scientific curiosity, and enough cognitive ability, are able to see through bullcrap artists like Chopra on the spot.
 
Apparently TED changed its collective mind, as they did end up publishing it on their site, so what does that tell you?
This is what TED tells me: "As part of a public exchange of letters (his, ours, his) regarding TED&#8217;s views on the line between good and bad science, Deepak Chopra has asked us to post a talk he gave at TED in 2002 (four years before TED began free online distribution of some of its talks). Here it is: ... We never posted Chopra&#8217;s talk before because, frankly, it seemed unfocused, and it used the language of quantum physics in a way we thought was misleading. We admired Deepak&#8217;s desire for a more spiritual, connected world. But in our curatorial opinion, this particular talk wasn&#8217;t right for the homepage of TED.com." From the link you posted.

Translation: Chopra's talk bad. But Chopra complain a lot. TED post bad talk, make Chopra be quiet.

godnotgod said:
But besides all that, is there anything he said about QM that is inaccurate? Is there any truth to what he says, or is it all just mumbo-jumbo to you?
This is sort of like asking if there are any parts that can be salvaged from a plane crash. He veered off the runway right at takeoff, when he said the first principle of quantum mechanics is that there is no energy .... etc. Sure, maybe we can salvage a few things but it would spare so much confusion and frustration to just start over with a fresh aircraft. That's why I wrote the OP, as a start on the subject for laypeople.
 
Last edited:

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, purposeless and meaningless, not pointing to anything other than itself. The insight itself is neither religious nor non-religious.
That's completely unrelated to what Einstein actually said. Think, for a moment, about context. Einstein was raised in the West, and although Jewish he was an atheist. Recall also that until recently, the reason people in the sciences received PhDs was because they were now "doctors of philosophy". Finally, recall that the philosophical tradition Einstein was familiar with and talked about was Western, and that during his life German intellectuals like Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, Marx, etc. had written or would write about how ultimately there was no purpose or meaning in anything. There was no God, no higher truth, nothing beyond the material world. Einstein was a German intellectual. Like all of the above, he believed that there was no ultimate meaning or absolute/higher truth- that everything is material and there is nothing spiritual that isn't a product of mere human fantasy/wishful thinking.

And, like all of them, he found a way to experience something like religious, spiritual, and/or mystical experiences. For Einstein, that was spirituality: a sense of wonder at the material things in life. Which is why he is quite clear about the one and only way he can be counted as religious.

You've got things backwards

I looked at the whole picture instead of focusing on the details. I not only looked at the essay holistically, but the context in which it was written. When you focus on little details, like what this or that word means in a single quote from one paper, you miss the big picture. Try looking at the quotes not in terms of little details like the nuances of this or that word, or this or that phrase, but try to see the big picture: the whole paper and its context.

“The supreme task of the physicist is to arrive at those universal elementary laws from which the cosmos can be built up by pure deduction. There is no logical path to these laws; only intuition, resting on sympathetic understanding of experience, can reach them.”
Albert Einstein

He doesn't end there. That's from a speech given for Max Planck, and he ends by saying to (and of) Planck: "May the love of science continue to illumine his path in the future and lead him to the solution of the most important problem in present-day physics, which he has himself posed and done so much to solve. May he succeed in uniting quantum theory with electrodynamics and mechanics in a single logical system."

At last! I have a quote that you use, ripped from context, that I can give you the context to: "Motives for Research".
That's where your quote is from, and here is the context (emphases added):
""What place does the theoretical physicist's picture of the world occupy among all these possible pictures? It demands the highest possible standard of rigorous precision in the description of relations, such as only the use of mathematical language can give. In regard to his subject matter, on the other hand, the physicist has to limit himself very severely: he must content himself with describing the most simple events which can be brought within the domain of our experience; all events of a more complex order are beyond the power of the human intellect to reconstruct with the subtle accuracy and logical perfection which the theoretical physicist demands"
Einstein (as you can read for yourself) follows this by noting that this precision comes with severe limitations, as so much of the universe is in some way beyond the reach of the physicist. Rhetorically, he asks whether (given the limitations physics has when it comes to understanding physical reality), whether the name "physics" is justified. And he answers:
In my belief the name is justified; for the general laws on which the structure of theoretical physics is based claim to be valid for any natural phenomenon whatsoever. With them, it ought to be possible to arrive at the description, that is to say, the theory, of every natural process, including life, by means of pure deduction, if that process of deduction were not far beyond the capacity of the human intellect. The physicist's renunciation of completeness for his cosmos is therefore not a matter of fundamental principle."

That last line is right before the part you quoted. In what you quoted, Einstein notes that while physics itself is severly limited by precision, and that it is logical deduction which is required to understand the laws of the cosmos, you don't need that precision to test whether or not some hypothesis about the structure of reality is correct.
"In this methodological uncertainty, one might suppose that there were any number of possible systems of theoretical physics all equally well justified; and this opinion is no doubt correct, theoretically. But the development of physics has shown that at any given moment, out of all conceivable constructions, a single one has always proved itself decidedly superior to all the rest."

So while intuition, guesses, wild hunches, even accidents can and have led to scientific discovery, the reason there are not "any number of possible systems" which are "equally well justified" is because that guess, accident, intuition is barely the start. It is just what allows the rigor and logic of physics to demonstrate whether or not some hypothesis about reality is justified. Further, what motivates the scientist to continually test and experiment in order to arrive at a sound, logical, coherent theory is a "state of mind...akin to that of a religious worshipper", as the effort is motivated by a love of, and a passion for, sicence.

Literally, if we want to know what Nature looks like then we have to construct a picture. As Steven Strogatz eloquently puts it, “without direct visualization we are dynamically blind.” (Strogatz, “The Next Fifty Years,’ p.23.)

Again, context. First, it isn't from "Strogatz, "The Next Fifty Years", because The Next Fifty Years is a volume edited by Brockman which includes a paper by Strogatz: "Fermi's Little Discovery" and the Future of Chaos and Complexity Theory".

Second, the quote is actually from Thad Roberts (former NASA intern who was sentenced to prison for stealing moon rocks from the Johnson Space Center Lab). He quotes Strogatz' “without direct visualization we are dynamically blind.”. Now, as I'm sure you read Strogatz' excellent intro text to nonlinear science, you'll know that he emphasizes the importance of graphical (i.e., geometrical) analysis of nonlinear systems. Which is why visualization is so important to understanding dynamical systems, because without such geometrical depictions we'd be "dynamically blind".

Einstein addressed this issue more poetically when he said,

“Knowledge exists in two forms — lifeless, stored in books, and alive in the consciousness of men. The second form…is the essential one.”

“Knowledge exists in two forms — lifeless, stored in books, and alive in the consciousness of men. The second form of existence is after all the essential one; the first, indispensible as it may be, occupies only an inferior position."

Why does Einstein contrast lifelessness versus being alive? Because he was honoring someone who had recently died (Morris Raphael Cohen) at an event in november of 1949 organized in memory and in honor of the Cohen (specifically, the Morris Raphael Cohen Student Memorial Fund".

You do realize that most of what you quoted was not by Einstein or Strogatz but by an ex NASA intern who is most known for his groundbreaking accomplishments in...stealing from his employers and getting caught trying to sell what he stole.
 
Last edited:

godnotgod

Thou art That
Sigh ... yes I watched it. I agree with TED, he's rambling and he lectures about quantum physics about as well as a chimp piloting a jumbo jet.

That is shameful for a supposed scientist to say. It shows your ignorance and lack of understanding and appreciation for the real intelligence chimpanzees possess. Do you do this because you find Chopra's intellect far superior to yours (it is) and therefore threatening? I hope that, as a scientist, you understand this as none other than the egoic psychological mechanism known as the projection of your Shadow onto a scapegoat as a means of casting your Persona in the best light possible. Unfortunately, the effect is exactly the opposite.

So. What have you learned from Grampa Chopra today, the mysterious man from the East who, along with Goswami, have made child's play of the West's Sacred Rubric Cube Cow: QM...and using the West's own language, to boot! Ooooh! Science not liking that! You know. You can just add more mumbo jumbo to it to make it completely inaccessible, thereby retaining ownership. Maybe you can freeze-dry it or put it in formaldehyde-filled containers to preserve it for science and posterity. 'Look! We've finally captured the elusive QM for all to see!"
 
Last edited:

godnotgod

Thou art That
Originally Posted by LegionOnomaMoi
He didn't say purpose and meaning for one's existence. He said:
"To ponder interminably over the reason for one's own existence or the meaning of life in general seems to me, from an objective point of view, to be sheer folly."
There are two seperate things here. One is pondering over the reason for one's own existence, and the other is thinking that there is any meaning to 'life in general".

Notice the "in general" part. Not "reason for one's own existence and the meaning of one's particular life", but reason for one's own existence or the meaning of life in general. Does the mystical view you describe see life as meaningless?

Originally Posted by godnotgod
Yes, purposeless and meaningless, not pointing to anything other than itself. The insight itself is neither religious nor non-religious.

That's completely unrelated to what Einstein actually said.

I don't care if it wasn't, which it was, but my response was not to Einstein, but to your last question about 'the mystical view you describe'. To put my answer to your question another way, there is no purpose or meaning to dancing other than the dance itself.

And, like all of them, he found a way to experience something like religious, spiritual, and/or mystical experiences. For Einstein, that was spirituality: a sense of wonder at the material things in life. Which is why he is quite clear about the one and only way he can be counted as religious.

Spirituality is not about 'a sense of wonder at the material things in life.'

... When you focus on little details, like what this or that word means in a single quote from one paper, you miss the big picture. Try looking at the quotes not in terms of little details like the nuances of this or that word, or this or that phrase, but try to see the big picture: the whole paper and its context.

Ha! :slap: You're telling me?

I am sticking to my original comments as valid signposts to the 'big picture'.
 
Last edited:

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't care if it wasn't, which it was, but my response was not to Einstein, but to your last question about 'the mystical view you describe'. To put my answer to your question another way, there is no purpose or meaning to dancing other than the dance itself.

That means there is purpose and meaning. The dance itself (whatever that means) has it. You also quite thoroughly distanced yourself from Einstein's understanding of "mystery" and his personal "spiritual" views through this statement:

Spirituality is not about 'a sense of wonder at the material things in life.'


It may not be for most, but was for Einstein. And, actually, often he makes a distinction between actual spirituality and what he's referring to when he talks about awe, wonder, and so forth. In the actual full paper from which you last quoted, Einstein says of Planck's dedication to finding answers to the mysteries of the cosmos that the "state of mind which enables a man to do work of this kind is akin to that of a religious worshipper or lover". Spirituality for Einstein was awe of a very complex, but very material, cosmos."



Ha! :slap: You're telling me?


Yes. Because despite your insistence on seeing the "big picture", apparently that's only when the details get in the way. When the big picture does, all the sudden you ignore it.


I am sticking to my original comments as valid signposts to the 'big picture'.
So you think the best way to understand what Einstein thought is by not realizing that you've extensively quoted an ex-convict, using a quote of Einstein which he never said, and using quotes from Einstein that lack any context. This is a better way to understand a person who has written extensively on everything from politics to cosmology in a period spanning decades: a few quotes and some misquotes. That's big picture?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That


That means there is purpose and meaning. The dance itself (whatever that means) has it.

Nope. When we talk about life having a meaning or purpose, we mean that it points to something beyond life. To say that life and the universe are meaningless and purposeless means that there is nothing they point to beyond themselves. Therefore, purpose and meaning are cancelled out, because the point of life is living itself. You don't dance for anything other than to dance. You don't live for anything other than to live. If you do, you are missing life. Both life and dance point back to themselves, not beyond themselves to some other goal. If you think life has some purpose, your mind is still grasping, and cannot see things as they are, but as your desires want them to be.

You also quite thoroughly distanced yourself from Einstein's understanding of "mystery" and his personal "spiritual" views through this statement:

'Spirituality is not about 'a sense of wonder at the material things in life.'

It is a half-truth, if you will. Einstein made it clear he believed in the God of Spinoza, leaning to pantheism and claimed agnosticism, while giving a nod to Buddhsm. He also made it clear he did not give credence to a personal, anthropomorphic deity.

It may not be for most, but was for Einstein. And, actually, often he makes a distinction between actual spirituality and what he's referring to when he talks about awe, wonder, and so forth. In the actual full paper from which you last quoted, Einstein says of Planck's dedication to finding answers to the mysteries of the cosmos that the "state of mind which enables a man to do work of this kind is akin to that of a religious worshipper or lover. Spirituality for Einstein was awe of a very complex, but very material, cosmos.

I think his spirituality went a bit beyond that. If it is true that he was a pantheist, then we are talking about an intelligent universe, and 'material' is more than it would imply to the ordinary mind:

"Albert Einstein's religious views have been studied extensively. He said he believed in the "pantheistic" God of Baruch Spinoza, but not in a personal god, a belief he criticized. He also called himself an agnostic, while disassociating himself from the label atheist..."
Religious views of Albert Einstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Pantheism is the belief that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God,[1] or that the universe (or nature) is identical with divinity. Pantheists thus do not believe in a personal or anthropomorphic god."
Pantheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



"I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things."
Albert Einstein

In other words, Einstein saw the 'material' world infused with spirit, with consciousness. When understood this way, the so-called 'material world' becomes transformed. No wonder Einstein was filled with awe. Again, awe is a state of mind in which thought is temporarily suspended in which one is captivated by what one sees, because it is beyond what the rational mind knows. This awe is an intuitive 'seeing', rather than a systematically thought out concept about what one sees. That is science, which would follow. No problem, as long as one knows the difference.

But back to the original point that Einstein referred to an intuitive view as the basis for science, his statement is clear:

"There is no logical path to these laws; only intuition, resting on sympathetic understanding of experience, can reach them.&#8221;
Albert Einstein
 
Last edited:

idav

Being
Premium Member
"I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things."
Albert Einstein

In other words, Einstein saw the 'material' world infused with spirit, with consciousness. When understood this way, the so-called 'material world' becomes transformed. No wonder Einstein was filled with awe. Again, awe is a state of mind in which thought is temporarily suspended in which one is captivated by what one sees, because it is beyond what the rational mind knows. This awe is an intuitive 'seeing', rather than a systematically thought out concept about what one sees. That is science, which would follow. No problem, as long as one knows the difference.

But back to the original point that Einstein referred to an intuitive view as the basis for science, his statement is clear:

"There is no logical path to these laws; only intuition, resting on sympathetic understanding of experience, can reach them.”
Albert Einstein

To me it sounds like Einstein is speaking against dualism and emphasizing the logic of monism. Einstein is not bringing yet another substance to call consciousness. Even with that we can't say Einstein was pantheist but who could blame him if he was :).
 
Top