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Did Epicurus disprove God?

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
That's the point though. If God didn't give us the ability then we don't have the choice to choose that ability. In this same sense it wouldn't be any different to limit our ability to do evil than limiting our ability to fly. Thus it's not a valid argument to say that God didn't want to take away our free will because free will isn't binary. At that point though, it's hard to argue that this amount of free will was "just right."

-Benhamine
"Free will" as it's used here is about what we freely choose to do. It's true that if God didn't give us some ability we don't have a chance to utilize that ability, but neither is it possibly an option in the case of a choice about it. Before we can freely choose to do something, like evil, we have to be able to do it --the ability has to exist. There's no willful choice that can be exercised in things that don't exist.

We can do evil. That we do choose to do it or not do it is "free will." If evil doesn't exist, never existed, and can't exist because God didn't give us the ability, then the issue of "free will" in regards to it vanishes with it. "Poof".
 

Benhamine

Learning Member
"Free will" as it's used here is about what we freely choose to do. It's true that if God didn't give us some ability we don't have a chance to utilize that ability, but neither is it possibly an option in the case of a choice about it. Before we can freely choose to do something, like evil, we have to be able to do it --the ability has to exist. There's no willful choice that can be exercised in things that don't exist.

We can do evil. That we do choose to do it or not do it is "free will." If evil doesn't exist, never existed, and can't exist because God didn't give us the ability, then the issue of "free will" in regards to it vanishes with it. "Poof".

I agree whole heartedly and I think we're getting somewhere :yes:

What I argue is...Why does God want us to have that free will? Nothing good can come of it only suffering.

-Benhamine
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
but we are assuming their POV not ours.
they decide whether or not they want to sleep or play...obey or not.



assuming gods perspective...he didn't give us the ability to teleport or fly even though we want to....
so what is the difference between that and understanding the relative meaning of good and evil?
i don't see a difference.
Ok from POV there is free will according to a lesser being but in actualtiy there is none especially when coming from the POV of a more advance being.

edit: and i'm not talking about not being able to fly or teleport I'm talking about our ability to go against our own chemical processes
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
What I argue is...Why does God want us to have that free will? Nothing good can come of it only suffering.

-Benhamine
Ah, I see. You're saying we're all better off with "poof". Thing is that everything in the world is connected, there's nothing that stands alone. Removing any one thing, like suffering, affects everything --it affects the whole world.

For instance, without suffering there is no need for compassion because no one would ever be harmed. There would be no courts, no laws, no lawsuits, no police, no justice --don't need justice if everything is just. There would be no medicine, because no one would feel the need to help someone who got hurt, because no one would actually get hurt by falling down and breaking their leg. There would also be no chemistry or biology, whose main applications are in medicine, because there would be no need to understand the human body, or anyone else's bodies. No need for commerce, because no one would need to get money to buy food, because no one gets hurt by starving to death; and no compassionate person to bury them. No zoology, no cosmology, and ultimately no astronauts on the moon.

Do you really want a world with no astronauts on the moon? :sarcastic I think not.

:)
 

Landerage

Araknor
i see no mercy. i see indifference.
and that is the argument that epicurus, i think, makes.

Well sensing God's mercy can only be felt in personal experiences, I encourage you to plead God for help in any dire situation u get and see the results urself, best wishes
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
This whole paragraph humors me.

Glad the Gnostic version can bypass the faulty logic at work here.
Explain Please.

Explain what humor is, or explain how to bypass faulty logic?

I think I get what you want to have explained, but there is sound bite version which I think all is really warranted, though may leave more questions; and there is longer length version which right now feels like time not well spent. So, I'll go with ridiculously short version.

Demiurge (LORD God) 'made up' a tree of "good and evil" to trick his projected creation (Adam) into becoming like him; split from God. This is forbidden, according to Demiurge. Reality is Demiurge is not split, but thinks it possible to experience said split, and to keep humanity under spell that is illusion within illusion. Not just split from God, but opposing God via sin and evil. Therefore evil exists. Humanity will believe in this.


So when God says thou shout not kill that means we can kill because killing being wrong is an illusion?

LOL.

Other way of understanding "thou shalt not kill" is along lines of, 'when you are on path to God, you will know this, because thou shalt not kill.' Or desire to kill, even by own self defense, will be replaced with "I am (eternal) Life."

Esoteric knowledge warning - yes, killing is an illusion. All the human made laws and all the reasoning we can dream up will not prevent one from finding reason / desire / justification to kill another. Killing in some circumstance (some very noble, righteous circumstances) is deemed very appropriate. And when that is logic at work (by say State or 'noble class'), then it is principle that can be made to work in many circumstances. All are illusion at best, and insanity if honestly looked at.

If evil disappears into nothing then how can God choose between right and wrong?

Why might God need (even desire) to make this choice?

How can he judge anyone if every evil act is just an illusion? Where do these rules in the Bible come?

Not sure what 2nd question is actually asking.

With regards to first question, think of God as ultimate skeptic. Perhaps not best way of putting it, but for a moment, consider it that God is very foreign to (human) judgment. And that instead what God is 'entirely up to' is giving / extending infinite Love to Creation, as if that is 'only judgment that matters.'

Well, here in world where rapists are doing what rapists do, while hard workers are doing what hard workers do, and honest teachers do what honest teachers do, that (may) strikes us as absolutely preposterous that 'this is all God has in terms of solution or answer?' Which on surface seems a bit ridiculous, but if willing to go deep (within own consciousness) in Gnostic teachings, the Love answer is supreme logic at work.

But since some may not get that, or will outright refute it, then God sends Helpers (countless forms, think Holy Spirit as granddaddy of them all) to assist with 'specifics.' This is still God, as reality is you, me, everyone is still God, but there is that among us which is thinking it possible (even observable) to actively oppose God and/or maintain (distant) separation from God; and that which pretty much realizes and is teaching (repeatedly), You have not left your Source. That 2nd one is esoteric. The first version, or 'other reality' holds high conviction in a visible world that is manifested via divine Will. It is not possible to be undone instantaneously, unless free will is violated. Love won't do that (and still be Love).

Even I may argue the 'instantaneous' part but that is technicality.

So, we Gnostic types teach evil is illusion, even while there is 'force' at work that is doing all it can to convince Creation that the illusion is only reality. (From that perspective) Don't believe this? Jump off a bridge, or cut off your hand, and tell me how your 'illusion' logic holds up. Thus, like in the 'Garden' it is using stakes of death to let you know, you cannot be truly free. And if God does exist, the only way you'll 'see' him is in death. Who wants that?

I don't have full control of my dreams nor is their real physical pain for anyone in my dreams. If I were in control of my dreams I would likely rid my dreams of evil.

Within the dream, pain is perceived as real. Perceived as real. It is 'actual' within that framework, and I believe you understand this. Upon awakening, you have enlightened perspective. Well, hmmm, might that not tell you something about perceived physical pain in this world / version of 'reality?' In night dreams do you absolutely have to die to be awakened? No. Neither do you have to in this reality. You might not enter into "full wakefulness" from what will seem a lot like 'being awakened' via mindfulness, heart's desire to be on path to God, but as you awaken, the more you will realize, pain is illusion. Death is illusion. Body is illusion. Physical is illusion. Evil is illusion. Anything that seems to separate one from God Self and seems to oppose God Self is illusion.

And one last question. How exactly does Heaven work? Considering Heaven is supposed to be an all good place. If this is all relative will there be justified murders in Heaven? Will rape be subject to some illusion and thus acceptable?

Heaven is nowhere.
Oops, typo there, sorry.
Heaven is now here.

It is possible to see this as now, here, but in my understanding and experience, that is 'fulfillment of God's Grace to your Being' and/or is 'full enlightenment.' It is not "end."

If understanding body is illusion, you can perhaps just intellectualize how rape is really of no consequence cause its cause is baseless. But admittedly, there is a perceptible hop, skip and a jump to get to this understanding, for rape in my estimation still sucks and is gross violation. Therefore I judge it as 'real' to some degree and not as mere illusion.

A bit of key is to realize that when on path to God, the answers will come from you, or more like through you. I would tell you honestly, if any of what you have read here is making some sense, realize it is coming through you, and not (only) in vein of 'some guy on internet said some funky things about reality that I think made sense.' Doesn't work that way really. This is You bringing this through to you. Or as I understand it, this is Me bringing this through to me. So, as you go on this path, you do understand that "Thou shalt not kill" is not commandment of "do not do this," but instead a very helpful realization, of becoming self realized. And that Heaven, as experienced reality, is very close. But if "thou shalt not kill" is met with, "but of course in self defense of my body, I may need to kill," then perhaps by that own admission, you are not quite ready for path, even while you can't really be completely off path.

One esoteric understanding that comes from my 'text of choice' says the following:
Nothing real can be threatened
Nothing unreal exists
Herein lies the Peace of God

And with all that said, I guess this was best use of my (er, our) time....
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Well sensing God's mercy can only be felt in personal experiences, I encourage you to plead God for help in any dire situation u get and see the results urself, best wishes

thank you for the sentiment, that was very nice.
i'm curious though, what makes you think that i am the sort of person who calls out "why" when something wrong happens?
 

Mark2020

Well-Known Member
Epicurus said: God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

I suspect that he was right. Do you think he disproved God?

What evil do you mean?
 

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
Acim, I think I would need to be way higher than I am right now to completely understand what your saying. I do appreciate you taking the time to write everything that you wrote.
 

Landerage

Araknor
thank you for the sentiment, that was very nice.
i'm curious though, what makes you think that i am the sort of person who calls out "why" when something wrong happens?
w're all humans, and we all have our rough moments, even if some sound tough. and during my rough times I knew, besides the proves that i studied, that God was there for me and did sense his mercy because things that i found impossible to happen but prayed for them with deep honesty did happen. "if u go walking to God, he comes running towards you" (Hadith)
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
w're all humans, and we all have our rough moments, even if some sound tough. and during my rough times I knew, besides the proves that i studied, that God was there for me and did sense his mercy because things that i found impossible to happen but prayed for them with deep honesty did happen. "if u go walking to God, he comes running towards you" (Hadith)

why would you assume that i haven't already tried?
 

Landerage

Araknor
why would you assume that i haven't already tried?
because u told me u didnt sense his mercy, so i assumed u never really tried. because God will never "not answer" an honest person seeking to find his path towards God (review the Hadith) Best wishes (i wont be replying anymore, if u need any sources or great wise Hadith msg me)
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
I hope you have the logic to back that up.

There is more than One manual to the Aspect of Life.

Those that are guided by a path that deters themselves from experiencing what they consider as oppositional can only be weakened by the grind that wears against them.

Its not simple confrontation, but experiencing the side that they Oppose, and actually partaking in it.
 

Benhamine

Learning Member
Ah, I see. You're saying we're all better off with "poof". Thing is that everything in the world is connected, there's nothing that stands alone. Removing any one thing, like suffering, affects everything --it affects the whole world.

For instance, without suffering there is no need for compassion because no one would ever be harmed. There would be no courts, no laws, no lawsuits, no police, no justice --don't need justice if everything is just. There would be no medicine, because no one would feel the need to help someone who got hurt, because no one would actually get hurt by falling down and breaking their leg. There would also be no chemistry or biology, whose main applications are in medicine, because there would be no need to understand the human body, or anyone else's bodies. No need for commerce, because no one would need to get money to buy food, because no one gets hurt by starving to death; and no compassionate person to bury them. No zoology, no cosmology, and ultimately no astronauts on the moon.

Do you really want a world with no astronauts on the moon? :sarcastic I think not.

:)

Lol, I think we see 2 different outcomes. Most of what you said I'd agree with and like...but I feel if we had a world where we didn't have to work on FIXING suffering, then we'd have more time to enjoy life, and learn those things for the sake of learning them. Also if it meant that thousands of children didn't die of starvation every year, people didn't suffer through miserable deaths due to cancer, women being raped, children being raped, etc....I'd gladly give up our spoils, such as getting to the moon, of our penis measuring equivalent of a war :rolleyes:.

-Benhamine
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
because u told me u didnt sense his mercy, so i assumed u never really tried. because God will never "not answer" an honest person seeking to find his path towards God (review the Hadith)

so because i don't see mercy, i didn't try? isn't that being presumptuous?
are you also calling me a liar?

Best wishes (i wont be replying anymore, if u need any sources or great wise Hadith msg me)
ah ok...
:run:
you don't want to stick around and defend your baseless accusations...
good move.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Lol, I think we see 2 different outcomes. Most of what you said I'd agree with and like...but I feel if we had a world where we didn't have to work on FIXING suffering, then we'd have more time to enjoy life, and learn those things for the sake of learning them. Also if it meant that thousands of children didn't die of starvation every year, people didn't suffer through miserable deaths due to cancer, women being raped, children being raped, etc....I'd gladly give up our spoils, such as getting to the moon, of our penis measuring equivalent of a war :rolleyes:.

-Benhamine
Perhaps, just perhaps... suffering isn't something we have to fix? When a child is injured we feel compassion for their pain, and we are moved to end that pain by repairing the damage. In that case it is not suffering that we "fix," but something in the world. Something wrong in the world. Suffering is what allows us to recognize that "wrong."

All is as it should be.
 
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