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Deniars of Evolution:

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
Honestly, I don't even think "deconversion" is necessary at all. If people believe, let them believe. For the vast majority of people, there is no inherent harm whatsoever in theistic beliefs, or practicing a religion. There could be harm in specific organizations, but that's a different can of worms. Leaving one group doesn't necessarily have to mean giving up on all religions.

There are a lot of dead people in the Middle East because of religion. There is incredible scientific evidence in the United States because the religious majority resists it. There are school systems teaching "abstinence only" sex ed because of the religious majority, even though the statistics clearly show that this approach causes greater incidents of teen aged pregnancy and STD's. We both know I could go on.

For the sake of civility and peace, the line has to be drawn somewhere, and neither side should cross it -- theists and atheists alike.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are a lot of dead people in the Middle East because of religion.
This is incorrect. There are a lot of dead people because of tribalism. If you take away religion, they find some other thing to represent these tribal dividing lines and use that as the rallying flag for the tribalism to continue.

It is not religion's fault. Other people who are not operating at the tribalistic level as the dominant center of gravity in their lives, also have religion and are functioning at far more civilized levels. You see, it's not religion that decides how you are. There are other, far more deeper reasons that go to human development as a whole, related to things like economics, education, resources, infrastructures, culture, etc. You have to look at the context first, and in each context religion is practiced and approached differently. The common variable is not religion.

There is incredible scientific evidence in the United States because the religious majority resists it.
Again, it's not because of religion. It's because of a worldview that is still fixated on themselves as the center of the universe. Using the Bible to justify that, is merely a rationalization for this deeper anxiety about a displacement of their more narcissistic self-identities as the pinnacle of creation, mankind at the top of the heap, the apple of God's eye, etc. Evolution thrusts a spear into that, just like a heliocentric model of the cosmos did, and does to some extent even today. That's the core problem, not religion.

There are school systems teaching "abstinence only" sex ed because of the religious majority, even though the statistics clearly show that this approach causes greater incidents of teen aged pregnancy and STD's. We both know I could go on.
And all of them have to do with social conservatism, not religion. What you are understandably falling into is seeing those more backward in society, those who are clinging to some imagined nostalgic world of the past in the 1950's where life was 'simpler' trying to find any rationalization to resist change, having co-opt'd their religions as the voice of their social resistance. That view is not shared by many who practice the same religions. The problem isn't religion, but certain groups of people with their resistance to change using the Bible and religion to justify their own inability to adapt. It's really that simple.

For me, to use the Bible as an example, it screams progressiveness, change, and advance. To them it screams "stop! Don't let go of yesterday! You'll let the devil in!". You see, it has to do with the person, and religion will follow.

For the sake of civility and peace, the line has to be drawn somewhere, and neither side should cross it -- theists and atheists alike.
Has nothing to do with theism versus atheism. Those question honestly should have nothing to do with these social and cultural questions. Those should simply have to do with how one shapes their views of Ultimate Truth, not relative truths such as cultural value systems and beliefs.

The line really needs to be drawn between prerational thinking, and rational thinking. Then religion will simply follow.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
This is incorrect. There are a lot of dead people because of tribalism


.

Well that is incorrect.

And correct.

There will be fighting either way, BUT certain religions are perverted and DO promote the fighting.

AND most of the violence is muslim on muslim violence.


If we removed religious differences, much violence would factually stop.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well that is incorrect.

And correct.

There will be fighting either way, BUT certain religions are perverted and DO promote the fighting.
But the ones perverting it are not modernists. They are tribalists. If you look at the majority of those with the same religion as terrorists, they do not act that way. People interpret anything, religion, politics, systems of belief, ideals, societal values, in light of their developmental stage. An warrior mentality will always think in terms of us versus them, regardless of whatever system of identification they attach it to.

AND most of the violence is muslim on muslim violence.
So clearly it's not the religion. It's the culture. If it were the religion, they would not kill each other.

If we removed religious differences, much violence would factually stop.
I completely disagree. You honestly believe that destroying the system they attach their tribalism to will destroy tribalism? No way. They'd just become nationalists then. Education, exposure to a global community, opportunity, economic growth. Those things will make the difference. Not destroying an idol.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
So clearly it's not the religion. It's the culture


.

Wrong again.

Some of the muslimn on muslim fighting is ONLY due to religious differences.


If you took away the religious differences, many would not still be fighting.


You cannot take out religion out of this equation. I have stated you are correct that tribalism is a issue, but we cannot neglect those that pervert religion, knowing they do just that.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
This is incorrect. There are a lot of dead people because of tribalism. If you take away religion, they find some other thing to represent these tribal dividing lines and use that as the rallying flag for the tribalism to continue.
Kind'a.

Religion is a form of tribalism. Ideology, politics, sports, can all cause tribalism, but religion is most definitely one of them.

I can agree, however, that it's not just religion, but tribalism of any form can cause violence.


It is not religion's fault.
Agree.

Religion, as such, distilled away from the equation of humans, it's not. Religion in the hands of humans is a dangerous tool though. Religion is a two edged sword. It can be used for good, and it can be used for evil.

Anyway, that's all I had to say on it. :)
 

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
Yet you believe that dogs came from non-dogs. Hmmm.

In fact, let me be clear.

Anyone who says that evolution says that dogs came from non dogs kind of crap is an outright liar; either intentionally or because they have been lied to themselves.

Now, you have been told that this "dog/non dog" kind of thinking is a lie and it is false. Such a claim has never been made.

So, the next time you decide to spout these kinds of ridiculous phrases, know before you do: You are lying.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
A have a couple brothers who are theists. In the past, they have baited and engaged me in Evolution v. Creation debates. They have finally given up. With one of my brothers, I provided evidence so compelling that the next time we had contact, he seemed upset.

I advised him: "You are a Christian. Your faith is supposed to be based on the forgiveness of sins by the sacrifice of Christ. If you are basing your entire spiritual faith on Genesis, then you are placing your faith in the wrong place; don't you think?"

Why do you work so hard at attacking this science?

Because evolution makes Jesus's sacrifice pointless.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Yet you believe that dogs came from non-dogs. Hmmm.

You cant expect current species classification to apply to species that no longer exist. Wolfs and dogs and any other species were not found then as we find today, to think so is to assume evolution to be false. There simply is no time we can say this is a dog and his parent isnt, the progression being so gradual that it appears unnoticeable, that is until divergence continues over a great period of time. I don't understand why you insist on perpetuating such a strawman. Might as well argue about the real frequency of true yellow, all based on classification for communication purposes. There is no true dog.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
People actually think that humanity's original disobedience was eating a magical piece of fruit by the suggestion of a taking snake. I just can't fathom how anyone can take the story literally with a straight face.
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
People actually think that humanity's original disobedience was eating a magical piece of fruit by the suggestion of a taking snake. I just can't fathom how anyone can take the story literally with a straight face.
It comes down to a sort of, "In for a penny, in for a pound." Going to claim the Bible is, at the very least, the inspired word of god and therefore true and beneficial, then you have to accept that even its most irrational parts are true and beneficial. Not that every Christian approaches the Bible in this manner, but a lot of them do.
 
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