Did Christ really exist ?

[Heyo]

Gary Robert Habermas is an American New Testament scholar and Christian apologist who frequently writes and lectures on the resurrection of Jesus. He is a Distinguished Professor of Philosophy and Theology at Liberty University. Wikipedia

"Jürgen Habermas (UK: /ˈhɑːbərmæs/, US: /-mɑːs/;[4] German: [ˈjʏʁɡn̩ ˈhaːbɐmaːs];[5][6] born 18 June 1929) is a German philosopher and sociologist in the tradition of critical theory and pragmatism. His work addresses communicative rationality and the public sphere." - Jürgen Habermas - Wikipedia

 

[Skywalker]

Wrong.

Three kings didn't visit Horus when he was born. The Bible doesn't actually state the number of magi that came to visit Jesus when he was born. Horus didnt have 12 disciples. He wasn't betrayed by a friend.

 

[Heyo]

In all kindness, I have to wonder how you
process what you read, there is very little contact between what I say and your responses.

God reconciled the snake story into a true story?

What are you even talking about?

Isn't it clear by now that @Skywalker is a bot (or has serious mental difficulties)? No sane person can be that non sequitur.

 

[Skywalker]

In all kindness, I have to wonder how you
process what you read, there is very little contact between what I say and your responses.

God reconciled the snake story into a true story?

What are you even talking about?

Paul was healed by God. The miracles in the New Testament were done for the glory of God, not for the glory of people.

 

[blü 2]

The details about Jesus are different because different authors have different writing styles, but the essence is the same.

Mark's Jesus is an ordinary Jew, not descended from David, who becomes the son of God only when JtB washes away his sins; at which point the heavens open and God declares that Jesus is now [his] son, in the same manner that [he] had adopted David (Psalm 2:7, Acts 13:33).

The Jesus of Matthew and the Jesus of Luke are both born of a virgin who conceives by divine insemination. Angels foretell, untenable and incompatible genealogies to show Jesus as descended from David are provided, and other colorful fictions are provided like Matthew's 'taxation census' and 'Massacre of the Innocents' in order to move Jesus through various episodes that the authors regard as "messianic prophecy".

The Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John pre-exist in heaven with God, and regardless of Genesis, each of them creates the material universe, which is what the gnostic demiurge does because the gnostic god is absolutely pure spirit unsullied by materiality. They are both descended from David, so it appears they were born in the usual way to Jewish parents, but there are no details.

However, all five of them deny that they're God and never once claim to be God. The Trinity doctrine isn't devised until the 4th century CE.

 

[blü 2]

There was no real 'systematic' repression of texts in the ancient world, only local and ad hoc. Central powers had too little control of whatever 'system' existed to be able to coordinate and manage anything like that.

During the Diocletian Persecution the (Pagan) Romans destroyed Christian, Manichaean and other 'subversive' religious texts and burned people who refused to sacrifice to the Roman gods.

This was under an official edict from the Emperor, one who significantly increased the imperial bureaucracy, but it was hardly applied empire wide with any standardised degree of rigour. A few hundred martyrs were created, some properties confiscated and some texts burned, but it had minimal impact on the availability of Christian texts.

Communication was too slow, power too decentralised, enforcement mechanisms too weak and cultural differences so great that an edict was more of a 'the Emperor likes this' advisory than a modern, standardised law enforced by the police and courts. Many edicts were completely ignored in many parts of the Empire.

The Pope had even less ability to enforce anything much, and the idea that there was a unified 'Church' in anything other than theory is a mistake.

People look at edicts or decrees and think that they had far more influence than they actually did. Also hagiographies tended to overstate persecutory zeal as a common trope.

Gnostic texts disappeared for the same reason most Christian, Pagan or any other texts have disappeared: no one was interested in spending the vast amounts of effort and money necessary to copy them endlessly for 2000 years.

I don't think our views are identical, but they're not that far apart.

 

[Skywalker]

Mark's Jesus is an ordinary Jew, not descended from David, who becomes the son of God only when JtB washes away his sins; at which point the heavens open and God declares that Jesus is now [his] son, in the same manner that [he] had adopted David (Psalm 2:7, Acts 13:33).

The Jesus of Matthew and the Jesus of Luke are both born of a virgin who conceives by divine insemination. Angels foretell, untenable and incompatible genealogies to show Jesus as descended from David are provided, and other colorful fictions are provided like Matthew's 'taxation census' and 'Massacre of the Innocents' in order to move Jesus through various episodes that the authors regard as "messianic prophecy".

The Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John pre-exist in heaven with God, and regardless of Genesis, each of them creates the material universe, which is what the gnostic demiurge does because the gnostic god is absolutely pure spirit unsullied by materiality. They are both descended from David, so it appears they were born in the usual way to Jewish parents, but there are no details.

However, all five of them deny that they're God and never once claim to be God. The Trinity doctrine isn't devised until the 4th century CE.

The same language is used about Jesus that is used about Yahweh in the Old Testament. Did Jesus Claim to Be God When He Ascribed to Himself Divine Titles and Attributes?

Yahweh

"loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." Deuteronomy 30:20

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand." Deuteronomy 32:39

Into Your hand I commit my spirit; You have ransomed me, O LORD, God of truth." Psalm 31:5 NASB

"Then they said to Jeremiah, ‘May the LORD be a true and faithful witness against us if we do not act according to all the word with which the LORD your God sends you to us." Jeremiah 42:5

Jesus

"Jesus said to her, ‘I am THE resurrection and THE life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?’ She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.’" John 11:25-27

"Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and THE truth, and THE life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’" John 14:6; cf. Colossians 3:3-4

"And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.’" Revelation 3:14

 

[blü 2]

The same language is used about Jesus that is used about Yahweh in the Old Testament. Did Jesus Claim to Be God When He Ascribed to Himself Divine Titles and Attributes?

As I said, all five versions of Jesus (those of Paul and the respective authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John) deny that they're God and never once claim to be God.

(I can't read the rest of your post. Likely you have a format error ─ start by checking that all [/quote] commands have exactly that form, then the format of and square brackets around identifiers.)

 

[Skywalker]

As I said, all five versions of Jesus (those of Paul and the respective authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John) deny that they're God and never once claim to be God.

(I can't read the rest of your post. Likely you have a format error ─ start by checking that all

commands have exactly that form, then the format of and square brackets around identifiers.)[/QUOTE]
Click on click to expand.

Where do the four gospels have Jesus denying that He is God?

 

[Skywalker]

As I said, all five versions of Jesus (those of Paul and the respective authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John) deny that they're God and never once claim to be God.

(I can't read the rest of your post. Likely you have a format error ─ start by checking that all

commands have exactly that form, then the format of and square brackets around identifiers.)[/QUOTE]

What post has format error with quotes?

 

[blü 2]

Where do the four gospels have Jesus denying that He is God?

Paul:

I Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

Mark:

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [...]
32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;​

Matthew:

Matthew 20:23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”
​

Luke:

Luke 18: And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”
​

John:

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
​

 

[Skywalker]

Paul:

I Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

Mark:

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [...]
32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;​

Matthew:

Matthew 20:23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”
​

Luke:

Luke 18: And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”
​

John:

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
​

The Bible verse about God the Father doesn't contradict that Jesus is part of the Trinity. Jesus talking about God the Father doesn't mean He isn't God the Son.

 

[Skywalker]

Paul:

I Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

Mark:

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [...]
32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;​

Matthew:

Matthew 20:23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”
​

Luke:

Luke 18: And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”
​

John:

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
​

Jesus was trying to influence the person to recognize Christ's divinity. Jesus was saying the God the Father sent him. which doesnt deny the Trinity. The Father being greater than Jesus is a reference to office not essence. The only true God is a reference to seeking and having a relationship with God and not following religious rituals. John 20:17 is similar to Jesus praying not my will by thine be done. That affirms, not denies, the Trinity.

 

[1213]

... the fictional and incompatible genealogies which the authors of Matthew and of Luke reproduce. ...

Why do you think they are fictional and not compatible? I think they can be compatible, but neither of them is not the whole story.

 

[blü 2]

The Bible verse about God the Father doesn't contradict that Jesus is part of the Trinity. Jesus talking about God the Father doesn't mean He isn't God the Son.

Jesus is a circumcised Jew and we're talking about the single God of the Jews, the God of the covenant, not the God of the Christians. The Christians don't invent the Trinity doctrine till the 4th century CE.

So don't expect Jesus in the NT to discuss the Trinity. The idea of a triune god does not exist in the first century CE and accordingly is not found in the NT.

 

[Skywalker]

Jesus is a circumcised Jew and we're talking about the single God of the Jews, the God of the covenant, not the God of the Christians. The Christians don't invent the Trinity doctrine till the 4th century CE.

So don't expect Jesus in the NT to discuss the Trinity. The idea of a triune god does not exist in the first century CE and accordingly is not found in the NT.

Some Christians dont believe in the Trinity.

 

[blü 2]

Why do you think they are fictional and not compatible? I think they can be compatible, but neither of them is not the whole story.

First, if they're genealogies of Joseph then they're irrelevant since in Matthew and Luke, Joseph is expressly NOT Jesus' father. Genealogies are for the father. There's nothing to suggest either is for Mary. There's nothing to suggest they're historical instead of clumsy attempts to have the Christian messiah descended from David. Into the bargain, as two genealogies of the same person, they're entirely incompatible.

Note too that Mark's Jesus, unlike the Jesuses of Paul, Matthew, Luke and John, is not descended from David and says you don't have to be.

 

[blü 2]

Some Christians dont believe in the Trinity.

Yes, that's the smart call ─ the Trinity doctrine is called, by the churches themselves, a "mystery in the strict sense", which means it "cannot be known by unaided reason apart from revelation nor cogently demonstrated by reason once it has been revealed" ─ their words, not mine ─ ie is incoherent.

 

[Audie]

Paul was healed by God. The miracles in the New Testament were done for the glory of God, not for the glory of people.

In kindness and regret, I am putting you on ig.

 

[Skywalker]

Yes, that's the smart call ─ the Trinity doctrine is called, by the churches themselves, a "mystery in the strict sense", which means it "cannot be known by unaided reason apart from revelation nor cogently demonstrated by reason once it has been revealed" ─ their words, not mine ─ ie is incoherent.

Jesus saying the Father is greater than I would be like me saying that the president of the United States is greater than me. He's greater in military capability but he's no more of a man than me.