Did Christ really exist ?

[joelr]

The second coming of Jesus is mentioned 11 times in the Old Testament.

Exactly. Professor of the Hebrew Bible Francesca Stavrakopoulou explains at 4:04
that the OT was re-worked and highly influenced by the Persian religion in 5BC. One of the main concepts was the idea of a world savior. Also good vs evil, end of times apoctalyiptic ideas, resurrection at the end of times and more were Zoroastrian ideas.

The Jewish scribes decided they too were going to get a savior and wrote the prophecies. The NT was fiction intended to make the Jewish religion also get a savior demigod and make the prophecies come true. The resurrected saviors were all the rage in that region and time.

 

[Skywalker]

Exactly. Professor of the Hebrew Bible Francesca Stavrakopoulou explains at 4:04
that the OT was re-worked and highly influenced by the Persian religion in 5BC. One of the main concepts was the idea of a world savior. Also good vs evil, end of times apoctalyiptic ideas, resurrection at the end of times and more were Zoroastrian ideas.

The Jewish scribes decided they too were going to get a savior and wrote the prophecies. The NT was fiction intended to make the Jewish religion also get a savior demigod and make the prophecies come true. The resurrected saviors were all the rage in that region and time.

The Old Testament talking about the Messiah reappearing in victory is a reference to the second coming of Jesus.

 

[joelr]

There are verses in the Tanakh that talk about the second coming of Jesus. The prophecies about the second coming of Jesus arent mentioned there by Christians to make Jesus look credible-they were already there in the Jewish Bible. Does the Old Testament truly predict a second advent of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

"Question: "Does the Old Testament truly predict a second advent of the Messiah?"

Answer: The Old Testament does prophesy the second coming of Christ, also referred to as the second advent of the Messiah. Some Old Testament prophecies concern the first advent, when Christ was born as a human being. Others concern the second advent, which is the ultimate triumph of this Messiah. It’s important to remember that prophecy does not describe the future in the same detail as history describes the past. So, while the prophecies of the Old Testament certainly describe both the first and second advents, most early interpretations of these prophecies melded them into a single event. Particularly during the years leading up to Jesus’ birth, it was assumed Messiah would be a political/military figure with an immediate worldly kingdom (Luke 19:11). In the light of Jesus’ ministry, it is possible to understand the true purpose of Christ and the real nature of His kingdom.

A careful look at Old Testament prophecies shows an underlying assumption of two advents. Micah 5:2 and Isaiah 7:14 predict the first advent. Separately, Isaiah 53:8–9 predicts a suffering and dying Messiah, who will be given life and greatness according to Isaiah 53:11–12. Daniel 9:26 describes the Messiah being killed after His appearance. At the same time, prophets such as Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) say this same “pierced” Messiah will be seen again by His enemies. So the clues are there.

Many Old Testament prophecies foretell the ultimate triumph of Christ, which will occur at the second advent. These include statements from the books of Zechariah (Zechariah 9:14–15; 12:10–14; 13:1; 9:14–15); Amos (Amos 9:11–15); Jeremiah (Jeremiah 30:18; 32:44; 33:11, 26); and Joel (Joel 3:1); which describe the Messiah coming in triumph to lead Israel into salvation. Note that these are in the context of passages such as Deuteronomy 30:3–5and so are predictions of the time of Messiah’s final victory.

Also, Scripture records Jesus making direct comparisons to Old Testament prophecies when making His own claims to a second advent. For example, His words in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27parallel the descriptions of Isaiah 52:15 and Isaiah 59—62.

All in all, the Hebrew Scriptures indicate that the Promised One would appear, be cut off, and then reappear in victory. The first advent has occurred; the second is still future. Both the New and Old Testaments predict a second advent of the Messiah."

Right and what Professor F.S. is talking about in 5 BC is that the Persians were invading Judea but allowed the religious leaders to update their religion. Much of the Persian cult was absorbed into the OT over these few hundred years:

"Historical features of Zoroastrianism, such as messianism, judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Greek philosophy,[7] Christianity,"
Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia

Messianism was the Persian belief in a world savior, virgin born and the Jews wanted one as well. The dying/rising aspect, baptism, a passion, sin forgiving, entry into the afterlife were all features of the mystery religions also common at the time. Christianity was the merging of Persian, Hellenistic (mystery religions) and Jewish belief into a new religion.

 

[joelr]

The Old Testament talking about the Messiah reappearing in victory is a reference to the second coming of Jesus.

If you listen to what the Professor is saying, those passages were written into the OT during the Persian occupation. The Jewish scribes were like "we want a messiah also.."
Whatever other myths they wrote about the messiah, who cares?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You said using knowledge gained from PhD Carrier is not being informed. ...

No. What I said was:

@joelr , I'm so pleased that you found Carrier but being a Carrier groupie is not the same as being informed.

I've been aware of Richard Carrier since my early days at iidb. He is a smart guy. He may even be correct. But he is also a strong proponent of a minority opinion. Rather than demonstrating an awareness of this fact you quote him as received truth. I'll leave you to your dogmatism.

In the future, please whine less, try to understand what you're reading, and avoid distorting my comments.

 

[Skywalker]

If you listen to what the Professor is saying, those passages were written into the OT during the Persian occupation. The Jewish scribes were like "we want a messiah also.."
Whatever other myths they wrote about the messiah, who cares?

Those passages being written during Persian occupation doesn't mean they have Persian origins. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So they're still waiting for him to rise from the grave?

Some of them are, some of them aren't.

 

[joelr]

Metaphors have nothing to do with the creation of man.

No humans emerged out of Africa some 100,000 years ago. Mesopotamian myths came much later then around 900BC came the Israelites version of the myths and their God myths.

 

[Skywalker]

Some of them are, some of them aren't.

The Old Testament talks about the resurrection of the Messiah. Psalm 16:10, Psalm 22, Isaiah 53:10–11, Daniel 12:2–3.

 

[joelr]

Those passages being written during Persian occupation doesn't mean they have Persian origins. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

They did not exist in Judaism until they were exposed to the Persian religion for several hundred years.
This is clear evidence of religious syncretism.
The Israelites may have came up with the myths on their own.......it's incredibly unlikley.
If some Germanic barbarians were invaded by Hindu and the barbarians started meditating, worshiping a god just like Krishna and trying to activate the 7 chakras it's a good bet they were influenced by the Hindu.

scholarship believes this is the source of the OT material from 5BC. The coincidence are too many to name.

 

[Skywalker]

They did not exist in Judaism until they were exposed to the Persian religion for several hundred years.
This is clear evidence of religious syncretism.
The Israelites may have came up with the myths on their own.......it's incredibly unlikley.
If some Germanic barbarians were invaded by Hindu and the barbarians started meditating, worshiping a god just like Krishna and trying to activate the 7 chakras it's a good bet they were influenced by the Hindu.

scholarship believes this is the source of the OT material from 5BC. The coincidence are too many to name.

The second coming of Jesus and the teachings of Zoroastrianism arent the same teachings. Zoroastrianism is a religion not a relationship with God.

 

[joelr]

No. What I said was:

​

In the future, please whine less, try to understand what you're reading, and avoid distorting my comments.

Right, he's a minority opinion on MYTHICISM. On almost ALL OTHER TOPICS he just cites what's consensus in the field. The topic we were on was NOT MYTHICSM so your comment was pointless. Even though he backs up his view on mythicism and has been debating it with other scholars for years. I'm not really "whining" and I'm not trying to use lowbrow put-downs like "groupie". But by all means continue to try to sound clever. It's bound to work eventually.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Old Testament talks about the resurrection of the Messiah. Psalm 16:10, Psalm 22, Isaiah 53:10–11, Daniel 12:2–3.

These passages are not about the messiah.

 

[Skywalker]

They were originally given only to the Jews. Then after Jesus gave up his life, Christians are still supposed to follow a righteous course set by God. Yes, the Law brought out that no matter how hard we try we are not perfect. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for those with faith. And who understand what it means to follow scriptural guidelines.

The Ten Commandments were given to the Jews to prepare them for the Messiah.

 

[Skywalker]

These passages are not about the messiah.

What about the Tanakh's verses about the Messiah reappearing in victory?

 

[joelr]

The second coming of Jesus and the teachings of Zoroastrianism arent the same teachings. Zoroastrianism is a religion not a relationship with God.

You haven't read on single thing on the Persian religion have you? It's just like your religion give or take. Except older.


"Let me share with you how practical we can be. We regard Ahura Mazda, the supreme deity, the Wise One, as the source of knowledge and wisdom. How does one perceive knowledge and wisdom? By using our individual mind, which is linked to the cosmic mind. When knowledge and the mind come together, or interact with each other, then we develop the application of that knowledge. The application of that knowledge is what we see as order at a physical level, truth at a psychological level, and righteousness at a spiritual level. So we have wisdom, the mind, and truth coming together, and that then gives one an internal strength, or sovereignty. That sovereignty, we’re told, must be balanced with devotion and piety. When devotion and piety come together with sovereignty we tend to do something well, to the best of our ability. If we do something to the best of our ability, the chances are that it will be remembered. There’s a sense of immortality, of eternalness to that – and that immortality or eternalness is linked to happiness."


"Because eventually the forces of good will triumph over the forces of evil, and I would have to explain the whole creation story to explain how that unfolds. For the moment what I’d like to share with you is that everything negative which happens to us – in terms of misery, pain, destruction, death – are all seen as the temporary triumphs of evil. Death is a temporary triumph of evil, where evil succeeds in killing the physical body, but the soul and spirit continue their journey until the end of time, when there will be the resurrection and the last judgement."

"We believe that Zoroastrianism greatly influenced Judaism and Christianity, and then trickled through to Islam. This ‘osmosis’ particularly seems to have happened with the afterlife doctrine. The concepts of heaven and hell, individual judgement, resurrection of the body, the last judgement, the coming of the Messiah – these are mainstream Zoroastrian theological ideas which entered post-exilic Judaism around the fourth century bce. From my understanding of Judaism, it did not originally have a defined ideology as far as its eschatology was concerned."

The Zoroastrian Flame | Beshara Magazine

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Ten Commandments were given to the Jews to prepare them for the Messiah.

1. It's actually 613 commandments.

2. It's not to prepare us for the Messiah. It's for many reasons, including to simply set us apart for the other nations. No where in the Tanakh (OT) does it say the commandments are given to prepare us for the Messiah. I suggest you meditate on Psalm 19:

ח תּוֹרַת יְהוָה תְּמִימָה, מְשִׁיבַת נָפֶשׁ; עֵדוּת יְהוָה נֶאֱמָנָה, מַחְכִּימַת פֶּתִי. 8 The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
ט פִּקּוּדֵי יְהוָה יְשָׁרִים, מְשַׂמְּחֵי-לֵב; מִצְוַת יְהוָה בָּרָה, מְאִירַת עֵינָיִם. 9 The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
י יִרְאַת יְהוָה, טְהוֹרָה--עוֹמֶדֶת לָעַד: מִשְׁפְּטֵי-יְהוָה אֱמֶת; צָדְקוּ יַחְדָּו. 10 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever; the ordinances of the LORD are true, they are righteous altogether;
יא הַנֶּחֱמָדִים--מִזָּהָב, וּמִפַּז רָב; וּמְתוּקִים מִדְּבַשׁ, וְנֹפֶת צוּפִים. 11 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

 

[Skywalker]

You haven't read on single thing on the Persian religion have you? It's just like your religion give or take. Except older.


"Let me share with you how practical we can be. We regard Ahura Mazda, the supreme deity, the Wise One, as the source of knowledge and wisdom. How does one perceive knowledge and wisdom? By using our individual mind, which is linked to the cosmic mind. When knowledge and the mind come together, or interact with each other, then we develop the application of that knowledge. The application of that knowledge is what we see as order at a physical level, truth at a psychological level, and righteousness at a spiritual level. So we have wisdom, the mind, and truth coming together, and that then gives one an internal strength, or sovereignty. That sovereignty, we’re told, must be balanced with devotion and piety. When devotion and piety come together with sovereignty we tend to do something well, to the best of our ability. If we do something to the best of our ability, the chances are that it will be remembered. There’s a sense of immortality, of eternalness to that – and that immortality or eternalness is linked to happiness."


"Because eventually the forces of good will triumph over the forces of evil, and I would have to explain the whole creation story to explain how that unfolds. For the moment what I’d like to share with you is that everything negative which happens to us – in terms of misery, pain, destruction, death – are all seen as the temporary triumphs of evil. Death is a temporary triumph of evil, where evil succeeds in killing the physical body, but the soul and spirit continue their journey until the end of time, when there will be the resurrection and the last judgement."

The Zoroastrian Flame | Beshara Magazine

The dates of the writings of Zoraster is why the Bible wasn't influenced by them. It makes sense that Zoraster copied the Bible. People didn't recant their faith in Jesus when they were being persecuted and they had no reason to make up stories about Jesus. The same isnt true of Zoraster. Are the ideas of Jesus and Christianity borrowed from Mithra and Zoroastrianism? | GotQuestions.org


"Question: "Are the ideas of Jesus and Christianity borrowed from Mithra and Zoroastrianism?"

Answer: Did Judaism and Christianity borrow the Messiah, the resurrection, and final judgment from Zoroastrianism / Mithra? Many doctrines of the Christian faith have parallels in Zoroastrianism, e.g., the virgin birth, the son of God, and resurrection. Some scholars say that Zarathustra (a.k.a. Zoroaster) lived around 600–500 BC. If that is the case, David, Isaiah, and Jeremiah (all of whom mention the Messiah, the resurrection and the final judgment in their writings), lived and wrote before Zarathustra. Some scholars say that Zoroaster lived sometime between 1500 and 1200 BC. If that is the case, the case for Christianity borrowing from Zoroastrianism would be stronger, but the fact is we don’t know when Zarathustra lived (hence the disagreement among scholars), and so this argument is speculative at best. The Greek historian Herodotus (5th century BC) doesn’t mention Zoroaster in his treatise on the Medo-Persian religions, though Plato, who was born roughly around the time Herodotus died, does mention him in his Alcibiades (see Wikipedia’s entry on Zoroaster;Zoroaster - Wikipedia).

But establishing when Zarathustra lived is only the first step. Next, we have to establish what he actually taught (as opposed to what modern Zoroastrianism claims he taught). The only source for Zarathustra’s teachings is the Avesta, and the oldest copies we have of the Avesta date from the 13th century AD. The late date for this collection of writings lends no support whatsoever to the idea that Christians borrowed from Zoroastrianism (the oldest copies of the Jewish Scriptures that we have today date centuries before Christ, and the oldest complete manuscripts of the Christian Scriptures we have date from the 4th century AD).

This looks to be another case of skeptics citing a pre-Christian religion, assuming that the post-Christian form of the religion (which we know about) has remained faithful to the pre-Christian form of the religion (which we know nothing about) and speculating that the similarities between the religion and Christianity are due to Christianity borrowing from the religion in question. It’s a philosophical argument without solid evidence to back it up. Have we any good reason not to suppose that it was Zoroastrianism which borrowed from Christianity and not vice versa? We know that Zoroastrianism borrowed freely from the polytheistic faiths of the region in which it became popular. Mithra, for example, was a Persian god who found a prominent role in Zoroastrianism. Mithra’s Hindu counterpart is the god Mitra.

All philosophical arguments aside, we know that Jesus Christ was a real historical figure, that He fulfilled numerous specific prophecies written and preserved hundreds of years before His life, that He died on a cross, and that He was reported to have risen from the dead and interacted with men and women who were willing to suffer horribly and die for this testimony."

 

[Skywalker]

1. It's actually 613 commandments.

2. It's not to prepare us for the Messiah. It's for many reasons, including to simply set us apart for the other nations. No where in the Tanakh (OT) does it say the commandments are given to prepare us for the Messiah. I suggest you meditate on Psalm 19:

ח תּוֹרַת יְהוָה תְּמִימָה, מְשִׁיבַת נָפֶשׁ; עֵדוּת יְהוָה נֶאֱמָנָה, מַחְכִּימַת פֶּתִי. 8 The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
ט פִּקּוּדֵי יְהוָה יְשָׁרִים, מְשַׂמְּחֵי-לֵב; מִצְוַת יְהוָה בָּרָה, מְאִירַת עֵינָיִם. 9 The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
י יִרְאַת יְהוָה, טְהוֹרָה--עוֹמֶדֶת לָעַד: מִשְׁפְּטֵי-יְהוָה אֱמֶת; צָדְקוּ יַחְדָּו. 10 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever; the ordinances of the LORD are true, they are righteous altogether;
יא הַנֶּחֱמָדִים--מִזָּהָב, וּמִפַּז רָב; וּמְתוּקִים מִדְּבַשׁ, וְנֹפֶת צוּפִים. 11 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

Since nobody can keep the Ten Commandments, they were given as a mirror not as a code of perfection. We are to strive to keep the Ten Commandments, but nobody can. It pleases God when we strive for perfection even though we could never reach it.

 

[Skywalker]

What proves that God is not an imagination and Jesus was genuine (virgin birth and resurrection, of course, Lazarus and walking on water)?
You have to take that on faith, since there is no proof.

Bhagirath revived 60,000 of his uncles by bringing River Ganges from heaven to earth. And from heaven River Ganges fell into the coils of Shiva's matted hair, where it got lost and Shiva had to squeeze his hair to get Rive Ganges out. It is in Hindu scriptures. Would you believe that?
If you do not believe that, why would anyone believe in the fables of Bible?

Varanasi / Benares yesterday on the occasion of Diwali of Gods (Dev Diwali). dev diwali varanasi - Google Search

Jesus is God because the apostles had no reason to make up seeing him after he died, they didnt recant even in persecution, and multiple people dont hallucinate the same thing.