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Demystifying Quantum Physics

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
On the contrary, science has confirmed that the elementary particles they thought existed actually do exist. They have found no reason to account for some mystical transcendent element that doesnt exist. They have confirmed the standard model and found the god particle (higgs boson). Confirming those elements exist puts a huge big dent in the idea that some unaccounted for nonmaterial elements exist.

This is rather interesting. It seems (to me anyway) that this Higgs Boson particle is pretty close what I was describing when I referred to the notion of there being some sort of "animating factor", though scientists are not too keen on calling it the "God particle", nor am I. It was always my opinion that whatever that animating factor or force was, it was something naturally existing, not mystical or "supernatural". There is undoubtedly more to it though as science is continually recieving more and more data with its ongoing experiments.
Our primitive ancestors were completely justified in thinking there was some sort of "spirit" or animate force present in all things that existed...something real and interpenetrating that directly affected their lives and the natural world around them. They were right, and perhaps science has found that "spirit" as it were, or at least part of it. There is nothing supernatural or mystical about it, but the more science discovers, the more illusory and "spirit-like" things become. All of existence being like a "ghost" and all matter being simply a physical manifestation of that "spirit".
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
What the escaped prisoner in Plato's Cave sees when he goes topside is not fact provable via evidence, but it is fact of an even greater reality than the limited reality of the shadows cast on the walls of the cave's interior. It is totally demonstrable but entails that the other prisoners would necessarily have to go see for themselves. It means having to temporarily put their opinions and ideas gained from their prior experience aside.

True. But there are people that claim things all the time. We don't believe them until evidence is provided. That is simple as can be. The plato's cave argument is not a reason to throw out the need for evidence.
Yes, they do. You are creating an artificial, arbitrary scenario that ultimately is within the absolute, because, taken as a whole, all relativity is actually the absolute. You're just dissecting it and looking at what you think is a piece of it; it's not. It is always connected to the whole, to the absolute.

Again, when we talk about Everything, that means there is nothing else to which it can be compared. That is the Absolute. We don't need fact or evidence to prove that. We can see that via Logic.

What you aren't getting is that you don't require an absolute to have a discrepancy. That does not mean that absolutes don't exist but they are simply irrelevant. And even the few absolutes that do exist don't support your argument.

Now you change your story.

If absolutes are a matter of perspective, then they are still relative, but Everything is not a matter of perspective; it is the way things ultimately are perse, and so absolute.

I haven't changed my story. I don't get into ******* contests and this is starting to make me feel like I'm in one.

And everything is a matter of perspective. No exceptions. We cannot "view" something without a perspective. This is one of the unbreakable rules in ToR

Discrimination and duality are not possible without mind, and mind is not possible without consciousness. Because a self requires thought to exist ('I think, therefore I exist') it is not present in consciousness, as consciousness is a condition prior to thought. Therefore, consciousness is non-local, just as TV signals are non-local. They are present before and after the TV is turned on. How else do you suppose a baby already knows the game of peek-a-boo without ever having been taught? Hide and Seek is the basic game of the universe, and babies come fresh from the conscious universe. But as we become more exposed to social indoctrination and mental conditioning, we lose touch with universal consciousness, which is actually our true nature.

You again start saying things that contradict each other. I agree that "thought" perse is not the same thing as "consciousness". However the line in which consciousness became thought is not known but does not require anything beyond our current scientific view.
-support you claim that consciousness is non-local. Nothing you've said so far hints to it.
-Actually we know why babies know peekabo and children hide and seek. Its a game we have evolved to like as it is instinctive to train with "play". Its not some universal phenomenon. For example plants don't do it. Bacteria doesn't do it. Birds don't do it (that I know of). Turtles don't play hide and seek. Mainly mammals.

Again, you have no proof that emergent theory is fact. At this point, it is still hypothesis and conjecture. It is detecting a TV signal and assuming it's source is the TV set. It's wrong.


Its a theory based on evidence and reasoning. Your statements are claims based on nothing. And you have now made the claim that the science is wrong without any counter evidence. I don't need to rebuttal this.

That the nature of the physical world is not very physical.
Support this claim.
You're again misinterpreting what I've said; I never said QM supports my beliefs.

What you call 'physical' is just energy that is changing all the time. All 'physical' phenomena is temporal. It only appears static. There is no such thing as an ocean wave; it is energy-form, as all physicality is energy-form.

Remove your labels; then you might see things a bit more clearly. Reality is not it's description.
And where is your evidence?


Not sure which mysticism you are referring to. The fact of the matter is that, throughout history and in completely different parts of the world, mystics have consistently come to realize the same thing: that the world we think is real via ordinary consciousness, is not what we think it is. QM has just found that same fact out.
Actually QM and what they have come to believe are very different things. The bit that mystics have come to realize around the world is that the world we see is purely based on our interpretation of the world. To blind men the world is different than to those that can see. The sort of Matrix effect if you will. Religious influence as well has caused this trend.

QM states that the quantum level of our universe obeys different laws that seem strange to us as we only feel the affects of Newtonian physics. Nothing more.
 

Contemplative Cat

energy formation
Figured might as well post this here.
it has come to the attention that classic physics is outdated but is clung to like a religion.
QM have eliminated the theory of classical paricles, which mean ultimately nothing is fixed.
The universe is not well behaved. To think such is to cling to an illogical premise.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Figured might as well post this here.
it has come to the attention that classic physics is outdated but is clung to like a religion.
QM have eliminated the theory of classical paricles, which mean ultimately nothing is fixed.
The universe is not well behaved. To think such is to cling to an illogical premise.

It depends on what you mean by "clung too". Do you mean still used? Obviously they are still used because they are useful. It doesn't mean they have to be ultimately correct if they can be utilized. All of engineering on the macro level is done almost entirely with classic physics. Without them we wouldn't have cars, TV's, computers, buildings ect.

If someone clings to Newtonian physics and claims its absolutely true even in the light of further evidence then they would be wrong.
 

Contemplative Cat

energy formation
But to claim particles to be the absolute reality is to ignore that recent evidence.

People cling to this atomic theory "this is how it is" because people tell them uts true.
Before the waves described in QM there must be an energy feild to produce them.

Funny enough this argument happened in India a while back.
They debated the term "anu" (atomic), some philosophers thought the anu meant particles, while other suggested the term means more subtle than the subtle.

The funny thing is, particles are not perceptable to humans, but energy is directly perceptable to humans without any equipment via meditation. Which this mind can imagine why many eastern religions are being shown to be more right than not.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
But to claim particles to be the absolute reality is to ignore that recent evidence.

People cling to this atomic theory "this is how it is" because people tell them uts true.
Before the waves described in QM there must be an energy feild to produce them.

Funny enough this argument happened in India a while back.
They debated the term "anu" (atomic), some philosophers thought the anu meant particles, while other suggested the term means more subtle than the subtle.

The funny thing is, particles are not perceptable to humans, but energy is directly perceptable to humans without any equipment via meditation. Which this mind can imagine why many eastern religions are being shown to be more right than not.

You realize that energy is not a thing right? Energy isn't stuff. Also classical physics breaks down at the quantum level it does not at all make classical physics untrue, it works perfectly well when dealing with large objects with mass. No one has toss it aside, it's just the realization that it isn't enough to describe I suppose if you want to use that word, how the world works.
 

Contemplative Cat

energy formation
Energy is not a thing, but do to the limits of human linguistics it is much easier to describe it like an object.
Energy is nondual, but if energy is a "thing" it becomes monism.

a Zen monk once said
If you think a single thought your wrong,
If you say a single word your in error.

Ultimately anything said can be considered nonsence.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Energy is not a thing, but do to the limits of human linguistics it is much easier to describe it like an object.
Energy is nondual, but if energy is a "thing" it becomes monism.

a Zen monk once said
If you think a single thought your wrong,
If you say a single word your in error.

Ultimately anything said can be considered nonsence.

Umm I'm not sure what you're saying.

But when people in science use the word energy they are talking about something very specific.

You describe Matter as an object I.e. stuff. Energy is something that the stuff has usually in relation to it's position to other stuff.
 

Contemplative Cat

energy formation
The reference to energy, is as a word used to describe the most basic principal of the quantum feild.
Not kinetic or potential energy, but substantial energy that can solidify for a moment into waves that form object phenomena.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
But to claim particles to be the absolute reality is to ignore that recent evidence.

People cling to this atomic theory "this is how it is" because people tell them uts true.
Before the waves described in QM there must be an energy feild to produce them.

Funny enough this argument happened in India a while back.
They debated the term "anu" (atomic), some philosophers thought the anu meant particles, while other suggested the term means more subtle than the subtle.

The funny thing is, particles are not perceptable to humans, but energy is directly perceptable to humans without any equipment via meditation. Which this mind can imagine why many eastern religions are being shown to be more right than not.

Atomic theory and qm have everything to do with each other. Elementary particles are proved they exist. Whatever these particles actually are is anyones guess but there is something there. There is proof of a wave state but they can never eliminate the particle factors. In an atom an electron simply is too fast to be able to predict its location, we shouldnt need qm to tell us that.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
This is rather interesting. It seems (to me anyway) that this Higgs Boson particle is pretty close what I was describing when I referred to the notion of there being some sort of "animating factor", though scientists are not too keen on calling it the "God particle", nor am I. It was always my opinion that whatever that animating factor or force was, it was something naturally existing, not mystical or "supernatural". There is undoubtedly more to it though as science is continually recieving more and more data with its ongoing experiments.
Our primitive ancestors were completely justified in thinking there was some sort of "spirit" or animate force present in all things that existed...something real and interpenetrating that directly affected their lives and the natural world around them. They were right, and perhaps science has found that "spirit" as it were, or at least part of it. There is nothing supernatural or mystical about it, but the more science discovers, the more illusory and "spirit-like" things become. All of existence being like a "ghost" and all matter being simply a physical manifestation of that "spirit".

So the way they found these essential elements is by looking for there frequency. It is that they are energy packets of a specific intensity working together that makes everything we see. This energy, animated something, is within us all, I would almost say it is creation when they say they pops in and out of existence. But please we are trying to demystify qm!
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
So the way they found these essential elements is by looking for there frequency. It is that they are energy packets of a specific intensity working together that makes everything we see. This energy, animated something, is within us all, I would almost say it is creation when they say they pops in and out of existence. But please we are trying to demystify qm!

Yah, it gets interesting to say the least. :D
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Energy is not a thing, but do to the limits of human linguistics it is much easier to describe it like an object.
Energy is nondual, but if energy is a "thing" it becomes monism.

A good example is a wave or a river or a whirlpool. There are no such things as such. They are purely actions. The conceptual mind wants to freeze reality into a form it can understand and encapsulate, and so creates the concept of 'things', where none actually exist. This applies even to itself, the mind beind self-created.

a Zen monk once said
If you think a single thought your wrong,
If you say a single word your in error.


Fundamentally, not one thing exists,
So where can the dust alight?
;)

Sixth Zen Patriarch
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Actually QM and what they have come to believe are very different things. The bit that mystics have come to realize around the world is that the world we see is purely based on our interpretation of the world. To blind men the world is different than to those that can see. The sort of Matrix effect if you will. Religious influence as well has caused this trend.

QM states that the quantum level of our universe obeys different laws that seem strange to us as we only feel the affects of Newtonian physics. Nothing more.

What you continue to misunderstand and distort is that transcendence is beyond perceptual awareness, which is a personal view; an interpretation of the world, as you say. Transcendence is union with Ultimate Reality, not insight via perceptual reality, and Ultimate Reality is universal. It is no particular view. Enlightened minds see the same Reality, which is only ONE Reality. It is, therefore, Absolute, and is all-inclusive of whatever 'discoveries' science comes up with, including Quantum phenomena.

Ultimate Reality is not different from one person to the next; only perceptual reality is, and that is what you are referencing.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
So the way they found these essential elements is by looking for there frequency. It is that they are energy packets of a specific intensity working together that makes everything we see. This energy, animated something, is within us all, I would almost say it is creation when they say they pops in and out of existence.

You need to take one more step in, and transcend the observer.

There is not something that caused something else. The universe itself is the Absolute. But because of our social indoctrination, we see it through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation, thereby creating a duality that exists only in the mind. It is a delusion. When you see a rope as a snake, there is not a rope and a snake; there is only the rope. There has always just been the rope, and there has never, not even once, ever been a snake. What we as rational thinkers call 'the universe' is seen as a collection of separate 'things'. That is due to the space-time-causation filter. When these concepts are dissolved away, we see the universe as it actually is: a single seamless Reality, with ourselves fully integrated into it. IOW, there is no longer observer/observed; subject/object. YOU are the animating force; YOU are the universe itself.



But please we are trying to demystify qm!

The mystical experience only means perfect union with what you call the 'animating force', and that force includes anything and everything that is Quantum behavior. Science wants to hijack QM for itself, and they're just being silly geese (gooses?). They have this weird spooky concept of what mysticism is, and they're quite simply put, totally out to lunch. (They're the Ultimate Reality itself pretending they're scientists! Ooooooh! Spooky! LOL! They just want to have something called 'Special Knowledge' to hold over our heads; it's just another form of spiritual pride, but they don't know that yet.)

Union with Ultimate Reality is union with Everything, just as the drop of water returning to the vast ocean disappears completely in perfect union.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
What you aren't getting is that you don't require an absolute to have a discrepancy. That does not mean that absolutes don't exist but they are simply irrelevant. And even the few absolutes that do exist don't support your argument.

Yes, you do. The things that are in discrepancy must be within a field against which THEY can be seen. Without this field, you have nothing. This field is the Absolute. Figure and Ground.


FieldGround.jpg


When you say 'absolutes', you can only mean 'relative' absolutes. There is only one Absolute, and that is Everything. It contains all 'relative' 'things', which are not things at all, 'things' being only a mental construct.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
True. But there are people that claim things all the time. We don't believe them until evidence is provided. That is simple as can be. The plato's cave argument is not a reason to throw out the need for evidence.

You certainly have a propensity to jump from one extreme to another, don't you?

Once again: there are some things for which factual evidence cannot be provided. You are asking for the traces of the image left behind that a mirror reflects. There are none. You have to go have the experience yourself; you have to stop demanding evidence and go topside to see the Sun for yourself. There is no other way.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
What is your take on this.

I like how he describes it. The particle becomes a "wave of potential" but only one path is ever observed to actualize.

We know when we fire the particle it is already in an excited state. The double slit is to show what the particle or element or photon is doing in this excited state. We can still acknowledge that there was a particle fired at the screen and one detected despite the ghostly potentials that never show to really exist.
 
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