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Did Christianity Start with Jesus?

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
@ChristineM Another paradigmatic example: the synoptic gospels record a scene of his contemporaries criticizing Jesus, because his disciples did not fast when followers of John the Baptist and Pharisees were fasting, and he responded by asking a rhetorical question: 'Can the wedding guests fast as long as the bridegroom is with them?' (Mark 2. 1 8-22 & parr.), which basically sums up how Jesus viewed the world - as one big joyful wedding feast with himself as the Bridegroom in what would become a restored 'bride' (Israel) through the new kingdom of God that he was presaging and implementing, through a foreshadow, in his own manner of life and in that of his community of disciples.

So the 'differences' between John and Jesus are arguably starker than their (otherwise very close) affinities.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I am afraid this doesn't really 'work' Christine, insofar as the available textual evidence and scholarship is concerned.

According to most critical scholars, Jesus did begin as a disciple of John the Baptist and the Gospel of John is the most explicit in affirming that the earliest followers of Jesus had originally been 'Baptists' (in the Second Temple Jewish context of course, not the modern Protestant church!).

Undoubtedly, therefore, the 'Jesus movement' originated as one such splinter group from this preceding Johannine sect and you're quite right in saying that the Baptist is often unfairly relegated to a subsidiary role (as the 'forerunner' to his far more famous protege), whereas he was the motive force in pioneering some rather innovative practices that ultimately distinguished the early Christians from other Jewish sectarians.

However Jesus, in point-of-fact, actually repudiated much of the lifestyle choices and theology of his old master John. He sought to define himself, in a number of ways, as a very different 'character' to the former.

As the historical Jesus scholar E.P. Sanders explained in his much-acclaimed and now standard study, The Historical Figure of Jesus:


We must note one of the most interesting aspects of Jesus' ministry: he called 'sinners', and apparently he associated with them and befriended them while they were still sinners. In Matthew 1 I . 1 8f. , quoted just above, Jesus' critics accused him of this behaviour.

Jesus' didn't shun the company of even the worst elements of society. On the contrary, he courted it. Jesus was not given to censure but to encouragement; he was not judgemental but compassionate and lenient; he was not puritanical but joyous and celebratory...

Jesus was conscious of his differences from John, and he commented on them more than once. The prostitutes repented when John preached - not when Jesus preached. John was ascetic; Jesus ate and drank. And Jesus was a friend of tax collectors and sinners - not of former tax collectors and sinners, which is what Zacchaeus was after he met Jesus, but of tax collectors and sinners. Jesus, I think, was a good deal more radical than John.

Jesus thought that John's call to repent should have been effective, but in fact it was only partially successful. His own style was in any case different; he did not repeat the Baptist's tactics. On the contrary, he ate and drank with the wicked and told them that God especially loved them, and that the kingdom was at hand. Did he hope that they would change their ways? Probably he did. But 'change now or be destroyed' was not his message, it was John's. Jesus' was, 'God loves you'.

Jesus told the tax collectors that God loved them, and he told other people that the tax collectors would enter the kingdom of God before righteous people did.


(p.233)

Jesus certainly seems to have been eschatological in his outlook - which isn't surprising, given that he was at first a disciple of the explicitly apocalyptic figure of John the Baptist, who railed against alleged abuses of power by the Herodian Tetrarchs in Galilee and the Jerusalem priestly establishment, and would appear to have instituted his rite of water baptism (which Jesus affirmed and continued) as a rival to the rituals of the Temple cult.

Yet Jesus, whilst calling for or prophesying the Second Temple's destruction, appears - if we can judge by the practices of his first followers - to have been somewhat more even-handed and even a bit more positive in his appraisal of the Temple cult than John, although this is obviously contested amongst scholars.

But he was definitely, at the same time, a much more scandalous person than John.

Because unlike his mentor John - who espoused an austere, hermit-style desert lifestyle defined by asceticism in places siphoned off from mainstream society, not unlike the Essenes - Jesus was adamantly not asceticly-minded. Quite the contrary, he was viewed as a shameless hedonist in his dietary and table-fellowship habits, with his only 'ascetic' quality being a celibate mode of life that he didn't impose on his followers (most of whom, including the Twelve Apostles, were married and thus sexually active men who took their wives with them while spreading the gospel).

As Jesus himself stated in response to his Pharisaic and priestly critics:


John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon'; the
Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a glutton and
a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!
' (Matt. 11.1, 8f. / Luke
7.33, 7.33
)​

The bible NT was compiled 350 years after JCs death from several different sources and much of pre biblical scripture was thrown out. Of those that remain the difference books often dont coincide. Original copies of that book do not exist, the oldest full copy is the Vulgate which was written some 80 years after the original book.
Also there are now several hundred different versions, none of which completely agree.

Although this is not an argument for JC life it is a caution about using the bible to describe his life or what he said

There is no contemporary evidence of his life. Only supposition. My idea is based on study of roman attitudes at that time along with theories of my history professor at uni.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
The bible NT was compiled 350 years after JCs death from several different sources and much of pre biblical scripture was thrown out.

The canonical gospels are all first century documents (themselves an amalgam of prior written and oral traditions, likely a Q logia source underlying the shared homilectical material in M/L dating from the 30s/40s and a signs gospel/passion narrative from the 50s CE behind the canon Gospel of John), whilst Paul's authentic letters date from the 50s CE.

As such, we can meaningfully use these sources to reconstruct a plausible outline of the historical Christ - even though this will always be a rudimentary, contested and unsatisfactory portrayel.

Paul tells us he received the tradition (paredōka = “I delivered”; parelabon = “I received”), of Christ’s death on a Roman cross and burial. He reiterates this in 1 Corinthians 2:2, Galatians 3:1, 2 Corinthians 13:4, and many more occasions. He didn't derive this from a "revelation" but from the same synoptic tradition we find in the gospels.

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 Paul tells us that he received the tradition that Jesus had a last supper with his disciples before dying, quotes his alleged words ("this is my body...blood...do this in memory of me") and then notes that he was betrayed by one of his disciples. Again, no personal revelation involved here - just a historical memory distributed in the early movement that formed part of the verbal tradition that was eventually written down in Mark's gospel. 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 Paul tells us that Jesus had a core of inner disciples called "the Twelve". Again, no revelation involved here - just an allusion to another verbal tradition. Romans 1:3 Paul tells us that in "his earthly life [Jesus] was a descendant of David". That is, he tells us about Jesus's flesh and blood ancestry (this could only have come from a family tradition i.e. "do you know, our family is supposedly descended from King David").

1 Thessalonians. 2:14–15 Paul tells us that Jewish leaders (the High Priests) participated in the killing of Jesus, again that's a reflection of the synoptic tradition of the trial before the Jewish elders. Paul tells the Corinthians that "the Lord [Jesus] commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel" (1 Corinthians ix. 14). This "command" appears in our synoptic tradition in the Matthaean commission to the twelve (Matthew x. 10), "the labourer deserves his food", and in the Lukan commission to the seventy (Luke x. 7).

As Bart Ehrman notes, "Paul's first letter (1 Thessalonians) is usually dated to 49 CE; his last (Romans?) to some twelve or thirteen years after that [...] In addition to data about Jesus’s life and death, Paul mentions on several occasions the teachings he delivered. Where did Paul get all this received tradition, from whom, and most important, when? Paul himself gives us some hints. He tells us, he made a trip to Jerusalem, and there he spent fifteen days with Cephas [Peter] and James. Cephas [Peter] was one of Jesus’s twelve disciples, and James was his brother."

Thus, scholars can discern strong 'kernels' of early Palestinian Jesus tradition through multiple attestation, criterion of embarrassment and many other analytical tools - and Paul has been found to exhibit this.
 
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robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Some say Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi.

Did Jesus teach Christianity or did Jesus teach Judaism?

Did Jesus intend to found a new religion? Did not Jesus say that he was sent for the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

If however, you say Jesus did not come to found a new religion, then where did Christianity come from?
I think most Christians would agree that it started at the Old Testament.

There's even a Sumerian creation story for the Solar System that's pretty tight!
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
The canonical gospels are all first century documents (themselves an amalgam of prior written and oral traditions, likely a Q logia source underlying the shared homilectical material in M/L dating from the 30s/40s and a signs gospel/passion narrative from the 50s CE behind the canon Gospel of John), whilst Paul's authentic letters date from the 50s CE.

As such, we can meaningfully use these sources to reconstruct a plausible outline of the historical Christ - even though this will always be a rudimentary, contested and unsatisfactory portrayel.

Paul tells us he received the tradition (paredōka = “I delivered”; parelabon = “I received”), of Christ’s death on a Roman cross and burial. He reiterates this in 1 Corinthians 2:2, Galatians 3:1, 2 Corinthians 13:4, and many more occasions. He didn't derive this from a "revelation" but from the same synoptic tradition we find in the gospels.

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 Paul tells us that he received the tradition that Jesus had a last supper with his disciples before dying, quotes his alleged words "this is my body...blood...do this in memory of me") and then notes that he was betrayed by one of his disciples. Again, no personal revelation involved here - just a historical memory distributed in the early movement that formed part of the verbal tradition that was eventually written down in Mark's gospel. 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 Paul tells us that Jesus had a core of inner disciples called "the Twelve". Again, no revelation involved here - just an allusion to another verbal tradition. Romans 1:3 Paul tells us that in "his earthly life [Jesus] was a descendant of David". That is, he tells us about Jesus's flesh and blood ancestry (this could only have come from a family tradition i.e. "do you know, our family is supposedly descended from King David").

1 Thessalonians. 2:14–15 Paul tells us that Jewish leaders (the High Priests) participated in the killing of Jesus, again that's a reflection of the synoptic tradition of the trial before the Jewish elders. Paul tells the Corinthians that "the Lord [Jesus] commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel" (1 Corinthians ix. 14). This "command" appears in our synoptic tradition in the Matthaean commission to the twelve (Matthew x. 10), "the labourer deserves his food", and in the Lukan commission to the seventy (Luke x. 7).

As Bart Ehrman notes, "Paul's first letter (1 Thessalonians) is usually dated to 49 CE; his last (Romans?) to some twelve or thirteen years after that [...] In addition to data about Jesus’s life and death, Paul mentions on several occasions the teachings he delivered. Where did Paul get all this received tradition, from whom, and most important, when? Paul himself gives us some hints. He tells us, he made a trip to Jerusalem, and there he spent fifteen days with Cephas [Peter] and James. Cephas [Peter] was one of Jesus’s twelve disciples, and James was his brother."

Thus, scholars can discern strong 'kernels' of early Palestinian Jesus tradition through multiple attestation, criterion of embarrassment and many other analytical tools - and Paul has been found to exhibit this.


You can use whatever, often contradictory data you want, i will use roman history to understand how rome behaved
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Did Jesus teach Christianity or did Jesus teach Judaism?

Did Jesus intend to found a new religion? Did not Jesus say that he was sent for the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

In the immediate aftermath of Jesus's death, there was no dissension about keeping the Jewish mitzvot (and this includes from St. Paul, when he first joined, as demonstrated from Acts) because everyone in the early church - for the first decade or so - was ethnically Jewish and this was their ancestral-religious, divinely-revealed 'law'.

Thus, kashrut and tefillin and the Jewish holy days - Pesach, Pentecost, Sukkot and the Festival of Dedication (Hanukkah) etc. - were just part and parcel of their national life, heritage and cultural identity as Judean Jews; just like it was for all their neighbours. What reason did they have to cease abiding by the covenant that God had bequeathed to their nation in ancient times?

There was no written New Testament at that primitive point in time - no canon gospels, no apostolic epistles - which meant that the liturgical life of these first Christians was hardly any different from other Jews of the time in a synagogue setting (i.e. they read the Tanakh and interpreted it according to their own novel theology, in light of Jesus's teachings, ministry, death on the cross and (as they believed) resurrection and glorification in heaven). The only distinction was that the Christians, because of their marginal and persecuted status, had to gather more often in house-churches for safety reasons.

In essence there wasn't, as of yet, two distinct religions "Judaism" and "Christianity" but rather yet another novel mutation within the multiplicity of ideas that we lump together as 'Second Temple Judaism', which already included within its ambit many Hellenistic Jewish sects and philosophies. Jewish Christianity, initially, was just another variation.

Phrased differently, their understanding at that stage of what the "New Covenant" of Jesus meant for the "Old Covenant" was anything but supersecessionary in nature.

Jesus had given them a New Covenant with renewed ethical stipulations, his own interpretation of halakhah, a new theology that was close to Pharisaic Judaism but included some novel concepts and at least two 'additional' rites that had not been in the Torah: the baptism ritual of John the Baptist (for new converts to the movement) and the Eucharistic meal, which functioned as a Messianic banquet in which the sacrifice of Jesus for humanity was commemorated and the community engaged in fellowship (a "love-feast").

In terms of the historical Jesus himself: there are basically four main scholarly paradigms, in respect of the character of the historical Jesus (as opposed to the Son of God of 'faith'):


(1) the E.P. Sanders view of Jesus as an eschatological harbinger of a new order of things ('the kingdom of God'), a grand social reversal on a cosmic scale in which Israel would be restored and the nations converted to worship of its Deity: "a decisive change in the world, ushering in a new era and establishing God’s reign throughout the world, peace on earth, and plenty of food and drink for all. Jesus taught ethical perfectionism, that is, behavior that is appropriate to the Kingdom of God"

(2) the John Dominic Crossan view of Jesus as a Jewish cynic sage who preached a highly subversive code of ethical wisdom: "a way of looking and dressing, of eating, living and relating that announced its contempt for honour and shame, for patronage and clientage"

(3) the Horsley view of Jesus as a 'prophet of social change' "glancing nostalgically back to pre-monarchic times" when "no specific tribe or locale had primacy" (Reed, J. L. Archaeology and the Galilean Jesus: A Re-examination of the Evidence p.58) but a series of twelve tribal judges governed Israel as "a loose confederation [with] no central government [except] in times of crisis, [when] the people would have been led by ad hoc chieftains, known as judges (shoftim)"(Kitchen, K. A. (2003)) and in this way, "recalling a time before the people of Israel decided to be like other nations and have a king, rejecting God's direct rule" (Meggitt (2015) p.24). This explains why the "kingdom" is described solely as the kingdom of "God" by Jesus in the gospel accounts, rather than the kingdom of 'Jesus', or 'David' or any other human being

(4) the Crossley view of Jesus, fundamentally, as a kind of political dissident against the Roman Empire (out of a kind of non-violent Israelite patriotism). As Peter Marshall observes, Jesus consistently “held political authority up to derision [by] demystifying and mocking the power it claimed." To quote Professor Brian pounds in a recent 2019 thesis: "Jesus does seem to subvert Roman power structures by declaring that his followers are not to “lord over” others as Gentile rulers do but rather that the one who desires to be great should become servant or slave of all (Mark 10:42-44)."

Each of these scholarly portrayels is thoroughly 'defensible' based on the data provided to us in the gospels and other early Christian literature (such as the allusions to Jesus's teachings or life in Paul's epistles and in the agrapha, that is extra-canonical sayings tradition). Thus, it's perhaps best to 'integrate' the insights of each one of these incredibly well-researched scholarly paradigms.

Where they agree, pretty much, is along the lines of what Bart Ehrman summarizes in his book Misquoting Jesus:


Whose Word is It?


Most scholars remain convinced that Jesus proclaimed the coming Kingdom of God, in which there would be no more injustice, suffering, or evil, in which all people, rich and poor, slave and free, men and women, would be on equal footing. This obviously proved particularly attractive as a message of hope to those who in the present age were underprivileged—the poor, the sick, the outcast. And the women...

One of Jesus’s characteristic teachings is that there will be a massive reversal of fortunes [in the Kingdom]. Those who are rich and powerful now will be humbled then; those who are lowly and oppressed now will then be exalted. The apocalyptic logic of this view is clear: it is only by siding with the forces of evil that people in power have succeeded in this life; and by siding with God other people have been persecuted and rendered powerless...


They just disagree over the 'why' and 'how' of this great reversal of the "haves and have-nots, the marginalized and privileged".

Jesus wasn't a Rabbi in any technical or scholastic meaning of that term in his first century context. I'm not aware of him ever being said to have actually sat at the feet of an elder in a formal school framework. However, for his own group of devoted disciples he did very much become their Rabbi and was thus referred to as such honorifically (i.e. by Mary Magdalene: "Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to him in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means Teacher)" (John 20:16)).

Fundamentally, he appears to have been a populist-itinerant teacher operating very much within the broad ambit of Second Temple 'Judaism'. It would seem that Jesus expected a radical eschatological intervention by the God of Israel in human history, whether within his own lifetime or after. He regarded himself as playing a key role in that regard, symbolically referring to himself as the Bridegroom at the divine 'wedding feast' in the coming kingdom of God. This is closely tied to his subversion of societal norms - both of the Judean and Greco-Roman varieties. Since he was evidently convinced in his own mind that the present 'corrupt' order of things could not last and was certain to be overthrown, he appears to have felt at liberty to both affirm his adherence to the Torah and yet also instruct his followers to start living in the here and now, according to the modality of life he anticipated would become general in the Kingdom of God.

This makes him both manifestly Jewish but also radically so - because whilst he was stauchly, emphatically Torah-observant, he also looked beyond to something new that would 'break-in' to history and that he would have a hand in helping to implement. Eschatological literature enjoyed widespread popularity during the period of the Second Temple, typified by a variety of texts roughly contemporaneous with Jesus and his apostles: the Psalms of Solomon, the Book of Enoch, 4 Ezra, Testament of Abraham and the Qumran writings.

The common thematic element in this explosion of apocalyptic literature is not the "end of the world" (as many people understand eschatology today, unfortunately) but rather a time of tribulation followed by a decisive intervention by God that would lead to him establishing His own Kingdom on earth, a paradise of peace and well-being. That's what Jesus was anticipating as well.

But Jesus believed his followers were to live in the kingdom already - emulating its ideals even before a miraculous intervention by God arrived to inaugurate the restored Israel and earth. This means it was more than simply future-oriented but rather had tangible consequences for the intermediate 'here-and-now'. E.P. Sanders suggests as much when he opines it is possible that Jesus, in addition to expecting the impending arrival of the Kingdom as a future epoch, also "may have spoken about the kingdom as a present reality into which individuals enter one by one".

In pointing to this looming seismic change in human affairs, Jesus made a powerful symbolic gesture by overturning the tables of the moneychangers in the temple (with a whip in the fourth gospel). This is the act which a number of scholars - both in the apocalyptic and social change schools - believe led to his execution, though there were obviously other contributing causes. His disciples, after the death and resurrection, continued to expect the restoration of Israel and the inauguration of the new age as indicated by Acts 1:6:


 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I think most Christians would agree that it started at the Old Testament.

There's even a Sumerian creation story for the Solar System that's pretty tight!

Well, Christians yes but were the early followers of Jesus, Christian?

I've read they did not call themselves Christians. In fact, that "Christian" started out as a derogatory term used by non-Christians.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Some say Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi.
I reckon he was a Galilean Jewish Handworker, maybe in wood, stone and bone.

Did Jesus teach Christianity or did Jesus teach Judaism?
Judaism. Absolutely Judaism but rebelling against a greedy, dishonest, quisling and Hellenist priesthood.

Did Jesus intend to found a new religion?
Nah....

Did not Jesus say that he was sent for the lost sheep of the house of Israel?
Probably sent AGAINST them. They would have been the Temple priesthood. The Baptist reckoned they were a bunch of vipers.

If however, you say Jesus did not come to found a new religion, then where did Christianity come from?
Paul. All from Paul and some others.
Nothing to do with Yeshua BarYosef at all.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
If however, you say Jesus did not come to found a new religion, then where did Christianity come from?

This is the really complicated, opaque and whatever-way-you-cut-it, inherently controversial question in your OP. I actually dread this query!

I'm basically equivocal on when the 'split' definitively occurred - or open-minded, you might say, since its so very complex historiographically speaking. But I'll proffer some plausible theories, based on the latest consenses in scholarly circles. I would caveat them all though with a big fat ?.

Prior to the advent of contemporary New Testament-criticism and Second Temple Judaic scholarship, Christian theologians often presupposed a very crude and binary schism between the two religions, inaugurated not by Jesus but by the Apostle Paul and culminating around the time of the collapse of the Second Temple in 70 CE.

It was recognised even in patristic times, by many of the church fathers, that Jesus did not in fact overturn the Torah - so the 'schism' into a new faith cannot and has never been attributed to him. He was Jewish. A rather unique, radical and "marginal Jew" to reference another scholar, John P. Meier, in his own time and place even amongst the ranks of his fellow apocalypticists (if you happen to agree with E.P. Sanders and Ehrman that he was eschatological) but certainly Hebraic in his worldview, ethics and religiosity:


"His teaching evinced a style and content that did not jibe with the views and practices of the major Jewish religious groups of his day...

By the time he died, Jesus had managed to make himself appear obnoxious, dangerous, or suspicious to everyone, from pious Pharisees through political high priests to an ever vigilant Pilate. One reason Jesus met a swift and brutal end is simple: he alienated so many individuals and groups in Palestine that, when the final clash came in Jerusalem in 30 AD, he had very few people, especially people of influence, on his side.


The political marginality of this poor layman from the Galilean countryside with disturbing doctrines and claims was because he was dangerously anti-establishment and lacked a proper base in the capital..."

(Powell, 130-13
)

He was a bit of a 'rebellious spirit', no doubt - but his fundamental Judaism is unquestioned by both modern scholars and an ancient Catholic theologian of the stature of St. Augustine of Hippo (354 – 430 A.D) himself:


CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Faustum, Book XVI (Augustine)


The more we consider the words and actions of our Lord Jesus Christ, the more clearly will this appear; for Christ never tried to turn away any of the Israelites from their God. The God whom Moses taught the people to love and serve, is the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, whom the Lord Jesus Christ speaks of by this name, using the name in refutation of the Sadducees, who denied the resurrection of the dead...

The idea that Christ broke one of the commandments given by Moses is not a new one, for the Jews thought so; but it is a mistake, for the Jews were in the wrong. Let Faustus mention the commandment which he supposes the Lord to have broken, and we will point out his mistake, as we have done already, when it was required.

From this several things maybe learned: that Christ did not turn away the Jews from their God; that He not only did not Himself break God's commandments, but found fault with those who did so; and that it was God Himself who gave these commandments by Moses.


So, no, Jesus was Torah-observant. Not founder of a new religion.

Yet St. Paul, whilst having moved further down the path of subversion of normative Judaism than Jesus (largely because of his mystical-revelatory experiences that resulted in him sensing a great paradigm-shift had come in human, not just Jewish, history) is still not regarded by contemporary scholars as having conceived of what he was doing as 'founding' a new faith that necessarily supersceded the Torah.

And even the Church Fathers, again, recognised this fact. St. Augustine of Hippo again:


CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 40 (Augustine) or 67 (Jerome)

Paul was indeed a Jew; and when he had become a Christian, he had not abandoned those Jewish sacraments which that people had received in the right way, and for a certain appointed time. Therefore, even although he was an apostle of Christ, he took part in observing these; but with this view, that he might show that they were in no wise hurtful to those who, even after they had believed in Christ, desired to retain the ceremonies which by the law they had learned from their fathers...For the same reason, he judged that these ceremonies should by no means be made binding on the Gentile converts, because, by imposing a heavy and superfluous burden, they might turn aside from the faith those who were unaccustomed to them...

5. The thing, therefore, which he rebuked in Peter was not his observing the customs handed down from his fathers — which Peter, if he wished, might do without being chargeable with deceit or inconsistency, for, though now superfluous, these customs were not hurtful to one who had been accustomed to them — but his compelling the Gentiles to observe Jewish ceremonies


St. Paul was personally Torah-observant. His theology, when understood properly in its original Greek (as opposed to the interpretations given by later exegetes), did not actually annul the physical and cultic differentiation between the 'covenanted' people of Israel (Jews) bound by the Torah and the rest of the world's nations (goyim), which are not so covenanted. The original conception of the 'church' was meant to be embracive of both 'Jews and Gentiles' as brethren in a new shared Abrahamic covenant in Christ.

(continued....)
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Paul uses the word pistis and close variants throughout his epistles. It is usually rendered into English as “faith,” yet “faithfulness” is a more accurate translation, which in a manner akin to the Hebre ’emunah is suggestive of loyalty and trust, which include appropriate moral conduct. So this is not 'faith' in a sense dissaociated from moral works. As one Pauline scholar, Mark D. Nanos explains:



"Where Paul contrasts faithfulness to deeds, he is actually contrasting two different propositions for two different groups (non-Jews or Jews), and thus two different ways of being faithful (by non-Jews, apart from circumcision and thus not under Mosaic covenant obligations because they do not become Jews/Israelites; by Jews, including circumcision and concomitant Mosaic covenant obligations)...

Thus, Judaism, Paul believed, should announce that it was time for the nations to turn to Israel’s God, the one and only God, through Jesus. The Gentiles do not become Israel when that day arrives; rather, they must remain members of the other nations, just as was expected (see Isa 2.2–4; chs 65–66). But they do become fellow members of the Jewish way of life, that is, of the Jewish communities and their religious practice of Judaism. Jews remain Jews in that day, which was so fundamentally obvious for Paul and his contemporaries that it was not even a topic of his discussions; it was simply assumed.

It is evident in the logic of his instructions to non-Jews, e.g., in 1 Cor 7.17–24, when he says his “rule” in all his assemblies is for everyone to remain in the state one was in when called, the circumcised in a circumcised state, and the foreskinned in foreskinned state, but in whichever state one is in, it is essential that one “obey the commandments of God.” When this instruction is coupled with Paul’s attestation (Gal 5.3) that anyone in a circumcised state is obliged to observe the whole Torah, it is evident that Paul presumes all Jewish Christ-followers would remain faithful to their Jewish covenant identity by the observance of Torah."



This 'other dimension' to Paul's worldview, is preserved most clearly in two anecdotes recorded in the Acts of the Apostles. The first, involving the instance where St. Paul circumcises Timothy:



"Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him; and he took him and had him circumcised because of the Jews who were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek." (Acts 16:3)​


Now, under an overly-restrictive interpretation of the phrase: "I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all" (Galatians 5:2), Paul would in this circumstance be acting contrary to his own conscientious principles. However, of course, Paul was referring only to goyim believers in Galatians 5:2, to whom circumcision would be of no avail since they are not under the Mosaic covenant. Elsewhere, he states contrarily, with reference to Jewish believers: "Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much, in every way." (Romans 3:1-2)

And in Timothy's case, he evidently concluded that it would be of value to circumcise this uncircumcised 'Greek-raised' young man, because he had a Jewish mother and Paul therefore felt obliged to show other Jews that he was Torah-observant.

We can see this spelt out quite clearly in the subtext of Acts chapter 21, where Paul comes before James - Jesus's 'brother' and the titular head of the Jerusalem church, then the mother church of the Christian movement in the pre-destruction of the Second Temple era - and James informs him that pernicious rumours had been spread abroad that he was encouraging Jews to cease obeying Torah.

To 'quash' the rumours - which James takes to be false, clearly stated in the text - he and the other 'elders' instruct Paul to undergo a ritual purification rite to prove his faithfulness to the mitzvot in public and Paul humbly obliges (deferring to James's authority):



"When we arrived in Jerusalem, the brothers welcomed us warmly. 18 The next day Paul went with us to visit James; and all the elders were present. 19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 When they heard it, they praised God.

Then they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the Torah. 21 They have been told about you that you teach all the Jews living among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, and that you tell them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 So do what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow.

24 Join these men, go through the rite of purification with them, and pay for the shaving of their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself observe and guard the Torah. 25 But as for the Gentiles who have become believers, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled* and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having purified himself, he entered the temple with them, making public the completion of the days of purification when the sacrifice would be made for each of them."


(Acts 21:17-26)​


Note that every Jewish Christian is described here by the Jerusalem elders as strictly Torah observant ("zealous" for the Torah) and Paul complies with the order to demonstrate that he too is still a Torah-observant Jew, even performing a sacrifice in the Temple.

So, really, we equally cannot accuse Paul of being the 'founder' of Christianity as a distinct religion either :)facepalm: ikr?), although he's a much better candidate than Jesus.

Early Jewish Christianity strikes me as somewhat akin to the modern Chabad movement in Judaism, inasmuch as, like the Lubavitcher Rebbe (who died in 1994 after inspiring unfulfiled Messianic expectations in his followers, some of whom refused to accept that he'd truly 'died' but continued believing in his Messianic status and that he'd come back, somehow, to complete it) but with a key difference: Chabad had been extraordinarily successful in its outreach to other Jews, whereas Christianity proved particularly appealing to Greeks and Romans interested in the Jewish scriptures, which set Christianity - ultimately - on quite a different trajectory towards its eventual domination of the ancient Roman world as an entirely distinct religion.

So where does 'Christianity' really begin as something utterly distinct from a Jewish matrix?

One of the most interesting episodes of this "border-setting" - at the end point of the centuries-long process - comes to us from the church father St. Jerome (345-420), in which he condemns a group of Jewish Christians named 'Nazarenes' (the lasting remnants of the originally Jewish Christianity) still extant in the fourth century and attests that the Rabbis - 'Pharisees' as he calls them - also regarded them as minim (heretics):


CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 75 (Augustine) or 112 (Jerome)


What shall I say of the Ebionites who pretend to be Christians? To-day there still exists among the Jews in all the synagogues of the East a heresy which is called that of the Minæans [Minim], and which is still condemned by the Pharisees; [its followers] are ordinarily called 'Nasarenes'; they believe that Christ, the son of God...to be the one who suffered under Pontius Pilate and ascended to heaven, and in whom we also believe. But while they pretend to be both Jews and Christians, they are neither.


St. Epiphanius (320 - 403) had written about them at the same time:


They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Christ; but since they are still fettered by the Law – circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest – they are not in accord with the Christians.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.4


The basic answer is the Catholic Church Fathers and Jewish Rabbis. They 'set' the parameters and defined Christian versus Jewish orthodoxy respectively, aided by the fact that Jewish Christians were rapidly depleting (though still active in certain synagogues as mentioned above, viewed as minim or heretics by other Jews) in numbers by the fourth century when Christianity rose to become the state creed of the Roman Empire.

From St. Justin Martyr in the second century to St. Jerome in the fourth, these pioneering theologians outlined an emphatically Gentile Christianity conveyed to pagans using philosophical and ontological language categories derived from Greek philosophy. Thus you have the teasing out of the fundamental dogmas of the Nicene creed: most famously, the Trinity which is sharply distinct from Jewish unitarianism (though both are forms of monotheism, One Divine Being).

The answer to your question is thus in 'there' somewhere - but I can't tell you definitively!
 
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SeekerOnThePath

On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
Some say Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi.

Well, to his disciples were, as they address him that way. English NT translations usually read "teacher" but the Hebrew word would be Rabbi, the earliest known NT manuscripts were written in Greek though (which is severely problematic in itself).
His fellow Jewish peers did not regard him as such though.

Did Jesus teach Christianity or did Jesus teach Judaism?

There's no doubting, from the NT "Gospels according to" (so-called) that, while there are lots of contradictions, he is depicted as having taught a messianic form of Judaism, post-Essene is possibly the case. His original teaching was excepted by very few and wasn't well-taken by the Jews of his day (hence later "Christianity" has a strong antagonism and even antisemitic attitude, towards Jews).
He critiques his Jewish peers from the Pharisees and Sadducees, but then so did the Nevi'im towards the Israelites of their day.

Did Jesus intend to found a new religion?

No, definitely not, especially in the Judeo-NT context (I say that because in the Islamic context, God says in the Qur'an that Jesus received revelation of which is different from the NT per se).
His movement though were known as the Nazarenes (even the Qur'an defends this point and refers to them by this name), the NT designates them by this term as well, as well as the phrase "The Way".

The term "Christian" itself is a derogatory slur used to insult people who followed a crucified messiah claimant, as found twice in the book of Acts and once in the epistle of 1 Peter.

Did not Jesus say that he was sent for the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

He absolutely did, multiple times in fact.
If anything, in his NT depiction I'd go as far as to say that Jesus is depicted as even a bit racist towards Gentiles (not in your aforementioned reference but in relation to it, such as how he calls Gentiles pigs/swine).

If however, you say Jesus did not come to found a new religion, then where did Christianity come from?

Catholic church mainly (yes, Protestants take most of their ideas from the Catholic church but relativise/subjectivize it x100)

Between Paul and the foundations of the Catholic Church, I designate that period as Proto-Christian. There is tendencies towards the attempt to both distinguish away from and even oppose Judaism, at the same time as tendencies towards trying to create their own official orthodoxy and canon.

Paul himself was just some guy, and not a nice one either, but his proselytizing attempts in Europe (as well as his seeming opposition to Torah-observance to appeal to Gentiles) were the precursor towards Proto-Christianity.
Jesus and the 12 Disciples, by contrast were more of a form of Jewish messianic asceticism. Jesus in his own frame of reference could be potentially seen as a Torah-restorationist at the least.


Btw his actual name is Iēsou in Greek, Yeshua in both Hebrew and Aramaic (the Aramaic abbreviates the name). In common language this word is rendered as the common name Joshua (yes, you read me correct).
Strangely in many countries naming your baby Jesus is illegal but naming your baby Joshua is legal, so strange considering they are the same name.
The particular now almost universally used (by english speakers) name "Jesus" is a very poor variation of the Latin name Iesus.
So basically even Jesus' name is a parody on "Christians" themselves.
 
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lukethethird

unknown member
Did Christianity Start with Jesus?
Is there any way of knowing? All we have are religious texts that leave too much to interpretation.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
We have a very good idea where Christianity came from.
There are only 7 epistles that are considered authentic by scholarship. Paul did not know of anything but a pre-existant celestial being and revealed gospel.
But the short answer that takes historical evidence into account is during the 300 year Persian occupation concepts that were not part of Judaism were merged into scripture - messianic demigods, good vs evil, linear time, world ends in fire and good people get resurrected, OT professor Francesca Stavrakopoulou and NT scholar Richard Carrier confirm this.
This information was mainly discovered by scholar Mary Boyce when she spent time living in Iran to study the Persian religion.
After this we see the emergence of at least 6 religions in the region that had dying/rising savior demigods who forgave sins and got baptized followers into the afterlife.
Merging Judaism with these mystery religions results in Christianity.

All religions are syncretic mergings of prior myths so this isn't hard to imagine.
Even the original Jewish myths are traced back to earlier sources.

"Comparative mythology provides historical and cross-cultural perspectives for Jewish mythology."

We know Noah's Ark closely follows the Epic of Gilamesh and both creation accounts mirror the Mesopotamian creation myths and so on.
To be able to see these stories in light of mythology it helps to understand what are common mythic themes used in scripture:
Christian mythology - Wikipedia

They also touch on the Persian influence.

Another article that breaks down literary devices used in Mark to illustrate that the Gospels are demonstrably mythical allegorical fiction.
The Gospels as Allegorical Myth, Part I of 4: Mark


Another issue is early Christianity was very diverse. Elaine Pagels book The Gnostic Gospels demonstrated the Gnostic movement was equally popular with more traditional sects.
There were about 40 known gospels and in the 2nd century there were sects that looked nothing like the current version.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
Some say Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi.

Did Jesus teach Christianity or did Jesus teach Judaism?

Did Jesus intend to found a new religion? Did not Jesus say that he was sent for the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

If however, you say Jesus did not come to found a new religion, then where did Christianity come from?

Well, even according to the Bible, the adherents of Jesus were called Christians first in Antioch years after Jesus passed away. Even the word was coined, according to the Bible after Jesus passed.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
We know Noah's Ark closely follows the Epic of Gilamesh and both creation accounts mirror the Mesopotamian creation myths and so on.
To be able to see these stories in light of mythology it helps to understand what are common mythic themes used in scripture:

The problem with the mythology theory based on one parallel like the Epic of Gilgamesh is that they are not following through with the reasoning. The logical conclusion of parallelism, unless otherwise there are many parallels to one story with too many similarities to consider, two stories might have another single source that doesnt exist anymore.

Gilgamesh may have a flood, while the Bible also has a flood, but both may have one single source or one legend both adopted to the literature. That doesn't mean its a myth.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Some say Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi.

Did Jesus teach Christianity or did Jesus teach Judaism?

Did Jesus intend to found a new religion? Did not Jesus say that he was sent for the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

If however, you say Jesus did not come to found a new religion, then where did Christianity come from?
The historical Jesus, if we can pry him away from legend, taught the Torah. He believed he was the messiah, but he failed in his attempt. Not in a million years did he ever imagine a new religion coming into being. That was Paul's doing. Paul substantially changed the theology, so much so that the theology of Paul's writings contradicts the theology of the Tanakh. Further, Judaism, like Jesus, is concerned with Jews. Paul created something that was universal in nature, and ended up becoming hostile to Jews.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The problem with the mythology theory based on one parallel like the Epic of Gilgamesh is that they are not following through with the reasoning. The logical conclusion of parallelism, unless otherwise there are many parallels to one story with too many similarities to consider, two stories might have another single source that doesnt exist anymore.

Gilgamesh may have a flood, while the Bible also has a flood, but both may have one single source or one legend both adopted to the literature. That doesn't mean its a myth.

It's the basic concepts that involve gods.
In both stories God(s) tells them to build a boat and put animals on it so humanity can be wiped out.
Each account has a symbol from God (a neclace and a rainbow) as a symbol the Earth will never be flooded.
Both release a bird to find land and many other small similarities.
But it's the myth of God deciding to wipe out humanity, picking one couple and putting all animals on the ship. That concept is extremely specific and each culture seemed to want a version in their god-stories.
 
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