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Demystifying Quantum Physics

godnotgod

Thou art That
[/COLOR]
Here's where you suggested people "poke around" a website about Einstein written by an ex-convict who, as an intern, stole from NASA.

Do you have some sort of neurotic fetish or fixation about his being an ex-convict who stole from NASA?, and how does that negate what he is saying? You seem to want to bring this up at every opportunity. I really don't give a hoot if it's true or not. It's irrelevant.

Or it's because you continue to make claims about both physics and Einstein based on a few lines you read off of websites, refuse to acknowledge anybody using any method to show you that you are wrong, and in the end the only reason there are no "sides" is because you don't seem to care about accuracy, honesty, truth, integrity, or anything other than promoting your view and if it happens to be based on deceptive quotes, or ignoring history, or in any other way distorting what is known, who cares? There's no sides. Just whatever you want truth to be.

The only relevant truth is that Einstein, like Goswami, Planck and others utilize intuition in his scientific work, a fact that both you and Sprinkles now admit as true. This has zilch to do with ex cons, mysticism, QM and all the rest of the fluff that went on for pages and pages, only to return to my original point. Game over. Next.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I really don't give a hoot if it's true or not.
And that so perfectly and aptly characterizes your approach. If you use a source and it happens to contradict what you thought, who cares? You don't "really give a hoot if it's true or not". If you distort the life's work of one of the most respected scientists in history to suit your purposes and you are wrong, who cares? You don't "really give a hoot if it's true or not". If you rely on theories you don't understand and mischaracterize them, who cares? You don't "really give a hoot if it's true or not".

Scientists usually do. So do religious people. So does almost everybody I've met who has identified themselves as a mystic. In fact, sometimes the only thing all have in common is that they are passionate about truth. You don't appear to be. Of the objections raised against arguments, points of fact, or other statements you've made that are verifiable, you've ignored most, concentrating on the ones where you can focus on a single word to twist the statement to mean what you want, because after all, you don't "really give a hoot if it's true or not".

You might find that, scientist or not, others do.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That

And that so perfectly and aptly characterizes your approach. If you use a source and it happens to contradict what you thought, who cares? You don't "really give a hoot if it's true or not". If you distort the life's work of one of the most respected scientists in history to suit your purposes and you are wrong, who cares? You don't "really give a hoot if it's true or not". If you rely on theories you don't understand and mischaracterize them, who cares? You don't "really give a hoot if it's true or not".

Scientists usually do. So do religious people. So does almost everybody I've met who has identified themselves as a mystic. In fact, sometimes the only thing all have in common is that they are passionate about truth. You don't appear to be. Of the objections raised against arguments, points of fact, or other statements you've made that are verifiable, you've ignored most, concentrating on the ones where you can focus on a single word to twist the statement to mean what you want, because after all, you don't "really give a hoot if it's true or not".

You might find that, scientist or not, others do.

I knew when I wrote this that you would take it and run with it, twisting it every which way but loose as you went. Must be thrilling for you to do so.

Whether Thad Roberts is an ex con or not is irrelevant to his integrity and honesty. THAT (ex con) is what I don't give a hoot about, not about integrity and honesty.

I focus on one word as representative of the fact that it is what some scientists employed in their scientific research. You're making a Federal Case out of a simple observation. Get over it..
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Mr. Sprinkles post 32 said:
A few paraphrased quotes I've heard repeated among physicists (I forget who the authors are):

"Ideas are the cheapest things in science."
"Don't believe everything you think."
"For every problem in science, someone, somewhere, will come up with a theory which explains it. And that theory will be wrong." (I love this one.)
"The worst thing a theory can be is vague, because then it's not even wrong. And a wrong theory tells us more than a vague one." (That is one reason why "wrong" theories like classical mechanics are still so useful.)
Frubal on this one!
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I knew when I wrote this that you would take it and run with it, twisting it every which way but loose as you went. Must be thrilling for you to do so.

No. There is nothing thrilling to me about anybody distorting and manipulating truth to promote their views.

You still haven't responded to Einstein's view of quantum physics.
You still haven't responded to numerous other quotes of his.
You have referenced topics from language to physics which you have not studied.
And, worst of all, when challenged (such as when I and others have said you are not accurately depicting what Einstein thought), you have resorted to your superior understanding despite the fact that you have almost no knowledge of any of his works. I don't find that thrilling. I find it extremely depressing.

Whether Thad Roberts is an ex con or not is irrelevant to his integrity and honesty.
So whether someone steals some of the rarest materials on this planet (because they were not from this planet) from his employer is "irrelevant to his integrity and honesty"? You are saying there is no connection between integrity and robbing those who have hired you because they trust you, and not only robbing you but specifically robbing you of something that is valuable to the scientific community, the public, the government, and in terms of how rare what he stole was invaluable to anybody, all so he could get some money? Stealing some of the rarest items on the planet for personal gain from one's employer doesn't have anything to do with integrity in your view?


I focus on one word as representative of the fact that it is what some scientists employed in their scientific research.
You focus on one word that is a translation of a speech you didn't know existed. And you have repeated focused on Einstein's "intuition" despite the fact that this intuition led him to quite literally despise the very aspects of quantum physics you find important.

And as for this further arrogant claim that you have any idea whatsoever as to what scientists employ in their research when you can't even accurately depict Einstein...that is just further indication that you couldn't care less about truth if it gets in the way of dogma. Einstein's views on QM are so very basic it would take a mere minute or two just to confirm how completely he disliked what you find important. You didn't bother with this. And now you wish to characterize what "some scientists [have] employed in their scientific research" based upon your in-depth knowledge of actual scientific research? What research? What scientists? What fields?

You're making a Federal Case out of a simple observation. Get over it..

You've mocked me personally.
You've marginalized the field I work in.
You've distorted, manipulated, and otherwise twisted the words of those I respect.
You've ignored criticisms that you found inconvenient for your view.
You've mocked my knowledge of language and translation in order to further your interpretation of Einstein.
You've repeatedly ignored challenges to your view by simply pretending they weren't there (in that you haven't answered them or even acknowledged they were made).
You've repeatedly denounced empiricism and when challenged have either ignored these challenges or dodged them.

I'm a pretty open-minded individual. I've studied several thousand years of texts from across the world, as well as interviewed, talked to, and tried to learn from a variety of people following different paths. I've joined, practiced, or at least observed numerous religious and spiritual traditions, practices, and groups. When was the last time you read a physics monograph? Or ran a neuroimaging study? If I seem upset, it is because you have treated the single most important thing I value, an honest desire for truth, as something to be manipulated at will to suit your purposes.

And I need nothing more to demonstrate this then the fact that you have characterized what Einstein thought based on less than a dozen lines out of thousands he wrote and many thousands more written about him (including quotes). I have much more, but I do not need it.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That


No. There is nothing thrilling to me about anybody distorting and manipulating truth to promote their views.

You still haven't responded to Einstein's view of quantum physics.
You still haven't responded to numerous other quotes of his.
You have referenced topics from language to physics which you have not studied.
And, worst of all, when challenged (such as when I and others have said you are not accurately depicting what Einstein thought), you have resorted to your superior understanding despite the fact that you have almost no knowledge of any of his works. I don't find that thrilling. I find it extremely depressing.


So whether someone steals some of the rarest materials on this planet (because they were not from this planet) from his employer is "irrelevant to his integrity and honesty"? You are saying there is no connection between integrity and robbing those who have hired you because they trust you, and not only robbing you but specifically robbing you of something that is valuable to the scientific community, the public, the government, and in terms of how rare what he stole was invaluable to anybody, all so he could get some money? Stealing some of the rarest items on the planet for personal gain from one's employer doesn't have anything to do with integrity in your view?



You focus on one word that is a translation of a speech you didn't know existed. And you have repeated focused on Einstein's "intuition" despite the fact that this intuition led him to quite literally despise the very aspects of quantum physics you find important.

And as for this further arrogant claim that you have any idea whatsoever as to what scientists employ in their research when you can't even accurately depict Einstein...that is just further indication that you couldn't care less about truth if it gets in the way of dogma. Einstein's views on QM are so very basic it would take a mere minute or two just to confirm how completely he disliked what you find important. You didn't bother with this. And now you wish to characterize what "some scientists [have] employed in their scientific research" based upon your in-depth knowledge of actual scientific research? What research? What scientists? What fields?



You've mocked me personally.
You've marginalized the field I work in.
You've distorted, manipulated, and otherwise twisted the words of those I respect.
You've ignored criticisms that you found inconvenient for your view.
You've mocked my knowledge of language and translation in order to further your interpretation of Einstein.
You've repeatedly ignored challenges to your view by simply pretending they weren't there (in that you haven't answered them or even acknowledged they were made).
You've repeatedly denounced empiricism and when challenged have either ignored these challenges or dodged them.

I'm a pretty open-minded individual. I've studied several thousand years of texts from across the world, as well as interviewed, talked to, and participated in various people, religious and spiritual traditions, practices, and groups. If I seem upset, it is because you have treated the single most important thing I value, an honest desire for truth, as something to be manipulated at will to suit your purposes.

And I need nothing more to demonstrate this then the fact that you have characterized what Einstein thought based on less than a dozen lines out of thousands he wrote and many thousands more written about him (including quotes). I have much more, but I do not need it.

It is unfortunate that you are so personally attached and apoplectically defensive about your field of study, and I don't care how many years of texts you've studied. That means nothing to me.

You are the one distorting things here, but you don't see it.

I don't care what you say about Thad Roberts. I don't care if it is discovered tomorrow that Einstein had a criminal background. I don't care that Siddhartha slept with a concubine, or that he indulged in lust and hedonism. I only care about what Thad Roberts is saying; what the Buddha is saying; what Einstein is saying. I am not here to judge their characters based on their past lives.

I will post when I am ready, not when you dictate to me what and when I should according to your demands. And I will post what I feel is relevant to the issue at hand, and that issue at the moment is whether Einstein, amongst others, utilized the intuitive mind in their scientific research. I feel that point has been adequately resolved and agreed upon.

You keep wanting to smother everyone with your vast amounts of knowledge and your credentials, which you make a point of letting everyone know about, and to corner them, but as you can see, I won't allow you to do that to me.

Now you are preparing to launch reams and reams of a long-winded, boring spiel about mysticism on the other thread, but as Alan Watts tells us, the dead man gives us all the facts, but tells us nothing.

As for mockery, are you even aware of how you've been insulting? I think not.

*****


The following dialogue is from a book review of interviews with Einstein. The book is entitled: 'Einstein and the Poet: In Search of the Cosmic Man', by William Hermanns:

"Indeed, it is not intellect, [which means book knowledge and empiricism for him], but intuition which advances humanity. Intuition tells man his real purpose in this life... I do not need any promise of eternity to be happy… my eternity is now. I have only one interest: to fill my purpose here where I am. This purpose is not given to me by my parents or my surroundings. It is induced by some unknown factors. These factors make me part of eternity. In this sense I am a mystic...”

As an inherent part of this totality, we are much larger than we usually experience. Einstein's religion, like Spinoza's, is that the universe is rational. The highest calling is to ponder its laws. Our usual ways of knowing are crude and cannot comprehend the coherence and beauty of the universe. Only the heart with its intuition can lead us beyond what we know of the universe and of ourselves.

Einstein leaned forward, "… it is not a religion that teaches that man is made in the image of God—that is anthropomorphic. Man has infinite dimensions and finds God in his conscience. This religion has no dogma other than teaching man that the universe is rational and that its highest destiny is to ponder it and co-create with its laws. There are only two limiting factors: first, that what seems impenetrable to us is as important as what is cut and dried; and: second that our faculties are dull and can only comprehend wisdom and serene beauty in crude forms, but the heart of man through intuition leads us to greater understanding of ourselves and the universe."

Although intuition is what allows us to move forward—is the most important part of thinking—it alone is not enough. Knowledge also has its place, but intuition is the gatekeeper at the most critical juncture. Even though the workings of intuition remain mysterious, it is a reality.

"Isn't truth inherent in man?" I interjected. "You once told me that progress is made only by intuition, and not by the accumulation of knowledge."
"It's not as simple as that," replied Einstein. "Knowledge is necessary, too. An intuitive child couldn't accomplish anything without some knowledge. There will come a point in everyone's life, however where only intuition can make the leap ahead, without ever knowing precisely how. One can never know why but one must accept intuition as a fact."

http://intuition-indepth.blogspot.com/2007/11/einsteins-intuition.html
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is unfortunate that you are so personally attached and apoplectically defensive about your field of study

You've just indicated once again how complete your ignorance of my field is, and at the same time how your utter lack of understanding of the field doesn't in the least prevent you from making statements about it. For the record, researchers in my field are divided in various ways, some trivial and some fundamental. Being defensive of my field would be defending contradicting views.

However, as you have basically know idea what that field is, you don't realize that.

and I don't care how many years of texts you've studied. That means nothing to me.


I know. Because facts, evidence, knowledge, truth, honesty, integrity, respect, and a slew of other things related to trying to ascertain truth/reality mean nothing to you. It doesn't matter if it is Mithras or quantum physics. The fact that you have almost no idea what you are talking about is irrelevant, and it "means nothing to" you.

You are the one distorting things here, but you don't see it.

You haven't studied physics. I have.
You haven't studied languages. I have.
You haven't read Einstein's writings (apart from a few lines). I have.
You haven't studied the history and philosophy of science. I have.
You haven't even studied the history of mysticism. And I have.

How on earth would you have any idea at all what you are distorting and when? Because you read a quote from Einstein on a webpage?

I only care about what Thad Roberts is saying; what the Buddha is saying; what Einstein is saying.
So you care what Einstein is saying. Why, then, don't you read what he has written? If you care what he is saying, why do you know nothing other than quotes mined from whatever websites you've used? It's like saying "I care what Jesus is saying because I read The Da Vinci Code.



I am not here to judge their characters based on their past lives.


No, apparently you are just concerned with obtaining whatever informationyou believe you can twist to suit your needs.


You keep wanting to smother everyone with your vast amounts of knowledge and your credentials, which you make a point of letting everyone know about, and to corner them, but as you can see, I won't allow you to do that to me.

What credentials have I mentioned? That I've studied things? Because apart form undergraduate degrees and work as a graduate researcher, I've said nothing about any credentials I have. Just experience and research.

Now you are preparing to launch reams and reams of a long-winded, boring spiel about mysticism on the other thread, but as Alan Watts tells us, the dead man gives us all the facts, but tells us nothing.
None so blind...

As for mockery, are you even aware of how you've been insulting? I think not.
Mocking and insulting are not the same. If you think I have unfairly characterized you or your position, please tell me where and how.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That


You've just indicated once again how complete your ignorance of my field is, and at the same time how your utter lack of understanding of the field doesn't in the least prevent you from making statements about it. For the record, researchers in my field are divided in various ways, some trivial and some fundamental. Being defensive of my field would be defending contradicting views.

However, as you have basically know idea what that field is, you don't realize that.



I know. Because facts, evidence, knowledge, truth, honesty, integrity, respect, and a slew of other things related to trying to ascertain truth/reality mean nothing to you. It doesn't matter if it is Mithras or quantum physics. The fact that you have almost no idea what you are talking about is irrelevant, and it "means nothing to" you.



You haven't studied physics. I have.
You haven't studied languages. I have.
You haven't read Einstein's writings (apart from a few lines). I have.
You haven't studied the history and philosophy of science. I have.
You haven't even studied the history of mysticism. And I have.

How on earth would you have any idea at all what you are distorting and when? Because you read a quote from Einstein on a webpage?


So you care what Einstein is saying. Why, then, don't you read what he has written? If you care what he is saying, why do you know nothing other than quotes minded from whatever websites you've used? It's like saying "I care what Jesus is saying because I read The Da Vinci Code.





No, apparently you are just concerned with obtaining whatever informationyou believe you can twist to suit your needs.




What credentials have I mentioned? That I've studied things? Because apart form undergraduate degrees and work as a graduate researcher, I've said nothing about any credentials I have. Just experience and research.


None so blind...


Mocking and insulting are not the same. If you think I have unfairly characterized you or your position, please tell me where and how.

I don't think we're having a discussion any longer. I added more material to my last post.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
However, as you have basically know idea what that field is, you don't realize that.

I know. Because facts, evidence, knowledge, truth, honesty, integrity, respect, and a slew of other things related to trying to ascertain truth/reality mean nothing to you. It doesn't matter if it is Mithras or quantum physics. The fact that you have almost no idea what you are talking about is irrelevant, and it "means nothing to" you.
What I find rather amazing is how the poster continues to soldier on as if the sky really is a pretty pink colour, all the while forgetting the rose-tinted glasses sitting astride his nose. At the same time, said poster thinks that science can benefit from his deeply uninformed perspective. In some respects, science can learn something of value from said poster, albeit that something is probably not what the poster expects. There does certainly seem to be an inclination to quote sources that are unreliable, at best, under the pretense that what they have to say is of merit.
 
Gentlemen,

Since it is apparent we cannot agree on the subject of Einstein, I suggest that we move on. There are other things to talk about within the topic, "Demystifying Quantum Physics".
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Gentlemen,

Since it is apparent we cannot agree on the subject of Einstein, I suggest that we move on. There are other things to talk about within the topic, "Demystifying Quantum Physics".

A good place for "mystics" to start would be to spend some time learning about what quantum mechanics actually is, and what it isn't. Until then, any discussion about the subject will be less than fruitful and rather pointless. Similar to creationists who know nothing about classical physics or statistics using Newton's laws or probabilities to argue against evolutionary theory.
 
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idav

Being
Premium Member
Interesting way to run with the word intuition. As if using the word intuition suddenly makes all of science and knowledge inherently mysitical. To me intuition just means common sense and "from the heart" isn't anymore mystical either. Intuition is what comes to us easy without much effort in thought and admittedly Einsteins "intuition" was better than most.

This reminds me of the Episode of Big Bang theory when Sheldons mom was talking about how he gets his knowledge, "All that science stuff, that comes from Jesus".
 
The purpose of this post is similar to the OP: to put QM in its proper context. Whether that context is mysticism, or not, readers must judge for themselves. My goal is simply to provide scientifically-rigorous yet accessible information which will help readers make their own judgments.

Much is made by guys like Deepak Chopra about the mystical significance of "nonlocality". What is it? Very simply, nonlocality can refer to any physical phenomenon where one object has an effect on another, distant object instantaneously.

In QM, nonlocality can occur in certain experimentally-constructed situations which are not necessarily typical in Nature. An entangled pair of particles may be separated by a great distance, while being careful not to let them interact too much with the environment, and then the particles may be measured simultaneously by distant observers. After the experiment, when the observers get together and compare their data, they will notice certain statistical correlations. It has been shown, theoretically and experimentally, that these correlations must have occurred due to an instantaneous influence of one entangled particle on its distant partner. I say "influence" because it turns out that the one particle cannot directly cause anything to happen to the other particle. Another way of saying this is, one observer cannot send a communication or signal to the other observer instantaneously, through the act of doing the measurement on the particle. That would violate Einstein's special relativity, which requires that causal signals or communications cannot travel faster than light. (Other types of faster-than-light phenomena which do not transmit causal signals are okay, according to SR, and quantum nonlocality is one example of this.)

But nonlocality as a general concept is actually much bigger, and stronger, than the QM version. A game of tug-of-war using an idealized, massless rope is nonlocal: pull on one side, and the people on the other side are immediately affected. The game would also be nonlocal if the interaction between the players was mediated by something other than a rope, such as a force of attraction/repulsion, as long as that force did not "travel" with any finite speed but was instead transmitted instantly. These would be direct, causal influences which you could use for faster-than-light communication. They would violate Einstein's special relativity, if they existed (but as far as we know, they don't exist).

Examples of such strong, causal nonlocal phenomena abound in classical physics before Einstein. Contrary to the misleading claims you may have heard, QM was not the first theory of physics to have nonlocal phenomena! It will help to give a brief history of nonlocality in physical theories (actually it will not be history, but rather history + hindsight).

Newton's laws, which govern the ordinary classical physics of billiard balls, projectiles, and levers, and the special case of Newton's law of gravity, which governs orbiting planets and satellites, are nonlocal theories. Change the position or mass of the Sun, and according to the theory, this affects the acceleration of the Earth instantaneously. The Earth and Sun are locked in a game of tug-of-war, with the gravitational force acting as the massless rope. Another example: push down on one end of a perfectly rigid lever, and the other end is raised instantaneously.

Actually, it was realized that realistic levers with mass are not perfectly rigid, and therefore a force exerted at one end, according to Newton's laws, would take time to travel to the other end (the speed at which the force is transmitted is called the speed of sound in the material). So this part of Newton's laws became thought of as practically local for a time. But they soon became nonlocal again. In the late 1700s, Coulomb discovered the force law governing the attraction and repulsion of electrically charged objects. Like Newton's law of gravity, this was a nonlocal force law: wiggle an electric charge over here, and it instantly affects an electric charge over there.

It's important to emphasize that experiments and measurements picked the winning ideas over the losing ideas at every step of the way. We only mention the winning ideas, and skip over the losing ideas and the experiments which distinguished between them, in order to avoid unnecessary complexity. Think of this version of history as the "greatest hits". Do not get the mistaken impression from this simplified way of telling history that the winning ideas won simply because they were cooler than previous ideas. Many cool ideas lost.

Needless to say, like Newton's law of gravity, many experiments tested Coulomb's law and found it agreed with measurements very precisely. So the interactions of charged spheres of metal (which is what experimentalists played with in those days) was nonlocal. Later a nonlocal force law for magnetism was developed, and it was thought that the magnetic field controlling the direction of ships compasses all over Earth was nonlocal. In addition, it was starting to become accepted that matter was made of atoms, and perhaps the time it takes for forces to travel through bulk matter (like a lever) were really the result of the nonlocal force of electricity among atoms; such forces would be transmitted instantaneously between neighboring atoms but only at tiny scales, as-yet-inaccessible to human experimenters. It was also starting to be believed that those same forces among atoms might explain all of chemistry, since experiments had shown that chemical reactions result from playing with electric currents in various materials.

Let's pause for a moment and take partial stock of classical physics before the late 1800s, before Maxwell and Einstein. If the universe was ever seen as a classical, deterministic clockwork, with reductionism and materialism and all the other non-mystical evils reigning triumphant, it was then. At that time it was believed there were a few NONLOCAL forces (gravitation, electric force, magnetic force). These forces all operated within Newton's framework: the F = ma we all learned in intro. physics, and the INTUITIVE backdrop of space and time we are all familiar with in daily experience. So many different experiments and observations could be explained (at least in principle) from this picture, with great economy, that it seemed likely the entire physical world was governed by this framework. And indeed, even today, much of the world can still be approximated by this picture, to a greater or lesser degree of accuracy.

Newton himself, and other classical physicists, worried about the NONLOCALITY of their theories. It seemed absurd and counter-intuitive to some of them. In hindsight, there was no need to worry. Nonlocality has been firmly experimentally established. And we now appreciate more than ever that our intuitions about the fundamental nature of physics are fickle. What was counter-intuitive yesterday becomes intuitive tomorrow. For those physicists, like Feynman, who are delighted by the part of the process which guesses at fundamental laws, intuition has to be relied on because sometimes nothing else is available. But experiment has embarrassed us into submission too many times to trust it. When the intuitive guesses fail (as they often do), we must try the non-intuitive guesses.

Onto that stage, enter Einstein. Suffice it to say that he introduced very counter-intuitive ideas, and he made physics as "local" as it ever was: gravitational and electromagnetic forces--indeed, all forces, including any as-yet-undiscovered ones--must propagate at some finite speed, according to Einstein (the speed of light, at most). They can't be instantaneous, or nonlocal. In addition, he guessed based on his intuition (but did not demonstrate) that QM would be wrong even about the weak nonlocal "influences" it implied. Now experiments have shown pretty convincingly Einstien's intuition was wrong (and it was wrong on the Hubble constant, too, btw). Physics is definitely a little nonlocal ... but, to Einstein's credit, more "local" than we had previously believed.

I leave it to the reader to compare this information to what is suggested about quantum nonlocality by Chopra et al.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
Interesting way to run with the word intuition. As if using the word intuition suddenly makes all of science and knowledge inherently mysitical. To me intuition just means common sense and "from the heart" isn't anymore mystical either. Intuition is what comes to us easy without much effort in thought and admittedly Einsteins "intuition" was better than most.

This reminds me of the Episode of Big Bang theory when Sheldons mom was talking about how he gets his knowledge, "All that science stuff, that comes from Jesus".

Correction: No one is saying that: "using the word intuition suddenly makes all of science and knowledge inherently mysitical." No one is saying anything about science being mystical at all. It isn't. What Einstein himself said is:

“The supreme task of the physicist is to arrive at those universal elementary laws from which the cosmos can be built up by pure deduction. There is no logical path to these laws; only intuition, resting on sympathetic understanding of experience, can reach them.”

...and if you think that translation is inaccurate, and want to go with the one provided by Legion, that says the same thing.

What I see here are knee-jerk reactions to the word 'intuition'. Suddenly, red flags go down and blinders on. "Oh, heavens! They're trying to besmirch Einstein! Is nothing sacred anymore?!LOL

Right. LIke that would make Einstein some pot-smoking leftist radical Berkeley hippie whose mind was warped by years of exposure to cannabis, rendering E=mc2 suspect. Hmmm?....is a warped mind akin to curved space?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Correction: No one is saying that: "using the word intuition suddenly makes all of science and knowledge inherently mysitical." No one is saying anything about science being mystical at all. It isn't. What Einstein himself said is:

No you didn't say that but you said this.

As an inherent part of this totality, we are much larger than we usually experience. Einstein's religion, like Spinoza's, is that the universe is rational. The highest calling is to ponder its laws. Our usual ways of knowing are crude and cannot comprehend the coherence and beauty of the universe. Only the heart with its intuition can lead us beyond what we know of the universe and of ourselves.

And this.
Although intuition is what allows us to move forward—is the most important part of thinking—it alone is not enough. Knowledge also has its place, but intuition is the gatekeeper at the most critical juncture. Even though the workings of intuition remain mysterious, it is a reality.

Your making intuition out to be more. Intuition is not mysterious and can often times be wrong. With knowledge and math we get prediction rather than just guessing based on feelings.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
No you didn't say that but you said this.



And this.


Your making intuition out to be more. Intuition is not mysterious and can often times be wrong. With knowledge and math we get prediction rather than just guessing based on feelings.


Excuse me, but you are reading the material incorrectly. Those are not my words*, but the comments interspersed between Einstein's quotes by the author of the book. Return to my original post and click on the link provided to get it right.

However, Einstein alluded to both feelings and the heart in one of his quotes, as supportive of intuition. I will provide the quote later for you.


To say: "Only the heart with its intuition can lead us beyond what we know of the universe and of ourselves." is the author's paraphrasing of Einstein, who said that only intuition can lead to the laws.

*My words are always in Indigo
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
[youtube]QboBGoAuf8A[/youtube]
Professor Brian Cox A Night With The Stars Part1of4 - YouTube

Onto that stage, enter Einstein. Suffice it to say that he introduced very counter-intuitive ideas, and he made physics as "local" as it ever was: gravitational and electromagnetic forces--indeed, all forces, including any as-yet-undiscovered ones--must propagate at some finite speed, according to Einstein (the speed of light, at most). They can't be instantaneous, or nonlocal. In addition, he guessed based on his intuition (but did not demonstrate) that QM would be wrong even about the weak nonlocal "influences" it implied. Now experiments have shown pretty convincingly Einstien's intuition was wrong (and it was wrong on the Hubble constant, too, btw). Physics is definitely a little nonlocal ... but, to Einstein's credit, more "local" than we had previously believed.

I leave it to the reader to compare this information to what is suggested about quantum nonlocality by Chopra et al.
You can make even quantum nonlocality go away by keeping careful track of what you're doing and which way wavefunctions are propagating.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Excuse me, but you are reading the material incorrectly. Those are not my words*, but the comments interspersed between Einstein's quotes by the author of the book. Return to my original post and click on the link provided to get it right.

However, Einstein alluded to both feelings and the heart in one of his quotes, as supportive of intuition. I will provide the quote later for you.

To say: "Only the heart with its intuition can lead us beyond what we know of the universe and of ourselves." is the author's paraphrasing of Einstein, who said that only intuition can lead to the laws.

*My words are always in Indigo
Your referencing the author to back up your ideas, are you not. You agree with the authors paraphrasing?
 
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