Did Christ really exist ?

[Skywalker]

Uh...forget the Illuminati, they literally LIED TO YOU and said something meant "I serve Yahweh" and it basically says "lives in this house"???
I don't "believe in" letters of Paul, scholarship recognized that some are authentic and some are later additions by the church.
Acts has been shown to be a fiction using the Oddessy and other fiction as it's guide. It's a "travel narrative" a common form of fiction. Shipwrecked, percieved as Gods, there are like 50 characteristics that fit the genre.
There are 7 authentic letters. All Paul knows is a vision of a risen Jesus and information he got from some scripture.

"Thirteen of the twenty-seven books in the New Testament have traditionally been attributed to Paul.[13] Seven of the Pauline epistles are undisputed by scholars as being authentic, with varying degrees of argument about the remainder. Pauline authorship of the Epistle to the Hebrews is not asserted in the Epistle itself and was already doubted in the 2nd and 3rd centuries.[note 2] It was almost unquestioningly accepted from the 5th to the 16th centuries that Paul was the author of Hebrews,[15] but that view is now almost universally rejected by scholars.[15][16] The other six are believed by some scholars to have come from followers writing in his name, using material from Paul's surviving letters and letters written by him that no longer survive.[8][7][note 3] Other scholars argue that the idea of a pseudonymous author for the disputed epistles raises many problems."

I dont think the Illuminati conspiracy theories are important to focus on. We should just focus on the Word of God, not on evil.

Scholars do believe in the Pauline letters. Pauline epistles - Wikipedia

Seven letters (with consensus dates)[8] considered genuine by most scholars:

• First Thessalonians (c. 50 AD)
• Galatians (c. 53)
• First Corinthians (c. 53–54)
• Philippians (c. 55)
• Philemon (c. 55)
• Second Corinthians (c. 55–56)
• Romans (c. 57)

The letters on which scholars are about evenly divided:[2]

• Colossians (c. 62)
• Second Thessalonians (c. 49–51)

Finally, Epistle to the Hebrews, though anonymous and not really in the form of a letter, has long been included among Paul's collected letters. Although some churches ascribe to Hebrews to Paul,[9] neither most of Christianity nor modern scholarship do so.[2][10]

Also, who wrote the book of Hebrews is a minor theological issue. It has nothing to do with the existence of Christ.

 

[YoursTrue]

No the PhD historicity scholars all agree on Paul. Actually most all Christian scholars also agree with that. The writing styles, theology, use of words, everything is wrong in the later letters. They also contradict Pauls earlier theology. They were church additions, they wanted Paul to have said this or that so they made stuff up. Like the apologetics site you sourced. They wanted the coin to say Yahweh so they lied. Same thing.

Paul was a Jew and he converted to a different sect of Judaism. People convert to religions every day. As far as truth Paul knew nothing except a "vision" and scripture.

He sure did know scripture. He also knew the scriptures leading to the Christ.

 

[joelr]

Now that I'm thinking about it, do geologists figure how, for instance, the Grand Canyon came about? I realize that planets and heavenly bodies like the sun and moon have different topography, but the Bible says that God separated the waters. I realize that some conjecture that "life" somehow can be on other planets, areas of the universe, but it's all playtools to think that. Because -- there is absolutely no proof.
Genesis 1 says that God made the earth habitable.

Uh, the Colorado river is still inside the Grand Canyon. We see water erode rocks all over the Earth.
We have found organic molecules on asteroids from space. Life may be in many places across the universe.
What Genesis 1 says is just stuff a bronze age civilization made up. There is zero evidence their God or any other God is real.

Oh, ok, I know geologists have their answers. But as I said, different planets, moons, stars, have different landscapes. And while sometimes a scientist may say that there is water in them there planets, no telescope sees life on them there planets. Lifeless and void. Again -- the odds are: zero to zero that life just came about by itself. As far as the Flood, however, I believe Noah had advance notice, built an ark, told others about why he was building it, and a gigantic flood happened. My hope is that I live to hear an eyewitness account from Noah and his family.

Life came about by self replicating molecules. Our studies on the origins of life reveal many new discoveries every year.
This year a paper came out showing we found self-replicating molecules that also had a type of metabolism.

"In a chance discovery, researchers have for the first time observed the emergence of something akin to metabolism in molecules that also self-replicate.1 The replicator molecules catalyse a reaction that produces compounds that help to make the replicator’s own building blocks. It might be one of the most lifelike chemical systems ever created, combining two of life’s three essential features – replication, metabolism and compartmentalisation."
Self-replicating molecules show signs of metabolism for the first time


It is only a matter of time before we understand the process of organic molecules beginning to self replicate and eventually ending up at a basic RNA.
If you are choosing to believe a myth, taken from older myths, written in a style that all other myths (that are not true) are written in, that feature improbable events and point to a really terrible version of a God then have at it.

 

[YoursTrue]

No the PhD historicity scholars all agree on Paul. Actually most all Christian scholars also agree with that. The writing styles, theology, use of words, everything is wrong in the later letters. They also contradict Pauls earlier theology. They were church additions, they wanted Paul to have said this or that so they made stuff up. Like the apologetics site you sourced. They wanted the coin to say Yahweh so they lied. Same thing.

Paul was a Jew and he converted to a different sect of Judaism. People convert to religions every day. As far as truth Paul knew nothing except a "vision" and scripture.

Look, people believe many things, as you say. And some call themselves Christian and saved even if they practice homosexuality. So we all have to decide. I for one, am glad that Paul had that vision. Yes, I believe God sent it to him. It wasn't easy for him after he received that vision. Nevertheless, Christ existed and was killed. Paul was obviously not a believer in Jesus as the Messiah when the disciples saw him resurrected before he went to heaven.

 

[YoursTrue]

Uh, the Colorado river is still inside the Grand Canyon. We see water erode rocks all over the Earth.
We have found organic molecules on asteroids from space. Life may be in many places across the universe.
What Genesis 1 says is just stuff a bronze age civilization made up. There is zero evidence their God or any other God is real.




Life came about by self replicating molecules. Our studies on the origins of life reveal many new discoveries every year.
This year a paper came out showing we found self-replicating molecules that also had a type of metabolism.

"In a chance discovery, researchers have for the first time observed the emergence of something akin to metabolism in molecules that also self-replicate.1 The replicator molecules catalyse a reaction that produces compounds that help to make the replicator’s own building blocks. It might be one of the most lifelike chemical systems ever created, combining two of life’s three essential features – replication, metabolism and compartmentalisation."
Self-replicating molecules show signs of metabolism for the first time


It is only a matter of time before we understand the process of organic molecules beginning to self replicate and eventually ending up at a basic RNA.
If you are choosing to believe a myth, taken from older myths, written in a style that all other myths (that are not true) are written in, that feature improbable events and point to a really terrible version of a God then have at it.

OK, whatever... about life elsewhere. Yes, there are angels, demons, and God. They don't live on planets. They don't need food. Etc. They don't reproduce. Etc. and etc.

 

[Skywalker]

No the PhD historicity scholars all agree on Paul. Actually most all Christian scholars also agree with that. The writing styles, theology, use of words, everything is wrong in the later letters. They also contradict Pauls earlier theology. They were church additions, they wanted Paul to have said this or that so they made stuff up. Like the apologetics site you sourced. They wanted the coin to say Yahweh so they lied. Same thing.

Paul was a Jew and he converted to a different sect of Judaism. People convert to religions every day. As far as truth Paul knew nothing except a "vision" and scripture.

What about the writing styles and theology in Paul's letters are wrong? I agree with you about corruption in the church. The pastors and the priests are human beings who make mistakes like everyone else. Regarding what you said about church additions, the Bible never mentions Paul being involved in the corrupted behavior of church leaders.

I think the apostles practiced similar Christianity similar to Messianic Jews, but Paul believed in the Old Testament concept of the Messiah as a suffering servant who died for the sins of the world, not in the concept of the Messiah as a political figure that existed among the Jews of Jesus's time who rejected Jesus, and rabbinic Judaism. What difference does it make if Paul followed Jewish law in terms of his teachings being true? He taught the message of Jesus, so from a Christian standpoint, whether someone follows the Old Covenant alongside the New Covenant doesn't make a difference. I believe Paul's vision of Jesus was credible because he had no signs of mental illness and he had nothing to gain from following Jesus. He was persecuted and jailed and he never talked about anything that glorified his past-he only glorified Jesus.

 

[Skywalker]

So they argue. Paul knew more than a vision, since he realized what he was doing was wrong. His reasoning was turned around.

Paul didn't gain anything by changing his actions. He was jailed and persecuted. He never talked about his past life in a way that glorified it, he said that he used to be a mess, and he only glorified God.

 

[YoursTrue]

Uh, the Colorado river is still inside the Grand Canyon. We see water erode rocks all over the Earth.
We have found organic molecules on asteroids from space. Life may be in many places across the universe.
What Genesis 1 says is just stuff a bronze age civilization made up. There is zero evidence their God or any other God is real.




Life came about by self replicating molecules. Our studies on the origins of life reveal many new discoveries every year.
This year a paper came out showing we found self-replicating molecules that also had a type of metabolism.

"In a chance discovery, researchers have for the first time observed the emergence of something akin to metabolism in molecules that also self-replicate.1 The replicator molecules catalyse a reaction that produces compounds that help to make the replicator’s own building blocks. It might be one of the most lifelike chemical systems ever created, combining two of life’s three essential features – replication, metabolism and compartmentalisation."
Self-replicating molecules show signs of metabolism for the first time


It is only a matter of time before we understand the process of organic molecules beginning to self replicate and eventually ending up at a basic RNA.
If you are choosing to believe a myth, taken from older myths, written in a style that all other myths (that are not true) are written in, that feature improbable events and point to a really terrible version of a God then have at it.

Self-replicating. So? There are self-replicating molecules. Gotta have those molecules started somehow. Yeah, ending up at a basic RNA. (sarcasm, sorry)

 

[YoursTrue]

Paul didn't gain anything by changing his actions. He was jailed and persecuted. He never talked about his past life in a way that glorified it, he said that he used to be a mess, and he only glorified God.

Thanks for that.

 

[YoursTrue]

Uh, the Colorado river is still inside the Grand Canyon. We see water erode rocks all over the Earth.
We have found organic molecules on asteroids from space. Life may be in many places across the universe.
What Genesis 1 says is just stuff a bronze age civilization made up. There is zero evidence their God or any other God is real.




Life came about by self replicating molecules. Our studies on the origins of life reveal many new discoveries every year.
This year a paper came out showing we found self-replicating molecules that also had a type of metabolism.

"In a chance discovery, researchers have for the first time observed the emergence of something akin to metabolism in molecules that also self-replicate.1 The replicator molecules catalyse a reaction that produces compounds that help to make the replicator’s own building blocks. It might be one of the most lifelike chemical systems ever created, combining two of life’s three essential features – replication, metabolism and compartmentalisation."
Self-replicating molecules show signs of metabolism for the first time


It is only a matter of time before we understand the process of organic molecules beginning to self replicate and eventually ending up at a basic RNA.
If you are choosing to believe a myth, taken from older myths, written in a style that all other myths (that are not true) are written in, that feature improbable events and point to a really terrible version of a God then have at it.

Please note I didn't say God made the Grand Canyon. Obviously and evidently the WATER did. Nice, isn't it, that we have such wonderful things to look at, and consider?

 

[Skywalker]

Look, people believe many things, as you say. And some call themselves Christian and saved even if they practice homosexuality. So we all have to decide. I for one, am glad that Paul had that vision. Yes, I believe God sent it to him. It wasn't easy for him after he received that vision. Nevertheless, Christ existed and was killed. Paul was obviously not a believer in Jesus as the Messiah when the disciples saw him resurrected before he went to heaven.

Paul changed his beliefs too. He went from persecuting Christians because of his beliefs about Jewish law, to speaking out against the practices of the Judaizers. Paul was neutral on the issue of practicing Christianity like the Messianic Jews do. He didnt require Christians to follow Jewish practices nor was he against the practices of the Jewish Christians. Paul the Apostle and Jewish Christianity - Wikipedia

 

[Skywalker]

Self-replicating. So? There are self-replicating molecules. Gotta have those molecules started somehow. Yeah, ending up at a basic RNA. (sarcasm, sorry)

Even when bacteria molecules develop on their own, like on meat, they dont become anything but bacteria.

 

[joelr]

The Caananites practiced child sacrifice. Secular history and archaeology agrees with the Bible. Moloch - Wikipedia

Did The Canaanites Really Sacrifice Their Children?

https://biblereadingarcheology.com/2016/05/13/did-the-canaanites-sacrifice-their-children/
What is actually said about Canaanite child sacrifice:

"It is considered virtually impossible to reconstruct a clear picture of Canaanite religious practices. Although child sacrifice was known to surrounding peoples, there is no reference to it in ancient Phoenician or Classical texts. The biblical representation of Canaanite religion is always negative.[26]

Canaanite religious practice had a high regard for the duty of children to care for their parents, with sons being held responsible for burying them, and arranging for the maintenance of their tombs.[27]"

Again, you source a biblical archaeology site that says "The answer to this charge is obvious to Bible students."?? But the Bible isn't a historical book? It's a book of laws, wisdom and made-up supernatural entities? How hard is it to actually look into a field for real???
Read a paper?:

Canaanite Religion this is on Canaanite religion.

Then there is Yahweh who tells his people to defeat a city and take women and children for themselves a "plunder of war".
And in 6 other cities to kill all living things because they are all evil? Yahweh was no different than any other God back then, killing anyone not Hebrew.

The idea of the flood existing in other cultures could also support that it actually happened and different people having different beliefs about it shows that the details changed over time.

But science has ruled it out.
Comparative mythology shows common myths do not point to historical events at all.
If it happened then the older accounts - Sumerian - would be the most accurate. Multiple Gods, names of Gods and people all different, different religion.
You have a computer, a car, technology, airplanes, medical tech, science has proven to be the most effective way to understand the world. A flood never happened.

 

[joelr]

I dont think the Illuminati conspiracy theories are important to focus on. We should just focus on the Word of God, not on evil.

You used the source. I had to point out how absurd your source was using this example. Your source lied to you. The coin did not say Yahweh. It said "house". This is not the word of god but clear lies. So if as you say we should focus on the word of God, you must have banished that site from your contact list?
You have not demonstrated there is any God words at all? Just stories made by people.

Scholars do believe in the Pauline letters. Pauline epistles - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_epistles#Authenticity

Yes like it says, there are 7 authentic letters.

Also, who wrote the book of Hebrews is a minor theological issue. It has nothing to do with the existence of Christ.

Like I pointed out, Christ is a dying/rising savior God myth, the Jewish version.

 

[joelr]

He sure did know scripture. He also knew the scriptures leading to the Christ.

Yes this myth was going around at the time.

 

[Skywalker]

Everything can be accounted for when one realizes the creation myths are just that. The Epic of Gilamesh is far older but Noah's Ark clearly copies ideas from it. But geology has ruled out a world flood so even if a God just made the water disappear it still wouldn't work. Noah's Ark was written around 1000 BC. It seems to be trying to co-opt the older versions? Yet the older versions had no concept of Yahweh, Israel or anything Jewish?
Also the myth that the Earth went "evil" and the God had to kill all life, but performed animal pairing magic for these people, it's just such an obvious made-up story? And there was literally one really good family and everyone else was evil? All the thousands of other mothers and babies, evil. Farmers, evil. The entire human and animal population on Earth, just one family was good. And one pair of animals. Even as a movie it was ridiculous.

Just because the Epic of Gilgamesh was written older than Noah's ark, that doesn't mean that its true. Correlation isn't causation. Geology hasn't ruled out a world flood. The Grand Canyon supports that there was a world flood. Flood Geology and the Grand Canyon: What Does the Evidence Really Say? - Articles

 

[joelr]

Look, people believe many things, as you say. And some call themselves Christian and saved even if they practice homosexuality. So we all have to decide. I for one, am glad that Paul had that vision. Yes, I believe God sent it to him. It wasn't easy for him after he received that vision. Nevertheless, Christ existed and was killed. Paul was obviously not a believer in Jesus as the Messiah when the disciples saw him resurrected before he went to heaven.

People believe all sorts of fiction. When one takes an honest look at evidence it's clear that it's just not true. I do not have to decide. I believe what evidence shows. Emotional attachments will cause people to use all sorts of confirmation bias. You keep making statements but cannot back them up.

 

[Skywalker]

People believe all sorts of fiction. When one takes an honest look at evidence it's clear that it's just not true. I do not have to decide. I believe what evidence shows. Emotional attachments will cause people to use all sorts of confirmation bias. You keep making statements but cannot back them up.

There's no evidence confirmation bias or emotional attachments played any role in the conversion of Paul.

 

[joelr]

OK, whatever... about life elsewhere. Yes, there are angels, demons, and God. They don't live on planets. They don't need food. Etc. They don't reproduce. Etc. and etc.

There are angels, demons and God in fiction. There are also Hobbits and Sauron and many Gods and demigods.
Evidence shows they are all stories.

 

[Skywalker]

You used the source. I had to point out how absurd your source was using this example. Your source lied to you. The coin did not say Yahweh. It said "house". This is not the word of god but clear lies. So if as you say we should focus on the word of God, you must have banished that site from your contact list?
You have not demonstrated there is any God words at all? Just stories made by people.


Yes like it says, there are 7 authentic letters.



Like I pointed out, Christ is a dying/rising savior God myth, the Jewish version.

Just because someone is a pastor that doesn't mean I believe everything they say. The Bible says to search the Scriptures. Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true.

None of the pagan gods died to pay the price of the sins of the world so that they could be forgiven. Christ has nothing to do with pagan mythology.