"Denying" Jesus

[Shermana]

Jude 1:4

For certain men whose condemnation was written aboutb long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

The word "Deny" :

Strong's Greek: 720. ???????? (arneomai) -- to deny, say no

The context of "Deny" here can't just mean to "Deny that Jesus is Lord" because they are changing "grace" (a concept that only those who follow Jesus would accept) into a "license for immorality". The word "Deny" can have a few meanings. It CAN mean to "deny that you know someone". However:

Luke 9:23

http://nas.scripturetext.com/luke/9.htm

NAS: after Me, he must deny himself,

You must deny that you exist? Nope. Therefore, the word "Deny" can also mean "refusing" and "not do what is wanted/resisting". Like "He denied her request". Therefore, Jude is NOT necessarily implying those who deny that Jesus is Lord.....

For another example, Acts 7:35 has it as "refused" and "disowned"

NAS: Moses whom they disowned, saying, 'WHO
KJV: Moses whom they refused, saying, Who

Now this can be interpreted as "denying" but its more or less "refusing" in the sense of "resisting".

And in Hebrews 11:24 it inescapably means "refuse".

NAS: when he had grown up, refused to be called
KJV: to years, refused to be called
INT: great having become refused to be called son

How can anyone who "changes grace into a license for immorality" deny that Jesus was Lord if they believe in the concept of grace to begin with? Is the only possible context thus referring to those who Deny Jesus's teachings that they are REFUSING his actual teachings?

Were there those who believed that Jesus was Lord while "denying"/"refusing" his teachings back in the day? Are there to this day? Do they represent the grand majority?


Are there religions and people who have said basically turned the doctrine of Grace into a license to sin of sorts, with one justification or another for said doctrine? What would "immorality" mean in Jude's context exactly? Is Jude saying they are all godless and condemned?

 

[Thief]

Jude 1:4



The word "Deny" :

Strong's Greek: 720. ???????? (arneomai) -- to deny, say no

The context of "Deny" here can't just mean to "Deny that Jesus is Lord" because they are changing "grace" (a concept that only those who follow Jesus would accept) into a "license for immorality". The word "Deny" can have a few meanings. It CAN mean to "deny that you know someone". However:

Luke 9:23





You must deny that you exist? Nope. Therefore, the word "Deny" can also mean "refusing" and "not do what is wanted/resisting". Like "He denied her request". Therefore, Jude is NOT necessarily implying those who deny that Jesus is Lord.....

For another example, Acts 7:35 has it as "refused" and "disowned"


Now this can be interpreted as "denying" but its more or less "refusing" in the sense of "resisting".

And in Hebrews 11:24 it inescapably means "refuse".




How can anyone who "changes grace into a license for immorality" deny that Jesus was Lord if they believe in the concept of grace to begin with? Is the only possible context thus referring to those who Deny Jesus's teachings that they are REFUSING his actual teachings?

Were there those who believed that Jesus was Lord while "denying"/"refusing" his teachings back in the day? Are there to this day? Do they represent the grand majority?


Are there religions and people who have said basically turned the doctrine of Grace into a license to sin of sorts, with one justification or another for said doctrine? What would "immorality" mean in Jude's context exactly? Is Jude saying they are all godless and condemned?

Shall I deny Him?....let's see....
Of Himself He did say...'brother and fellow servant'...
This I won't deny.

In His ministry, He wanted no part of any crown.
So His sovereignty is at question.
But His word is greater than mine....good parables.

Deny the dogma that religion has wrapped around the believing?
Yeah...I can do that.

Deny I know better things as I stand before angels?
Nay...I cannot render a plea of ignorance.

 

[jtartar]

Jude 1:4



The word "Deny" :

Strong's Greek: 720. ???????? (arneomai) -- to deny, say no

The context of "Deny" here can't just mean to "Deny that Jesus is Lord" because they are changing "grace" (a concept that only those who follow Jesus would accept) into a "license for immorality". The word "Deny" can have a few meanings. It CAN mean to "deny that you know someone". However:

Luke 9:23





You must deny that you exist? Nope. Therefore, the word "Deny" can also mean "refusing" and "not do what is wanted/resisting". Like "He denied her request". Therefore, Jude is NOT necessarily implying those who deny that Jesus is Lord.....

For another example, Acts 7:35 has it as "refused" and "disowned"


Now this can be interpreted as "denying" but its more or less "refusing" in the sense of "resisting".

And in Hebrews 11:24 it inescapably means "refuse".




How can anyone who "changes grace into a license for immorality" deny that Jesus was Lord if they believe in the concept of grace to begin with? Is the only possible context thus referring to those who Deny Jesus's teachings that they are REFUSING his actual teachings?

Were there those who believed that Jesus was Lord while "denying"/"refusing" his teachings back in the day? Are there to this day? Do they represent the grand majority?


Are there religions and people who have said basically turned the doctrine of Grace into a license to sin of sorts, with one justification or another for said doctrine? What would "immorality" mean in Jude's context exactly? Is Jude saying they are all godless and condemned?

Shermana,It is not required to understand the exact meaning of the word deny, because it means a shade of different meanings, in different dictionaries.
What it meant to the Jews was that they had rejected Jesus as the coming Christ, the son of God. This is the reason that God turned His favor from the Jews to the Christians, Luke 9:22 says they rejected Jesus.
Jesus, himself said that if they did not recognize who he was they would die in their sins, John 8:24. That means, if they do not believe that Jesus was the Christ, who came to give his life for men, to take away their sins, they would then, NOT have this great ransom sacrifice applied to them, Heb 11:26.
God gave to men ONE name by which we MUST get saved, Acts 4:12. If we do not believe that we have no hope. Notice how John wrote about Jesus at 1John 2:1-4, 22,23, 3:23, 5:9-12.

 

[Shermana]

Shermana,It is not required to understand the exact meaning of the word deny, because it means a shade of different meanings, in different dictionaries.
What it meant to the Jews was that they had rejected Jesus as the coming Christ, the son of God. This is the reason that God turned His favor from the Jews to the Christians, Luke 9:22 says they rejected Jesus.
Jesus, himself said that if they did not recognize who he was they would die in their sins, John 8:24. That means, if they do not believe that Jesus was the Christ, who came to give his life for men, to take away their sins, they would then, NOT have this great ransom sacrifice applied to them, Heb 11:26.
God gave to men ONE name by which we MUST get saved, Acts 4:12. If we do not believe that we have no hope. Notice how John wrote about Jesus at 1John 2:1-4, 22,23, 3:23, 5:9-12.

So you're saying it's not necessary to try to understand the intended meaning of a passage or that grammar is unnecessary or that the passage is too vague? What do you mean "shades" of meaning? I'd think there's only so many meanings and that the author intended something very specific. I don't think you understood what I said in the OP that those who were being claimed to deny Jesus were already probably Christians because they were following the "Grace" doctrine to begin with. Luke 9:22 is not referring to people who already believe in Jesus. Jude 1:4 is. Why don't you give your interpretation of everything involved in Jude 1:4. Who are the ones who are "turning the doctrine of grace into a license to sin"? Obviously it's not referring to the Jews and High Priests who rejected Jesus as Christ altogether. This was the point of the OP in itself, your definition of "deny" is exactly what I'm trying to say is NOT the case in Jude 1:4.

It's one thing to recognize that Jesus was the Christ, even heretics did that, it's another to actually obey his teachings, which is the context of the passage in question. Jesus specifically said in Matthew 7:22-23, there will be many who call him "lord" but he will reject them because they are "doers of Lawlessness" who do not obey His Father's will.

 

[elmarna]

"This is the reason God turned his favor for the Jews to the christians".
Jtartar -- this is your personal belief.
God in his infinate wisdom does not play "favorites".
To love him and want his blessings is what God is about he is merciful and wise beyond mens comprehension.
To anger him is not wise. To be aragent - is not in Gods ways. To think you alone are intitled to his grace because of the religious docterines you follow is indeed aragant!!!

 

[Reptillian]

Just remember that Peter denied Christ three times before the rooster crowed, but was the rock upon which Jesus founded his church.

 

[Shermana]

Just remember that Peter denied Christ three times before the rooster crowed, but was the rock upon which Jesus founded his church.

That however is a different meaning of the Greek word for "deny", which is part of what I am saying. The context in Jude 1:4 is about those who already accept the Doctrine of Grace but turn it into a license of sin, thus, the denial is more about the teachings and commandments rather than denying who he was. As demonstrated, the word can be used for both, but the context in 1:4 is clearly about denying teachings, not the person's identity.

 

[InChrist]

That however is a different meaning of the Greek word for "deny", which is part of what I am saying. The context in Jude 1:4 is about those who already accept the Doctrine of Grace but turn it into a license of sin, thus, the denial is more about the teachings and commandments rather than denying who he was. As demonstrated, the word can be used for both, but the context in 1:4 is clearly about denying teachings, not the person's identity.

Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 1:4

This is verse is not about those who have already accepted the doctrine of grace. Quite the opposite. It is about those who, like the Israelites, who came out of Egypt did not believe or have faith...But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude1:5. It is about those who speak against the Him... and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” vs.14 and ...These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit. vs. 16-19

The emphasis of Jude is on false teachers and their doom. Those who deny the gospel, deny the Person of Jesus Christ (which I primarily believe the scriptures mean denying that He is God and do not give Him proper glory), and who do not have the Holy Spirit nor live by the Spirit. Those who unlike a believer, have no faith In Christ as their God and Savior.

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen. Jude 1;24-25

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I think that we should read it as simply as possible.

1) There's little reason to think that the author of Jude was aware of the Gospel according to Luke, so the usage of "deny" in Luke cannot dictate the usage of the same word in Jude.

2) We should remove all theology from our interpretation that does not appear in Jude.

 

[Pegg]

Jude 1:4
How can anyone who "changes grace into a license for immorality" deny that Jesus was Lord if they believe in the concept of grace to begin with? Is the only possible context thus referring to those who Deny Jesus's teachings that they are REFUSING his actual teachings?

Were there those who believed that Jesus was Lord while "denying"/"refusing" his teachings back in the day? Are there to this day? Do they represent the grand majority?


Are there religions and people who have said basically turned the doctrine of Grace into a license to sin of sorts, with one justification or another for said doctrine? What would "immorality" mean in Jude's context exactly? Is Jude saying they are all godless and condemned?

Jude could see that not all of his fellow Christians were winning the war against Satan. An emergency situation faced the flock. Corrupt men had “slipped in,” writes Jude. These men were subtly promoting immorality. And they cleverly rationalized their deeds, “turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct.”
Perhaps, like some ancient Gnostics (who were not christian, but some gnostics converted to christianity), they reasoned that the more one sinned, the more one could receive of God’s grace—so, in effect, it was better to sin more! That is how they turned 'Grace' (the undeserved kindness of God) into an 'excuse' or a reason to keep sinning.

In effect they were saying, 'God is forgiving and he is full of Grace so even if we sin, he will forgive us' That was false reasoning on their part and its the attitude that Jude was warning christians to avoid.

And this sort of reasoning denies Christs clear warnings that the wicked and those practicing unrighteousness will be judged adversely:

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

Revelation 22:12 “‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work

So the 'denying' that was taking place was that no harm would come to you by continuing to practice sin...which is contrary to Jesus teachings.

 

[Shermana]

Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 1:4

This is verse is not about those who have already accepted the doctrine of grace. Quite the opposite. It is about those who, like the Israelites, who came out of Egypt did not believe or have faith...But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude1:5. It is about those who speak against the Him... and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” vs.14 and ...These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit. vs. 16-19

The emphasis of Jude is on false teachers and their doom. Those who deny the gospel, deny the Person of Jesus Christ (which I primarily believe the scriptures mean denying that He is God and do not give Him proper glory), and who do not have the Holy Spirit nor live by the Spirit. Those who unlike a believer, have no faith In Christ as their God and Savior.

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen. Jude 1;24-25

That would be completely ignoring the context of where it says that they turn "Grace" into a license for immorality. As for denying that He is G-d, Jude does not say that whatsoever, and that would be another example of Trinitarian mangling of a text to promote their Theology that simply is not there. I often see people say that G-d must be Jesus because it says G-d is savior, they usually ignore or refuse to read Obadiah 1:28 where it says G-d sends saviors. 24-25 are not talking about Jesus. If the verse was not about those who believe in the "doctrine of Grace", why would it possibly say "Those who turn grace into"....what's the point?

This is a perfect example of the purpose of the OP to show interpretations that are not at all consistent with what Jude was saying, thank you.

 

[Shermana]

Jude could see that not all of his fellow Christians were winning the war against Satan. An emergency situation faced the flock. Corrupt men had “slipped in,” writes Jude. These men were subtly promoting immorality. And they cleverly rationalized their deeds, “turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct.”
Perhaps, like some ancient Gnostics (who were not christian, but some gnostics converted to christianity), they reasoned that the more one sinned, the more one could receive of God’s grace—so, in effect, it was better to sin more! That is how they turned 'Grace' (the undeserved kindness of God) into an 'excuse' or a reason to keep sinning.

In effect they were saying, 'God is forgiving and he is full of Grace so even if we sin, he will forgive us' That was false reasoning on their part and its the attitude that Jude was warning christians to avoid.

And this sort of reasoning denies Christs clear warnings that the wicked and those practicing unrighteousness will be judged adversely:

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

Revelation 22:12 “‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work

So the 'denying' that was taking place was that no harm would come to you by continuing to practice sin...which is contrary to Jesus teachings.

Very good Pegg, you pretty much got it, it's about those who claim to believe in Jesus but refuse to obey his actual teachings, thinking that they can sin and commit whatever they want while having "Grace". The word "Deny" here is often confused (as in the above example) to promote a Trinitarian or antinomian theology where the context clearly suggests otherwise.

 

[InChrist]

That would be completely ignoring the context of where it says that they turn "Grace" into a license for immorality. As for denying that He is G-d, Jude does not say that whatsoever, and that would be another example of Trinitarian mangling of a text to promote their Theology that simply is not there. I often see people say that G-d must be Jesus because it says G-d is savior, they usually ignore or refuse to read Obadiah 1:28 where it says G-d sends saviors. 24-25 are not talking about Jesus. If the verse was not about those who believe in the "doctrine of Grace", why would it possibly say "Those who turn grace into"....what's the point?

This is a perfect example of the purpose of the OP to show interpretations that are not at all consistent with what Jude was saying, thank you.

It may be mentioned in Obadiah and elsewhere that God sends saviors, but these are always saviors or deliverers for the people in a physical sense for physical earthy struggles or battles. Jesus is always referred to as the Savior, the One and Only Savior who saves people from sin and saves them spiritually for eternity.

I realize you have a different perspective, but it makes perfect sense to me for the text to say that those who creep into groups of believers turn the grace of God into lewdness and denial because these are those who don't believe in submitting their lives to Christ the first place, they are only use the message of grace as an excuse for their own selfish, sinful desires.

 

[Shermana]

It may be mentioned in Obadiah and elsewhere that God sends saviors, but these are always saviors or deliverers for the people in a physical sense for physical earthy struggles or battles. Jesus is always referred to as the Savior, the One and Onlhttp://www.religiousforums.com/forum/scriptural-debates/128636-denying-jesus-2.html#post2826460y Savior who saves people from sin and saves them spiritually for eternity.

Where exactly does it say that Jesus is the ONLY savior, I see that he is "The savior of the world", but that in no ways implies that he's not still A Savior sent by G-d, who is THE Savior who sends saviors. Please show a quote that says that Jesus alone is the ONLY savior (and we shall examine the grammar too). As far as I see, Jesus is "The savior" in the sense that he is sent by G-d who is THE savior.

http://bible.cc/search.php?q=%22the+savior%22

For instance, Acts 13:23

"From this man's descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised. ...

G-d has brought the Savior Jesus. Now we have an article in the translation...but guess what....there is no article in the text. THis is one of the cases where the KJV actually gets it right. A Savior.

Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour Jesus

- KJV

Also interesting, is that the quote of Paul in Romans 11:26, the KJV gets wrong. There is no article. Neither is there in Isaiah 59:20 where it quotes from.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

It should say "A deliverer".

The ESV honestly translates Isaiah 59 but does not do the same for Romans 11:26 whch quotes it.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“And a Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the LORD.

http://esv.scripturetext.com/romans/11.htm

English Standard Version (©2001)
And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;

Ro 11:26.

I have to wonder if they did that intentionally and if they feel the cognitive dissonance. It is clearly A savior.

I realize you have a different perspective, but it makes perfect sense to me for the text to say that those who creep into groups of believers turn the grace of God into lewdness and denial because these are those who don't believe in submitting their lives to Christ the first place, they are only use the message of grace as an excuse for their own selfish, sinful desires.

And isn't that exactly what I'm saying, minus the Trinitarian part? Obviously, they believed in the concept of grace to begin with, which was a Christian concept that involved believing in Jesus. Do you think it really matters whether one believes Jesus is G-d in order to submit their lives to him? Do you think the Arians didn't submit their lives to him? If anything, I'd say that those who believe Jesus is G-d are rarely that in line with his teachings, so it obviously can't just be about believing that he's G-d, or even related to such. I have no idea why one would need to obey Trinitarian doctrine to "submit their lives to Christ". If anything, they need to submit their lives to the Father through obeying the TEACHINGS of the Christ. Do you have any idea how many "Trinitarians" (and Modalists) have believed Jesus was G-d and savior and did nothing close to what Jesus actually taught them to do?

Therefore, the word "deny" in this case must in fact be referring to the teachings and commands and NOT the character/identity of Jesus in this instance.

 

[obi one]

"This is the reason God turned his favor for the Jews to the christians".
Jtartar -- this is your personal belief.
God in his infinate wisdom does not play "favorites".
To love him and want his blessings is what God is about he is merciful and wise beyond mens comprehension.
To anger him is not wise. To be aragent - is not in Gods ways. To think you alone are intitled to his grace because of the religious docterines you follow is indeed aragant!!!

This is a strange response from a Muslim. While I agree it is not wise to be arrogant, the muslim faith seems to think apostates to its religion are worthy of death. Case in point being a "Christian" pastor, in Iran, waiting for a death sentence because he didn't stay a muslim.

And I agree with seeking God's blessings, but the world at large seems to be having fewer and fewer blessings. Case in point, this week tornadoes in the Midwest (40 dead). This includes the whole Muslim community at large.

While I agree that God's "favor", blessing, apparently went to Gentiles for a period, it is also clear, that ultimately, the blessing will eventually return to the original root of the vine. And the Gentiles, because of their sins, are in for a reckoning.

 

[miss interpret]

I actually think it is a warning about returning to the old law and self righteousness as opposed to trusting in salvation through Grace by the sacrifice of Jesus.denying yourself is more about counting yourself or your own reputation and deeds as nothing, like "burning the old self or flesh" and relinquishing yourself to God's will and ways.

 

[Shermana]

I actually think it is a warning about returning to the old law and self righteousness as opposed to trusting in salvation through Grace by the sacrifice of Jesus.denying yourself is more about counting yourself or your own reputation and deeds as nothing, like "burning the old self or flesh" and relinquishing yourself to God's will and ways.

Quite the opposite, it's about Denying Jesus's teachings which are quite often about obeying "The old law". The very context is of those who believe in this "grace" doctrine as an excuse to sin. And what is sin? "Sin is Lawlessness". Those who don't go by the "old Law" are the ones who deny Jesus in Jude's sense. Read 1 John? 1 John says basically the same thing, more explicitly. "Sin is Lawlessness". It's not about "returning" to the Old Law, it's about STAYING with the "Old Law". Matthew 7:22-23 is quite explicit, Jesus will reject all "doers of Lawlessness". All those who say to not obey the least of the commandments shall be called "the least in the kingdom".

Otherwise, you'll have to explain that you think Christians are allowed to defraud, cheat, fornicate, hit their parents, and if you say no, you'll need to find verses that address this that aren't explicitly referring to Mosaic Law.

 

[miss interpret]

Quite the opposite, it's about Denying Jesus's teachings which are quite often about obeying "The old law". The very context is of those who believe in this "grace" doctrine as an excuse to sin. And what is sin? "Sin is Lawlessness". Those who don't go by the "old Law" are the ones who deny Jesus in Jude's sense. Read 1 John? 1 John says basically the same thing, more explicitly. "Sin is Lawlessness". It's not about "returning" to the Old Law, it's about STAYING with the "Old Law". Matthew 7:22-23 is quite explicit, Jesus will reject all "doers of Lawlessness". All those who say to not obey the least of the commandments shall be called "the least in the kingdom".

Otherwise, you'll have to explain that you think Christians are allowed to defraud, cheat, fornicate, hit their parents, and if you say no, you'll need to find verses that address this that aren't explicitly referring to Mosaic Law.

Jesus kept the old laws as he would being a jew but his biggest problem was with the religious leaders of the time who putting unnecessary burdens on the jews and often ignoring the rules themselves.Your sins are forgiven past present and future so you are saved once you accept Jesus but once saved we are no longer slaves to sin we are slaves to righteousness, where even our best deeds before were as filthy rags before God now through the righteousness all our deeds are seen as righteous.believers can sin and always will sin as all flesh is sinful it is our nature but as believers we will do our best not to sin.

 

[Shermana]

Jesus kept the old laws as he would being a jew but his biggest problem was with the religious leaders of the time who putting unnecessary burdens on the jews and often ignoring the rules themselves.Your sins are forgiven past present and future so you are saved once you accept Jesus but once saved we are no longer slaves to sin we are slaves to righteousness, where even our best deeds before were as filthy rags before God now through the righteousness all our deeds are seen as righteous.believers can sin and always will sin as all flesh is sinful it is our nature but as believers we will do our best not to sin.

I love when people dodge the question when they are asked if they believe they can go sin as much as they like and what teachings they are exactly supposed to follow. Jude hit the nail on the head. Let me put this more simply: Do you think there is any actual penalty for sinning, and what do you think is the reason a believer should even refrain from sinning? What is to keep him from doing bad things if he thinks he is forgiven for anything he does? Does he have a license to sin? Is he able to do whatever he wants or does it affect his so-called "Salvation"?

And the filthy rags thing is from a total out-of-context interpretation of Isaiah 64. Jesus specifically said you had to "work hard' to enter through the narrow gate.

I have made it very clear that Jesus was teaching against the Pharisee's artificial and unscriptural teachings, not the Law itself.

 

[miss interpret]

I love when people dodge the question when they are asked if they believe they can go sin as much as they like and what teachings they are exactly supposed to follow. Jude hit the nail on the head. Let me put this more simply: Do you think there is any actual penalty for sinning, and what do you think is the reason a believer should even refrain from sinning? What is to keep him from doing bad things if he thinks he is forgiven for anything he does? Does he have a license to sin? Is he able to do whatever he wants or does it affect his so-called "Salvation"?

And the filthy rags thing is from a total out-of-context interpretation of Isaiah 64. Jesus specifically said you had to "work hard' to enter through the narrow gate.

I have made it very clear that Jesus was teaching against the Pharisee's artificial and unscriptural teachings, not the Law itself.

lol I did not dodge the question at all you just do not understand Grace.If Jesus wanted us to keep the law for our salvation why did he come to fullfill that law, why did he reduce it to two when asked?salvation is now through Grace not works so none shall boast, we keep the commandments out of love who is forgiven much forgives much, the parable of the debtor is very interesting and shows that some do not realise how much they have been forgiven and continue as if not forgiven at all.They way we live our lives as believers is very important as it shows the world who we believe on, it shows we are different, it shows we can love because we were first loved ourselves, if we Love God why would we want to disappoint him with bad behaviour but when we fail and fail we will we should be secure in the fact our salvation is secure, new mercies every day, that tells me God knows we will mess us each and every day, the enemy would try to put condemnation on us to try and make us feel unworthy of coming to God, but now there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.