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Detroit police chief says armed citizens deter crime

dust1n

Zindīq
This is only what we have been trying to say to anti-gun posters in every gun-debate thread on RF... ever.

Okay. Well, it applies to everyone, including the OP in this instance, which I why I mentioned the lack of evidence for the claim made.

I'm not sure if I would be considered an anti-gun posters. I don't have interest in taking anyone's guns away, at least without extremely good cause. On the other hand, I want nothing to do with them and find the fetishism incredibly disgusting.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
My original quote was: "Apparently There are people who believe that it would be better for a woman to be raped rather than for her to kill her attacker in self-defense." Meaning some people would prefer that the former happen over the latter if it actually came down to it, not that those were the only two possibilities if such a situation were to occur. The fact that you attempted to twist it into something outside my actual point is not my problem, and is actually quite telling.

OK, if you're not presenting a false dichotomy, (IOW, that the only possible outcomes are being raped or shooting somebody to death), then you are presenting a straw man - a false position that you find easier to debate against than what has actually been said. IOW, you're claiming that if you DON'T want to murder people left and right who you feel threatened by, that must mean you WANT to get raped. Who said that?

Either way, you've tried exactly this tactic on me ("Kill or get raped! Choose now!") a number of times and it has never worked before. It won't work now. I PREFER to NEITHER be raped NOR shoot somebody to death.

And so? What have you proven by asking me this again?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Your exact term was "soaring" crime:

soaring - definition of soaring by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
(emphasis added)

Seems you lied. Our crime is not ascending, it is falling. And has been for a while.

Put the dictionary away before you hurt yourself. You can't make a convincing argument by selecting one single word out of a perfectly lucid post and banging on and on about what the dictionary has to say about it. That's why we had to make a "feminism" DIR - for grown-ups to talk about feminism without having to argue about the meaning of the word. Rising and soaring are not synonyms anyway, so your efforts to pick apart the word I chose are still wasted. Soaring CAN mean rising, but it can also mean "maintaining a high altitude".
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I am stunned. He is right of course. However, I can't believe a police chief in a heavily liberal area has the courage to say this.

Detroit police chief: Legal gun owners can deter crime | The Detroit News
So... the police chief of a city recently named "most dangerous city in America" praises the effects of concealed handguns on his city's crime rate, while standing just across the river from a city where handguns are practically illegal and that recently went for more than two years without a homicide?

My headline for the story would probably be "Detroit police chief is poor judge of irony".
 

Alceste

Vagabond
My intentions were not to paint a picture of guns being ubiquitous in the United States. Clearly, they aren't, considering the number of people who are anti-gun violence and anti-gun ownership.

I wasn't pulling that scenario out of my ***. There are parts of Norfolk and Newport News (VA) that are less safe for living, primarily attributable to drugs and relatable violence. That type of scenario certainly doesn't happen everyday, though.

I wanted to convey to you the differences in relatablility. Often, in debate, you insist on comparing American issues to Canadian issues, when our culture and demographical concerns can be quite different.

Don't simplify as it relates to the underpriviliged. Those who live in crime infested areas are typically imbedded in horrible cycles of dependence, themselves. If you live below or at the poverty level, it's unlikely that you can up and leave to find greener, safer pastures. Unfortunately, in our country, our underpriviliged areas are often synonymous with our more crime ridden areas.

Alceste, poverty, drug abuse, lack of education and cultural attitudes direclty correlate to crime in the United States.

You hear about the school shootings which may happen in suburbia to seemingly normal people in normal communities and gun violence does happen everywhere. IN addition to the given - mental disturbances and illnesses behind such tragedy - demographics do play a direct role in crime and violence in the United States.

This is what makes Detroit a more violent place vs. my own city. This is what makes New York a more violent place over my own city. Population, demographics, culture - all of this has an impact on crime.

As diverse as your country is - America is even moreso and we can't compare your country's demographics to our own. Honestly - it's like comparing apples to oranges.

Still, statistically, more people die each year in the US via automobile than via gun violence. That has yet to change, last I checked...

It's not apples and oranges at all. Poverty correlates strongly with crime, drug addiction, lack of education, violence, yada yada yada everywhere in the world. Including Canada. What's unique about the US is that INSTEAD of implementing public policies that are proven to alleviate poverty, many if not most Americans seem to believe everybody should pack a gun around to defend themselves against the poor. What's the point, when the poor have guns too? All you're going to do is get more people killed.

I don't buy the argument that the US is "more diverse" than Canada. In Toronto - our largest city, the population is fully half visible minorities. Half of those are first generation immigrants - these are people from all over the world, including refugees from extremely violent, extremely poor countries.

What we DON'T have is sprawling ghettos where the poor are all swept into a corner together and forgotten about, then blamed for their own misfortunes when those areas become hotbeds of crime, ignorance and violence. *

But even in this respect, America is not unique. Ghettos everywhere in the world are hotbeds of crime and violence. It's just that industrialized nations generally try to avoid creating ghettos through completely idiotic social, urban planning and economic policies. That works WAY better than guns, believe me. When they fail, as they did in the UK and France, surprise surprise! The resulting ghettos become hotbeds of crime and violence even there.

It's not that I don't hear you or understand your point. Wherever the poor, desperate and forgotten are concentrated, the streets are not safe. That's true everywhere. I simply disagree with you that the specific issues America is dealing with exist nowhere else in the world, or that the "everybody should get a gun" solution many Americans favour could ever be as effective at reducing violent crime as a reasonable economic policy would be.

*(With the important exception of our reservation system, which is a breeding ground for violence, crime and addiction).
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
That stuff almost never happens in my country, and when it does it is usually much less awful because we aren't all armed to the teeth with military calibre weapons designed specifically for killing people, so neither is the average unhinged shooter. They're trying to get the job done with dad's moose rifle, and therefore highly vulnerable to a physical takedown after the first shot.


Of course I was only speculating. These type of things hardly ever happen anywhere...
 

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
Put the dictionary away before you hurt yourself. You can't make a convincing argument by selecting one single word out of a perfectly lucid post and banging on and on about what the dictionary has to say about it. That's why we had to make a "feminism" DIR - for grown-ups to talk about feminism without having to argue about the meaning of the word. Rising and soaring are not synonyms anyway, so your efforts to pick apart the word I chose are still wasted. Soaring CAN mean rising, but it can also mean "maintaining a high altitude".
Your post was a single sentence. You said US crime is rising. You are wrong. Own up to your mistake.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member

1991 was the height of the crack epidemic. It was also 18 years after Roe v. Wade (an important factor in the crime rate, according to Levitt and Donohue). It's also 19 years after the start of the phaseout of leaded gasoline, and there's a suspected link between environmental lead and violent crime.

... but yes, I'm sure that this drop in crime is due to so many people having guns. We'll just ignore the fact that countries without widespread defensive firearms experienced similar drops in crime over the same period.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
All the while more folks are carrying concealed weapons legally.
How has the percentage of people with concealed weapons changed over time?

The percentage of both gun owners and households with guns in the US has been decreasing steadily for several decades:

120731095634-declining-gun-ownership-chart-story-top.jpg

Analysis: Fewer U.S. gun owners own more guns - CNN.com
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
And this:

That is a left wing organization.

is a good example of the ad hominem fallacy.

Are the numbers wrong?

Edit: is Gallup also a "left wing organization"?

A clear societal change took place regarding gun ownership in the early 1990s, when the percentage of Americans saying there was a gun in their home or on their property dropped from the low to mid-50s into the low to mid-40s and remained at that level for the next 15 years. Whether this reflected a true decline in gun ownership or a cultural shift in Americans' willingness to say they had guns is unclear. However, the new data suggest that attitudes may again be changing. At 47%, reported gun ownership is the highest it has been in nearly two decades -- a finding that may be related to Americans' dampened support for gun-control laws. However, to ensure that this year's increase reflects a meaningful rebound in reported gun ownership, it will be important to see whether the uptick continues in future polling.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
So... the police chief of a city recently named "most dangerous city in America" praises the effects of concealed handguns on his city's crime rate, while standing just across the river from a city where handguns are practically illegal and that recently went for more than two years without a homicide?
My headline for the story would probably be "Detroit police chief is poor judge of irony".
Don't look know, but you're referring to an entirely different country.
But if different countries are relevant for comparison, let's look at Brazil,
with it's strict gun control & higher murder rate.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I think you could use some more hysterical adjectives in there. Because, you know, the more you have, the more "right" you are.

Hysterical adjectives? Untrained, etc? :biglaugh:

I don't mind guns..... honestly. I'm sad that the UK is quite so 'locked down' against them. (I used to make miniature 'turn-off pistols, and had to smash 'em all up in 2001 due to incoming legislation). It's just that the USA is utterly awash with 'em.
And most people believe in insurance cover to protect from known risks.
Some European countries insist on mandatory 'third party cover' for every single adult in the country(all risks). I think Holland requires this.

The USA is the biggest promoter of international disarmament, and sometimes even does disarm whole countries. But it will never be able to cure itself. So anybody can get a gun, and nobody has to insure themselves in case of accident.

If you allowed motorists to drive without insurance....... ??
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
There are worse things than guns....
Man Killed By 'Atomic Wedgie'

You mean this?.........
MCLOUD, Oklahoma - 33-year-old Brad Davis was arrested Tuesday night after police say he killed his stepfather by suffocating him with his own underwear.................

That's the problem with your country, friend. Awash with unsupervised unwashed underwear. Quite crazy. And all uninsured. :p
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Your post was a single sentence. You said US crime is rising. You are wrong. Own up to your mistake.

Apex, your efforts are painful to watch. Go reread my original post if you can't remember what I wrote. "Rising" and "soaring" are not the same word, and most words have more than one meaning. You need context to deduce which meaning is intended. That's all you're getting from me down this road. I'm not going to play this silly game with you.
 
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Alceste

Vagabond
Stunned?? This is DETROIT, not Minneapolis or Des Moins. :facepalm:

detroitcrimemap_zps650b7d70.jpg

Click on source to go to the site and interact with the map.

Hell's bells! Windsor looks nice and peaceful, though. :D (Actually, it is - I've been there - I don't know why the Detroitians who are sick of getting shot at and robbed don't just immigrate. They could still shop at the same grocery store they're used to and everything.)
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
Itd be nice to be able to filter them to compare gun related to non gun related;
  • those where an aggressor had/used a gun
  • those where an escalator had/used a gun
  • those where a defender had/used a gun
  • those where an observer had/used a gun
  • And combinations thereof
As it is - all it does is make it look like guns are responsible for all of it (which I am sure is not the case)
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
Itd be nice to be able to filter them to compare gun related to non gun related;
  • those where an aggressor had/used a gun
  • those where an escalator had/used a gun
  • those where a defender had/used a gun
  • those where an observer had/used a gun
  • And combinations thereof
As it is - all it does is make it look like guns are responsible for all of it (which I am sure is not the case)
Only if one doesn't bother to read the title text and map key. :shrug:

In any case, the point of my post was to show why the police chief of Detroit would say armed citizens deter crime. I know that if I had to live in such a crime choked city I might consider having a gun at hand.
 
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