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Demystifying Quantum Physics

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The only thing you have given me this entire discussion is blatant insults

I pointed out there are things you do not know. This is true of all humans. How exactly does pointing out where you are misinformed, inaccurate, etc., constitute "blatant insults"?

and complete disrespect towards everything I say
No. Just that which I know to be wrong.

and yet you wonder why I choose to dismiss your "great and vast knowledge of everything"?
I don't wonder. I assume that it's because you have some passing familiarity with terms you hardly grasp that you weave together in ways that you appreciate regardless of how utterly distinct your notions are to anything you refer to.

I could care less.
That is actually saddening. Maybe it's just me, but I think it is important to care about whether one is just regurgitating terms without understanding what they mean to construct some romantic world view. It's what disturbed me about Puddleglum's defense.

Maybe try treating people with some respect and they wouldn't think you're just another great big know-it-all phallus

"use every man after his desert, and who should 'scape whipping?"
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Well, c'mon now! Show me, via argumentation or example, exactly how consciousness is material. I've provided all of the characteristics of consciousness to show it's non-physical nature. There is nothing you can contain, via formula, physicality, or otherwise, something concrete, scientifically testable and predictable, called 'consciousness', that I know of. Nor can you pin it down to space-time. Until you can show how this is done, you have no argument that consciousness comes from the brain. It is just your assumption, and a poor (and juvenile) one at that.

The real problem here is that you simply don't know how to use your own faculties of Reason, Logic, and Analysis that you tout so highly. You just can't seem to fathom the simple notion that one value necessarily implies its opposite. Bottom line, monk, is that once you form a concept of what 'material' is, you have automatically formed a concept of the non-material. Your logic that only one should exist is a twisted and forced kind of logic to suit your own penchant, and that, my dear monk friend, is unscientific, to say the least. You are, in effect, no better than the religious fundie who argues his point in such a way as to make the tail wag the dog, because that is precisely what you are (unwittingly) doing. I suggest you learn to use the brain you claim is the source of consciousness to figure these logistics out.
Wow.

I have provided adequately why the consciousness is material. However you throw your argument back into "well that's not consciousness that's mind" but then never show me that consciousness exists apart from the mind.

Because I don't agree with your ******** i'm a fundie? Nice rebuttal.

Look at what you are saying here:

"I know that what I am observing is relative because that's what I have observed"

That's circular logic. Where have you heard this before?

"The Bible is the word of God because the Bible tells me so."

But I won't leave you hanging.

Clue:

Think:


What is the CONTEXT of your observation of the relative?


'This hawk of truth is swift and flies with a still cry, a small sweetmeat for the eyes of night'
You sir are grasping at straws. Support your argument or you have nothing. Everything you rely on is based on something you haven't supported and is not accepted as fact.

Things are relative free from our observation. However we only know they are relative once we observe them. We know nothing apart from observation and logic. There are free from observation calculations such as math but it is hardly the same thing you have been talking about.

You have shown over and over again that you don't have the grasp on even the most basic of concepts because you can't get past this pre-conceived notion that your correct. What you believe MUST be correct. Consciousness is "x" even if there is no evidence supporting it. However no matter how much evidence I provide to say that consciousness is "y" you simply move the goalposts and say "consciousness isn't y. Y is mind. They are not the same. Consciousness is X".

So from this point either support your premise or move on. If you wish to hold onto your beliefs and look for like minded individuals do so in a place other than debate.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I have provided adequately why the consciousness is material.

What? Where? Last I looked, 'material' is something that can be accessed via sensory awareness. Bring forth this so-called 'material' consciousness that we can have a look at it. Provide it's size, shape, and weight, please.


However you throw your argument back into "well that's not consciousness that's mind" but then never show me that consciousness exists apart from the mind.

I did. I told you that mind is what is used for thinking, and consciousness for seeing. Consciousness does not discriminate, and so is non-dual. It sees neither material nor non-material. Mind discriminates between material and non-material. The discriminating mind forms concepts about reality, while consciousness just sees it as it actually is. Consciousness is our immediate experience of being, now; mind is a self-created principle, and therefore is illusory. Descartes was simply wrong, because he did not understand the illusion of self.

Because I don't agree with your ******** i'm a fundie?

No. Your logic is the same as that of a fundie, which is circular reasoning.


Things are relative free from our observation. However we only know they are relative once we observe them. We know nothing apart from observation and logic. There are free from observation calculations such as math but it is hardly the same thing you have been talking about.

So then 'no-thing' is the background against which we know things to be relative, correct? That is to say, [knowing] nothing is the default state of consciousness, because we know nothing prior to knowing something. However, we only see reality as composed of seemingly separate 'things' when we think about it. In reality, the universe is not actually composed of separate 'things', and this is apparent to consciousness which just sees, without discriminating thought.

You have shown over and over again that you don't have the grasp on even the most basic of concepts because you can't get past this pre-conceived notion that your correct. What you believe MUST be correct. Consciousness is "x" even if there is no evidence supporting it. However no matter how much evidence I provide to say that consciousness is "y" you simply move the goalposts and say "consciousness isn't y. Y is mind. They are not the same. Consciousness is X".

I'll try again:

If consciousness is material, as you claim it to be, then what is the nature of it's composition?
 
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Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
I pointed out there are things you do not know. This is true of all humans. How exactly does pointing out where you are misinformed, inaccurate, etc., constitute "blatant insults"?


No. Just that which I know to be wrong.


I don't wonder. I assume that it's because you have some passing familiarity with terms you hardly grasp that you weave together in ways that you appreciate regardless of how utterly distinct your notions are to anything you refer to.


That is actually saddening. Maybe it's just me, but I think it is important to care about whether one is just regurgitating terms without understanding what they mean to construct some romantic world view. It's what disturbed me about Puddleglum's defense.



"use every man after his desert, and who should 'scape whipping?"

Of course there are flaws in my use of words and perhaps in my understanding of physics as well, but that is irrellevant to the validity of my belief. That is simply an issue with the way I portray it, not that there is anything inherently wrong with the belief in itself. You thus far haven't pointed out anything specifically wrong with my belief, only in how I presented it. That animating force which I try to describe in my beliefs is beyond anything that could be put into presently existing words. All physicists (or so it would seem)...especially those who work in the quantum field, know for a fact that there is something still missing from their equations. It can be likened to "the missing link" of physics. They don't want to call it energy because they can not as of yet measure it. They (being most quantum physicists) don't want to call it "consciousness" either for fear of ridicule or sounding unscientific...but there is indeed something there, some type of animating force (non-supernatural IMO) that powers/drives everything that exists, even energy itself.

Even Max Planck alluded to such a thing with these famous quotes....

"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter"

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."

"Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve."



You can try to refute my beliefs all you want, but you would not be simply going against me, you would be going against the personally held views of a lot of truly great physicists in the field of quantum mechanics.

So you see I DO care how my beliefs are percieved or accepted, I just don't care what YOU think because what YOU think has no basis on whether or not my belief has any merit. What YOU think is irrelevant because you are not at the same level of undertanding of quantum mechanics as Max Planck, or Nick Herbert, or Amit Goswami to name a few...

---
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
.... you would be going against the personally held views of a lot of truly great physicists in the field of quantum mechanics.

.... you are not at the same level of undertanding of quantum mechanics as Max Planck, or Nick Herbert, or Amit Goswami to name a few...

---

It seems to be the case that some of these physicists who have worked in the field of QM for awhile, are intuitively led to a non-materialist view, a view by which the materialist view can then be understood more clearly. IOW, it is the larger context within which the materialist view is contained. The materialist view by itself cannot actually tell us what the universe is, even though it can provide facts and data about it. The true nature of reality is not just about facts and data, though some would have you and I believe that poppycock. It's like when they probe the brain and get responses and think they're being clever when they say: "Aha! You see? Unmistakable and clear evidence that consciousness is created by der brain!" It's a mechanistic and reductionist approach cloaked in the 'authority' of Holy Science they are indoctrinated into thinking will yield what the nature of things is. It won't. The universe is not a mechanical apparatus that can be dismantled to analyze it component 'parts' as a means of ascertaining the nature of the whole. The method of science is dissection via Reason, Logic, and Analysis, and as long as that is the case, we will be led on and on by the nose ad infinitum without ever achieving a true understanding about the nature of reality, which needs to come first before the facts and data can be correctly explained. They've got it half-ahhsss backwards. A few are intelligent enough, as you pointed out, to see this. The rest are still locked into the old materialist paradigm. It's a matter of a transformation of consciousness, and that has always been the case.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
godnotgod said:

Sure, you can conveniently invent an idea in which there exists only the material, but that is just mental poppycock.

You mean sort of like reality? There is no reason to assume something beyond the physical exist. I'm not saying it [reality] doesn't exist for sure but I am saying there is no reason to assume it exists. And furthermore nothing in science supports it...

This is hilarious!

First you try to say that only the physical exists, and then turn around and say that the existence of reality is questionable. Well, Duh! For you, the physical IS reality, the way you describe it.

But the fact of the matter is that, what you call the 'physical' turns out to be not so 'physical' or 'material' after all, and that according to science itself, especially via Quantum Mechanics.

But we mystics already knew that. Science is only beginning to scratch the surface and what it has found so far has made it puff up its head several times its size, even to the point of claiming ownership of QM.


"Oh, we experts know all about QM and you have not studied and don't know what you're talking about and blah, blah, blah....ad nauseum".

Sort of like the Christian fundie arriving in heaven with his Bible and preaching to God about what it all means. :facepalm:

(What is the sound of one shoe dropping? Shhhh! Listen!)
 
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Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
What? Where? Last I looked, 'material' is something that can be accessed via sensory awareness. Bring forth this so-called 'material' consciousness that we can have a look at it. Provide it's size, shape, and weight, please.

Are you confusing material with matter?



I did. I told you that mind is what is used for thinking, and consciousness for seeing. Consciousness does not discriminate, and so is non-dual. It sees neither material nor non-material. Mind discriminates between material and non-material. The discriminating mind forms concepts about reality, while consciousness just sees it as it actually is. Consciousness is our immediate experience of being, now; mind is a self-created principle, and therefore is illusory. Descartes was simply wrong, because he did not understand the illusion of self.
What is the reasoning behind your assertion that consciousness does not discriminate and is somehow non-dual?


No. Your logic is the same as that of a fundie, which is circular reasoning.
No. Its based in evidence, science and reasoning. Your left field baseless assertions are being called out and if I don't accept them then you jump to ad hominen



So then 'no-thing' is the background against which we know things to be relative, correct? That is to say, [knowing] nothing is the default state of consciousness, because we know nothing prior to knowing something. However, we only see reality as composed of seemingly separate 'things' when we think about it. In reality, the universe is not actually composed of separate 'things', and this is apparent to consciousness which just sees, without discriminating thought.
Wrong. We have not observed "no-thing". You don't have to have an absolute to have relative. You have to have discrepancy to have relative. The rest has nothing to do with what we were talking about.


I'll try again:

If consciousness is material, as you claim it to be, then what is the nature of it's composition?
[/quote]
Consciousness is a property of our brain. The complexity is not something we fully understand even today. I don't have to "know" exactly how it works and neither does science, to assume that it is still a property of the physical world without having to jump to any unsupported conclusions about alternative states of reality.


This is hilarious!

First you try to say that only the physical exists, and then turn around and say that the existence of reality is questionable. Well, Duh! For you, the physical IS reality, the way you describe it.

But the fact of the matter is that, what you call the 'physical' turns out to be not so 'physical' or 'material' after all, and that according to science itself, especially via Quantum Mechanics.

But we mystics already knew that. Science is only beginning to scratch the surface and what it has found so far has made it puff up its head several times its size, even to the point of claiming ownership of QM.


"Oh, we experts know all about QM and you have not studied and don't know what you're talking about and blah, blah, blah....ad nauseum".

Sort of like the Christian fundie arriving in heaven with his Bible and preaching to God about what it all means. :facepalm:

(What is the sound of one shoe dropping? Shhhh! Listen!)

This was hilarious. Now it is getting tedious and irritating.

I don't claim that it is impossible for what your talking about to exist I'm simply saying there is zero reason to believe it. Its akin to god or any religious message. I have no reason to believe it and you have no proof or evidence to back anything you say up.

Mystics knew nothing about the science that is being discovered today. That is a blatant lie to assume so. The physical world is all we know of. There is no reason to assume knowledge of anything else. QM is a very advanced form of science and you don't seem to know the first thing about it. So how can you claim that mystics know all this prior without even knowing what QM is claiming?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
What is the reasoning behind your assertion that consciousness does not discriminate and is somehow non-dual?

There's no reasoning behind it at all. Conscious awareness of reality does not reason about it; it sees it as it is, and as it is, is singular, non-dual. It sees that the relative opposites are actually one.

It is the thinking mind that discriminates and sees the relative opposites as distinct things; as dual.

That is why I distinguish between mind and consciousness.
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
This is how I see it...

The simple fact that anything at all exists, is evidence enough to believe that something else must have been there initially to cause it to come into existence in the first place.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
godnotgod Quote:
No. Your logic is the same as that of a fundie, which is circular reasoning.

No. Its based in evidence, science and reasoning. Your left field baseless assertions are being called out and if I don't accept them then you jump to ad hominen

I did not attack you personally; I said your LOGIC is the same as that of a fundie, which is 'x is x because x is x'
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Wrong. We have not observed "no-thing". You don't have to have an absolute to have relative. You have to have discrepancy to have relative.


A discrepancy implies a relationship; discrepancy is also a relative term.

The opposite value of 'relative' is 'absolute', which means a condition to which nothing can be compared; to which nothing is relative:



rel·a·tive noun \ˈre-lə-tiv\


something that belongs to the same group as something else because of shared characteristics, qualities, etc.

Full Definition of RELATIVE

a thing having a relation to or connection with or necessary dependence on another thing

Antonyms

absolute, complete, downright, out-and-out, outright, perfect, pure, unqualified

Relative - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
 
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Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I did not attack you personally; I said your LOGIC is the same as that of a fundie, which is 'x is x because x is x'

Were that my argument you would have a point. However that is not my argument.

The sucession of this discussion has been.
You: Claim 1
Me: Support claim 1!

I haven't claimed anything beyond the fact that nothing you have brought is definitive in any way and I don't have to accept your premise which assumes things we have no knowledge of.
A discrepancy implies a relationship; discrepancy is also a relative term.

The opposite value of 'relative' is 'absolute', which means a condition to which nothing can be compared; to which nothing is relative:



rel·a·tive noun \ˈre-lə-tiv\


something that belongs to the same group as something else because of shared characteristics, qualities, etc.

Full Definition of RELATIVE

a thing having a relation to or connection with or necessary dependence on another thing

Antonyms

absolute, complete, downright, out-and-out, outright, perfect, pure, unqualified

Relative - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
If things are relative then that means there is no absolute between them. Notice its an antonym or opposite. There need be no absolute to have discrepancies.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Of course there are flaws in my use of words and perhaps in my understanding of physics as well, but that is irrellevant to the validity of my belief.

If physics isn't relevant to your beliefs, in that it doesn't matter if your beliefs conflict with physics, then of course it is true that your understanding of physics cannot be relevant to the validity of your belief.

That is simply an issue with the way I portray it

As far as linguistic constructions are concerned, then it is merely a matter of (as you say) your portrayal (or your expression) and is irrelevant to the validity of your belief. If your belief holds certain things to be true of physics that are not in fact true, then this is relevant.


You thus far haven't pointed out anything specifically wrong with my belief

It is my opinion and my belief that consciousness is that very same animating force that causes energy forms to have chemical reactions to begin with

To the extent this your belief, and that you believe that things can be "composed of energy" or that quantum fluctuations are akin to animation (i.e., the dynamics/mechanics/activities of animate entities), then you have stated things that are factually incorrect. Energy is a property of systems:

The equation isn't really E= mc^2. It's
gif.latex
. The subscript (the naught in E-naught) is because this is only true even in theory for a particle at rest (it's rest energy). For photons and other massless particles, it's E=pc or energy equals momentum times the speed of light. On the other hand, for kinetic energy the equation is
gif.latex
. In general, neither equation relating mass and energy holds true. The required equation for the total energy of a particle is E=
gif.latex
. That bottom part is usually expressed by the Greek letter gamma (just take out the mc^2 and keep the denominator as a denominator only written under the numerator 1). A simpler equation is E= mc^2 + pc.
The point is that the equation doesn't define energy as mass. It tells you that some physical system with x amount of energy travelling at y speed must have z mass, or that a physical system with z mass and x energy must be going at y speed, or that a physical system with z mass going at y speed must have x energy. These are all properties of physical systems in relativistic physics, but they do not define energy, mass, or speed. These are defined already as properties of physical systems (including those which aren't intuitively physical such as massless particles).

All physicists (or so it would seem)...especially those who work in the quantum field, know for a fact that there is something still missing from their equations.

Let's say someone stole my wallet. I report the crime and the police officer asks how much money, in bills, I had in my wallet. I tell her (truthfully) that I do not know.

The fact that I do not know how many bills were in my wallet does not prevent me from knowing that I didn't have 50 billion dollars in bills in my wallet.

The fact that there are things we do not understand in physics (or the sciences in general) does not therefore make anything possible. If you cannot precisely understand what it is we are not certain of (as well as why, what we can understand, what we can understand about what we are uncertain of, etc.), then you cannot infer from this anything that you can accurately say follows from this uncertainty.


They don't want to call it energy because they can not as of yet measure it.
Of course they can measure it. And they do call "energy" exactly that: energy.


They (being most quantum physicists) don't want to call it "consciousness" either for fear of ridicule or sounding unscientific
It's because the definitions of consciousness don't apply. If you think that the same scientists who posit infinitely many universes always being created in infinite numbers are afraid to call quantum systems conscious because it would sound unscientific, then you haven't sufficiently read up on the scientific literature in cosmology and theoretical physics.



but there is indeed something there, some type of animating force (non-supernatural IMO) that powers/drives everything that exists, even energy itself.

Apart from the assertion that "as things happen/move/are not static", what does "animating force" mean?
Even Max Planck alluded to such a thing with these famous quotes....

"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter"

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."

"Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve."



You can try to refute my beliefs all you want, but you would not be simply going against me, you would be going against the personally held views of a lot of truly great physicists in the field of quantum mechanics.

So you see I DO care how my beliefs are percieved or accepted, I just don't care what YOU think because what YOU think has no basis on whether or not my belief has any merit. What YOU think is irrelevant because you are not at the same level of undertanding of quantum mechanics as Max Planck, or Nick Herbert, or Amit Goswami to name a few...

---[/QUOTE]
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
If physics isn't relevant to your beliefs, in that it doesn't matter if your beliefs conflict with physics, then of course it is true that your understanding of physics cannot be relevant to the validity of your belief.



As far as linguistic constructions are concerned, then it is merely a matter of (as you say) your portrayal (or your expression) and is irrelevant to the validity of your belief. If your belief holds certain things to be true of physics that are not in fact true, then this is relevant.






To the extent this your belief, and that you believe that things can be "composed of energy" or that quantum fluctuations are akin to animation (i.e., the dynamics/mechanics/activities of animate entities), then you have stated things that are factually incorrect. Energy is a property of systems:





Let's say someone stole my wallet. I report the crime and the police officer asks how much money, in bills, I had in my wallet. I tell her (truthfully) that I do not know.

The fact that I do not know how many bills were in my wallet does not prevent me from knowing that I didn't have 50 billion dollars in bills in my wallet.

The fact that there are things we do not understand in physics (or the sciences in general) does not therefore make anything possible. If you cannot precisely understand what it is we are not certain of (as well as why, what we can understand, what we can understand about what we are uncertain of, etc.), then you cannot infer from this anything that you can accurately say follows from this uncertainty.



Of course they can measure it. And they do call "energy" exactly that: energy.



It's because the definitions of consciousness don't apply. If you think that the same scientists who posit infinitely many universes always being created in infinite numbers are afraid to call quantum systems conscious because it would sound unscientific, then you haven't sufficiently read up on the scientific literature in cosmology and theoretical physics.





Apart from the assertion that "as things happen/move/are not static", what does "animating force" mean?
Even Max Planck alluded to such a thing with these famous quotes....

"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter"

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."

"Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve."



You can try to refute my beliefs all you want, but you would not be simply going against me, you would be going against the personally held views of a lot of truly great physicists in the field of quantum mechanics.

So you see I DO care how my beliefs are percieved or accepted, I just don't care what YOU think because what YOU think has no basis on whether or not my belief has any merit. What YOU think is irrelevant because you are not at the same level of undertanding of quantum mechanics as Max Planck, or Nick Herbert, or Amit Goswami to name a few...

---



"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter"


I think Max Planck has already answered your questions quite clearly. My "animating force" is no different than his "conscious mind". I simply prefer not to call it consciousness.

---
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
Were that my argument you would have a point. However that is not my argument.

The sucession of this discussion has been.
You: Claim 1
Me: Support claim 1!

I haven't claimed anything beyond the fact that nothing you have brought is definitive in any way and I don't have to accept your premise which assumes things we have no knowledge of.

That your logic is circular has nothing to do with anything I've claimed. It has to do with something YOU'VE claimed.

If things are relative then that means there is no absolute between them. Notice its an antonym or opposite. There need be no absolute to have discrepancies.

The absolute is what you are seeing the relative against. If there were no absolute, you could not determine something to be relative to something else. IOW, the background against which you determine relativity is the absolute. The background has nothing else to compare it to. Therefore it is absolute. What allows your detection of the relative is the fact that the background is changeless.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter"

"Da es im ganzen Weltall aber weder eine intelligente Kraft noch eine ewige Kraft gibt...so müssen wir hinter dieser Kraft einen bewußten intelligenten Geist annehmen. Dieser Geist ist der Urgrund aller Materie...Da aber auch Geistwesen nicht aus sich selber sein können, sondern geschaffen werden müssen, so scheue ich mich nicht, diesen geheimnisvollen Schöpfer ebenso zu benennen, wie ihn alle Kulturvölker der Erde früherer Jahrtausende genannt haben: Gott! "

So when Planck says it is God who is the force behind what appears to be "intelligence" but which he says cannot be a property of matter (made explicit partly in the poorly translated section you provided but certainly in the following lines), you determine that by a singular God who is the intelligence to imply animsism? Why?

I think Max Planck has already answered your questions quite clearly.
That you believe in God as the intelligence discerned by Plank in physics?

My "animating force" is no different than his "conscious mind".
So God. Because that is what he says in very clear, very obvious terms. Not in your quote, of course, because your quote cuts out the important parts and plays loose with translations, but "diesen geheimnisvollen Schöpfer" (this mysterious creator) is what Planck clearly refers to: God. Not animated particles.

I simply prefer not to call it consciousness.
To call what consciousness? That which "müssen wir hinter dieser Kraft einen bewußten intelligenten Geist annehmen"? Notice that intelligenten Geist is singular, not plural, and is given by Planck a name that is not animism but which he explicitly relates to what "alle Kulturvölker der Erde früherer Jahrtausende" have named "God".
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
"Da es im ganzen Weltall aber weder eine intelligente Kraft noch eine ewige Kraft gibt...so müssen wir hinter dieser Kraft einen bewußten intelligenten Geist annehmen. Dieser Geist ist der Urgrund aller Materie...Da aber auch Geistwesen nicht aus sich selber sein können, sondern geschaffen werden müssen, so scheue ich mich nicht, diesen geheimnisvollen Schöpfer ebenso zu benennen, wie ihn alle Kulturvölker der Erde früherer Jahrtausende genannt haben: Gott! "

So when Planck says it is God who is the force behind what appears to be "intelligence" but which he says cannot be a property of matter (made explicit partly in the poorly translated section you provided but certainly in the following lines), you determine that by a singular God who is the intelligence to imply animsism? Why?


That you believe in God as the intelligence discerned by Plank in physics?


So God. Because that is what he says in very clear, very obvious terms. Not in your quote, of course, because your quote cuts out the important parts and plays loose with translations, but "diesen geheimnisvollen Schöpfer" (this mysterious creator) is what Planck clearly refers to: God. Not animated particles.


To call what consciousness? That which "müssen wir hinter dieser Kraft einen bewußten intelligenten Geist annehmen"? Notice that intelligenten Geist is singular, not plural, and is given by Planck a name that is not animism but which he explicitly relates to what "alle Kulturvölker der Erde früherer Jahrtausende" have named "God".

You may be right. Perhaps my belief in animism or my "animating force" is more closely related to Nick Herbert's notion of Quantum Animism.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
This is how I see it...

The simple fact that anything at all exists, is evidence enough to believe that something else must have been there initially to cause it to come into existence in the first place.

But what caused that to exist? And what caused that something to cause the universe? It's an infinite recursion.
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
But what caused that to exist? And what caused that something to cause the universe? It's an infinite recursion.

You are exactly right. That means there must have always been something...something naturally existing, yet infinitely existing at the same time. I call it the "animating factor" or "force". It is like an infinite, universal condition of sorts. Out of that "animating force", when that condition was just right, what we know as energy and matter formed.

Sorry,that is the best I can describe it.


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Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
That your logic is circular has nothing to do with anything I've claimed. It has to do with something YOU'VE claimed.
Do tell what I have claimed.


The absolute is what you are seeing the relative against. If there were no absolute, you could not determine something to be relative to something else. IOW, the background against which you determine relativity is the absolute. The background has nothing else to compare it to. Therefore it is absolute. What allows your detection of the relative is the fact that the background is changeless.

False. How can you tell the difference between red and blue? What is the absolute that I require for the discrepancy? Or what if I had a box 10 yards away and another box 100 yards away. What is the absolute needed to know that there is a 90 yard discrepancy between the position of the two boxes and that is where they are in relation to each other.

The theory of relativity talks about how we need to throw out absolutes of the nature your discussing. Everything is relative. Nothing is an exception to this except for possibly light but thats not because of some underlying mystical reason but because of the properties that light has.
 
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