Did Epicurus disprove God?

[waitasec]

Free will is found in the capacity to act, not in doing whatever you want.

well said...

 

[Benhamine]

[/color][/color]Because the ability to fly or teleport isn't free will? Free will is found in the capacity to act, not in doing whatever you want.

It's the capacity to choose between the options you have in front of you. The only way that removing evil from the equation would exile free will would be if all decisions were binary and there were only 1 good choice and 1 bad. We know this isn't true. For example I may choose to adopt a child, help it find another home, help it's parents with support (moral and physical), do nothing, or kill it. Why would removing the last 2 options get rid of free will?

-Benhamine

 

[Dan4reason]

I don't understand this example. please clarify.

There is also natural evil which is caused by other animals, and nature.

Your assuming God is willing to spoil us with short term pleasure at the risk of letting his goal to grant us immortality fall through?
If God controls everything, our lives further his goal. Which to be honest is goal I'm comfortable being a pawn for, as it benefits me in the end (assuming this is all real). A few crappy decades are worth immortality.

Of course, you are happy. You are getting immortality. What about those people who aren't going to heaven? What if you had been born in another place, don't you think it is possible that you might not have done so well that you are doing now?

Genetics give us a starting point, how we adapt with them is our choice.
Also, God can only do so much with your DNA (if he constructs it at all). The material for your DNA exists within your parent's DNA. If God didn't follow that rule, evolution and adaptation wouldn't work (more so evolution).

Because of evolution. Emotions are an extension of instinct, which are rooted in your DNA. Also emotions play a big part in society, it keeps it dynamic and changing on the individual level (which has a ripple effect on all of society in some way) according to the Symbolic-Interaction paradigm of Sociology (and the Chaos Theory of mathematics). Removing emotion, especially love , would have prevented societies from forming as people wouldn't have bonded with each other. It is impossible to "control" emotions, you can suppress your reaction to them, but you can't control them.

I see, so emotions are messing up free will, and some DNA makes it harder more people to be good. These are products of evolution huh? I think God needs to have a little talk with the guy who got that process started don't you think? Who planned for this whole evolution thing to create the human race in the first place?

God's word is law and God bound himself to never break his word. He swore to never take away free will.
Also you assume that free will and Evil are not tools God use to bring us closer to immortality.

Fine. But why can't God eliminate evil without harming free will. An omnipotent being can do anything right?

 

[waitasec]

It's the capacity to choose between the options you have in front of you. The only way that removing evil from the equation would exile free will would be if all decisions were binary and there were only 1 good choice and 1 bad. We know this isn't true. For example I may choose to adopt a child, help it find another home, help it's parents with support (moral and physical), do nothing, or kill it. Why would removing the last 2 options get rid of free will?

-Benhamine

only if you are in a position to do so...meaning only if you have "the capacity to act" out on all those options.

 

[Azekual]

There is also natural evil which is caused by other animals, and nature.

Evil can only exist in sapient beings. Killing another animal for food is not evil, it's survival. Only a sapient being can understand moral codes and thus, can choose to be evil.

Of course, you are happy. You are getting immortality. What about those people who aren't going to heaven? What if you had been born in another place, don't you think it is possible that you might not have done so well that you are doing now?

Yes. In fact, if I was born elsewhere, I could have been an atheist (in fact I was one for many years). If they want to believe they can. No one is stopping them.

I see, so emotions are messing up free will, and some DNA makes it harder more people to be good. These are products of evolution huh? I think God needs to have a little talk with the guy who got that process started don't you think? Who planned for this whole evolution thing to create the human race in the first place?

Emotions tell you what to do and how to feel, but you can ignore then to some extent. Though you cannot control them. God planned it in theory, but I have no evidence to that claim.

Fine. But why can't God eliminate evil without harming free will. An omnipotent being can do anything right?

If we were ignorant of Good and Evil, he very well could have. But we know of evil and thus acknowledge it as a choice. Thus he cannot remove it.

 

[waitasec]

If we were ignorant of Good and Evil, he very well could have. But we know of evil and thus acknowledge it as a choice. Thus he cannot remove it.

iow, it is what it is...
for me that's just like saying
some of us are just trying to make sense of it while others accept it as a relative concept.

 

[Benhamine]

only if you are in a position to do so...meaning only if you have "the capacity to act" out on all those options.

That's kind of my point though...Our options are already limited. Limiting them more doesn't nullify free will, it only makes it less. One can't argue that God chose to allow evil because he wanted us to have free will, because we could have had free will and still have no evil. It's kind of a goldy-lockes situation. Why did God feel that what he gave us was just right? I don't see how what we live in could be created by an omniscent, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god...

-Benhamine

 

[Blackdog22]

If we were ignorant of Good and Evil, he very well could have. But we know of evil and thus acknowledge it as a choice. Thus he cannot remove it.

Were we not ignorant of evil in the garden? I think we all know what happens when evil is removed.. God creates fruit trees!! Evil, evil, fruit trees....and then we all die.

I also have to ask how exactly will we function in Heaven? I don't see Christians getting ****** off about the lack of free will to do evil in Heaven. How exactly do they think Heaven will function and why exactly would those set of rules not work out for us here on earth?

For me it only makes sense that God, who obviously created an evil tree, is the source of evil. If he didn't want evil to exist then he would of just skipped straight to Heaven. Just imagine for a second that Adam and Eve didn't eat from that apple and they reproduced... okay skip ahead 6000 years(lol) and now what? We have to keep an eye on billions of people to ensure this fruit isn't eaten? Can we make a compound around the tree to ensure no one enters or would God be ******? Face it, at some point this fruit would of been eaten and God knew it. The guy...is..evil... and there is no hope for us if he truly does exist.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Were we not ignorant of evil in the garden? I think we all know what happens when evil is removed.. God creates fruit trees!! Evil, evil, fruit trees....and then we all die.

I also have to ask how exactly will we function in Heaven? I don't see Christians getting ****** off about the lack of free will to do evil in Heaven. How exactly do they think Heaven will function and why exactly would those set of rules not work out for us here on earth?

For me it only makes sense that God, who obviously created an evil tree, is the source of evil. If he didn't want evil to exist then he would of just skipped straight to Heaven. Just imagine for a second that Adam and Eve didn't eat from that apple and they reproduced... okay skip ahead 6000 years(lol) and now what? We have to keep an eye on billions of people to ensure this fruit isn't eaten? Can we make a compound around the tree to ensure no one enters or would God be ******? Face it, at some point this fruit would of been eaten and if God isn't an idiot he knows that. The guy...is..evil... and there is no hope for us if he truly does exist.

Winner receives furballs.

 

[Azekual]

For me it only makes sense that God, who obviously created an evil tree, is the source of evil.

The tree wasn't evil. It was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam and Eve were innocent and wouldn't have multiplied like rabbits if they stayed in the garden, there would be a few million humans, tops.

I'm not sure. I can only assume since we know God, we wouldn't want to do evil, either out of self-preservation or respect

 

[Blackdog22]

The tree wasn't evil. It was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam and Eve were innocent and wouldn't have multiplied like rabbits if they stayed in the garden, there would be a few million humans, tops.

I'm not sure. I can only assume since we know God, we wouldn't want to do evil, either out of self-preservation or respect

Right, but it had knowledge of evil inside of it, which would thus cause us to do evil, which would make it the source of our ideas on evil, which makes God responsible for introducing us to evil.

Okay, under the presumed idea that somehow being pure makes the want to have sex less desirable, I would actually argue that Adam would have super semen and would thus would pass down super semen that would spread our population even faster... Either way, ill take a million. So at some point we were supposed to stop a million people from eating the fruit? How exactly do you expect we would've done that? Especially with that pesky snake tempting everyone that God managed to overlook.

Why isn't that okay for us on earth then? Why are you of the idea that freewill without the ability to do evil isn't freewill, but when applied to a heavenly realm that logic goes out the window?

 

[Willamena]

It's the capacity to choose between the options you have in front of you. The only way that removing evil from the equation would exile free will would be if all decisions were binary and there were only 1 good choice and 1 bad. We know this isn't true. For example I may choose to adopt a child, help it find another home, help it's parents with support (moral and physical), do nothing, or kill it. Why would removing the last 2 options get rid of free will?

-Benhamine

What I had argued was that the removal of the capacity to act --for ANY one act, out of all the acts we could possibly do --effects 'free will' in regards to that act. If someone takes away your capacity to "kill the child," it is no different in regards to 'free will' than if they had taken away your capacity to "do nothing," or your capacity to "help its parents with support." If there's no chance to choose an option, then there's no 'free will' decision that could possibly be made in regards to that option.

 

[Azekual]

which makes God responsible for introducing us to evil.

He is also responsible for introducing us to good, which cancels out your argument.

Okay, under the presumed idea that somehow being pure makes the want to have sex less desirable, I would actually argue that Adam would have super semen and would thus would pass down super semen that would spread our population even faster... Either way, ill take a million. So at some point we were supposed to stop a million people from eating the fruit? How exactly do you expect we would've done that? Especially with that pesky snake tempting everyone that God managed to overlook.

I don't know. My idea operated under the premise that the Fall never happened, simply a thought experiment, so it doesn't have a method to prevent it.

Why isn't that okay for us on earth then? Why are you of the idea that freewill without the ability to do evil isn't freewill, but when applied to a heavenly realm that logic goes out the window?

Sin and, by extension, evil cannot exist in God's presence.

 

[Blackdog22]

He is also responsible for introducing us to good, which cancels out your argument.

Sin and, by extension, evil cannot exist in God's presence.

Right, so why did he introduce us to something that would remove us from his presence intentionally? This still sounds like a very twisted and sadistic being.

I still don't understand why making this earth like heaven would have any negative impact on free will. Are you ****** off about going to heaven because it will impede on your free will or can we agree that the argument that free will, without the option to do evil, would still be perfectly acceptable. Thus God introducing evil to give us free will makes no sense.

 

[Dan4reason]

Evil can only exist in sapient beings. Killing another animal for food is not evil, it's survival. Only a sapient being can understand moral codes and thus, can choose to be evil.

What I mean is that a benovolent God would not only stop people from being evil to each other but also stop suffering by natural causes. He might just help you avoid a slow painful death for example.




[/quote]Yes. In fact, if I was born elsewhere, I could have been an atheist (in fact I was one for many years). If they want to believe they can. No one is stopping them. [/quote]

I actually want to believe. I see the evidence to support for Christianity. But anyway, that is beside the point.

My real question is why would God decide your eternal fate by your actions in only one scenario when putting you in another scenarios would yield different results. Why not put us in scenarios that are most likely to help us improve ourselves and be saved? Why give some people harder situations in life than others? Isn't that an unfair test?


[/quote]Emotions tell you what to do and how to feel, but you can ignore then to some extent. Though you cannot control them. God planned it in theory, but I have no evidence to that claim.[/quote]

You can ignore them when you are aware that they are saying something wrong, and as you said, only to a limited extent. Emotions are a part of you, not something outside of you affecting your judgement. When your emotions change, you change. Fortunately we have a little control over what we feel over. While emotions are what give your life purpose, and happiness, they also strip us of some free will because we cannot completely choose what we feel. Why can't God give us emotions or something simmilar to it that not only has the benefits our emotions have but also give us more free will?




[/quote]If we were ignorant of Good and Evil, he very well could have. But we know of evil and thus acknowledge it as a choice. Thus he cannot remove it. [/quote]

From our insignifiant, puny, human perspective it appears that it is impossible to have free will without evil. I will admit that. However, that the fact that we cannot think of a way of making a perfectly good world that has free world doesn't mean there isn't a way. In fact, the fact that an omnipotent exist, means that there must be a way. Omnipotence is the ability to do all things. If God can do all things, then all things can possibly be done.

It is a fallacy to say that an omnipotent being can't do something. He is omnipotent. he can do anything.

 

[Splarnst]

I think the Problem of Evil disproves an omnimax deity. Of course, infinite and incompatible attributes are another but somewhat less interesting avenue to the same conclusion.

 

[Me Myself]

Epicurus said: God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

I suspect that he was right. Do you think he disproved God?

Well it would disprove a God to be all loving all powerful, but it doesn´t disprove gods that are not supposed to have both qualities.

As it has also pointed out, he could also be saying there is no evil, but most people won´t symphatize with that as there is a lot of crazy **** that hurts people in reali life.

 

[idav]

From our insignifiant, puny, human perspective it appears that it is impossible to have free will without evil. I will admit that. However, that the fact that we cannot think of a way of making a perfectly good world that has free world doesn't mean there isn't a way. In fact, the fact that an omnipotent exist, means that there must be a way. Omnipotence is the ability to do all things. If God can do all things, then all things can possibly be done.

It is a fallacy to say that an omnipotent being can't do something. He is omnipotent. he can do anything.

It isn't impossible to have free will without having evil. The only real reason I can think of that there is evil is because there is pain, suffering and death. Take those things away and one could do just about anything without ever really hurting anyone or yourself. Those things along with empathy keep us in check for the most part but obviously not all of us.

 

[Acim]

An all powerful being certainly would be able to choose whether or not to limit the power and wouldn't limit the being. The being wouldn't be all powerful if limiting his own power wasn't also an option.

Certainly. Cause, ya know, empirical evidence makes this very clear to us.

 

[waitasec]

i'm not so sure this argument proves anything other than the fact god is indifferent.
good an evil are relative terms after all....

i shot someone and i have a gun in my hand...

did i commit an evil act? it depends on the situation. i could have killed someone in self defense or i killed someone as a perpetrator. i could have been the perpetrator who was desperate because i needed to find cash to pay for my little childs medical bills.
as far as good is concerned that is relative too. i could have given a homeless person $5 and this person may have used my money to buy his overdose of heroine...
or i could have told my friend that she could stay with me while she figures out a way to leave her abusive husband, which enabled her to feel empowered only to be met with a lethal blow from him...

good and evil are concepts that are relative and not a constant.

in short this argument refutes any attribute we have labeled god as being a constant presence either in power, knowledge or intent but subjected to our understanding and that really doesn't add up to anything to write home about.