Did God Create Chaos?

[Ouroboros]

I thought struck me the other day. If there is a designer/creator God, where did chaos or randomness come from? Or does chaos not exist?

I think there are three scenarios.

1. Chaos and randomness is a natural thing, something beyond God (if there is a God or not)
2. Chaos and randomness is part of God's nature, not created, but something that's eternal/non-temporal/non-spatial like any of the other properties of God
3. God created chaos and randomness.

I'm curious which stand theists, creationists, and atheists take on this. Personally, I'm #1 or #1 if there is a creator/designer God, and not #3. And I have a feeling that any one answer would cause problems for the creationist views.

--edit

Based on Quints response, I'm adding a #4.

#4. Chaos and randomness doesn't really exist, it only seems to be that way to us, but in reality there's an underlying order and nothing is random (God or no God).

 

[Quintessence]

It seems to me that randomness, chaos and order are attributions projected onto reality by the beholder, not intrinsic qualities.

That aside, why wouldn't chaos and randomness be a god like everything else?

 

[Ouroboros]

It seems to me that randomness, chaos and order are attributions projected onto reality by the beholder, not intrinsic qualities.

You mean that there's an underlying order to it and it just seems to be chaos or random to us? In that case, true chaos or real randomness doesn't exist at all. So then perhaps I should add a #4. I'll do that right now.

That aside, why wouldn't chaos and randomness be a god like everything else?

That would basically fall under chaos and randomness being properties of God. Point #2.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I thought struck me the other day. If there is a designer/creator God, where did chaos or randomness come from? Or does chaos not exist?

I think there are three scenarios.

1. Chaos and randomness is a natural thing, something beyond God (if there is a God or not)
2. Chaos and randomness is part of God's nature, not created, but something that's eternal/non-temporal/non-spatial like any of the other properties of God
3. God created chaos and randomness.

I'm curious which stand theists, creationists, and atheists take on this. Personally, I'm #1 or #1 if there is a creator/designer God, and not #3. And I have a feeling that any one answer would cause problems for the creationist views.

--edit

Based on Quints response, I'm adding a #4.

#4. Chaos and randomness doesn't really exist, it only seems to be that way to us, but in reality there's an underlying order and nothing is random (God or no God).

I would say that everything is evolving consciousness. So consciousness expresses itself here physically. Where does that put me?
Even chaos has order. So is chaos actually chaos or is it something that is within a state of flux waiting to be expressed in some way? If this is part of the nature of God, and aspect, then what is it?

 

[Robert.Evans]

There are all sorts of chaos, but from a google search, this comes up, in short:

''the property of a complex system whose behaviour is so unpredictable as to appear random, owing to great sensitivity to small changes in conditions.''

My understanding, simply put, would be the first part.

 

[Ouroboros]

I would say that everything is evolving consciousness. So consciousness expresses itself here physically. Where does that put me?

Depends. Are you suggesting that consciousness and chaos are the same thing? That chaos is evolving?

Even chaos has order.

Then it would put you in #4, that chaos is a matter of perception and that there is no true chaos, randomness, or disorder. It only seems that way. I know about the mathematical view of ordered chaos, but what I'm looking at here is the form of chaos, randomness, disorder that is complete opposite to order.

So is chaos actually chaos or is it something that is within a state of flux waiting to be expressed in some way? If this is part of the nature of God, and aspect, then what is it?

If it's part of God, nature of God, then it's God's nature. In other word, this pure or true chaos (or disorder is probably the better word) is part of God and not created.

 

[Ouroboros]

There are all sorts of chaos, but from a google search, this comes up, in short:

''the property of a complex system whose behaviour is so unpredictable as to appear random, owing to great sensitivity to small changes in conditions.''

That's in #4. Chaos that seems to be disordered to us, but there's an underlying order.

My understanding, simply put, would be the first part.

Also, think of what it would do to ideas of determinism and indeterminism. I perhaps could throw in that this disorder/chaos/random I'm trying to pinpoint here is a completely indeterministic disorder. Call it true or pure chaos/disorder/random or something like that, meaning, the kind that doesn't have an underlying order or conditions.

If the world is deterministic, then this pure disorder doesn't exist at all.

 

[Robert.Evans]

To further this, as your not here at the moment, if all things must be expressed, then chaos or randomness has to be expressed also. It seems therefore, that chaos must exist; whether it ever becomes anything related to order is debatable, but chaos does eventually have patterns within it if it is given enough time to do so. That suggests parameters to the chaos in the first place, doesn't it?

 

[Ouroboros]

To further this, as your not here at the moment, if all things must be expressed, then chaos or randomness has to be expressed also. It seems therefore, that chaos must exist; whether it ever becomes anything related to order is debatable, but chaos does eventually have patterns within it if it is given enough time to do so. That suggests parameters to the chaos in the first place, doesn't it?

Which would mean that pure chaos doesn't exist but is deterministic.

Some ancient religions believed that Cosmos was created out of Chaos. Chaos was this pure disorder, while Cosmos was order. But if disorder is ordered and not truly disordered, then there never was any true disorder to begin with.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Depends. Are you suggesting that consciousness and chaos are the same thing? That chaos is evolving?

Possibly. Or is it child like and just unruly?

Then it would put you in #4, that chaos is a matter of perception and that there is no true chaos, randomness, or disorder. It only seems that way. I know about the mathematical view of ordered chaos, but what I'm looking at here is the form of chaos, randomness, disorder that is complete opposite to order.


If it's part of God, nature of God, then it's God's nature. In other word, this pure or true chaos (or disorder is probably the better word) is part of God and not created.

I think all things come from Source before we have the expression called ''God''. So conceptually, I can see it within Source, but it would be actualised within God... so we shall say yes it is part of his nature. But that consciousness which is expressed as chaos to me is the same consciousness that we are.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Which would mean that pure chaos doesn't exist but is deterministic.

Some ancient religions believed that Cosmos was created out of Chaos. Chaos was this pure disorder, while Cosmos was order. But if disorder is ordered and not truly disordered, then there never was any true disorder to begin with.

I think it exists, but it is still within its own parenthesis.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I thought struck me the other day. If there is a designer/creator God, where did chaos or randomness come from? Or does chaos not exist?

I think there are three scenarios.

1. Chaos and randomness is a natural thing, something beyond God (if there is a God or not)
2. Chaos and randomness is part of God's nature, not created, but something that's eternal/non-temporal/non-spatial like any of the other properties of God
3. God created chaos and randomness.

I'm curious which stand theists, creationists, and atheists take on this. Personally, I'm #1 or #1 if there is a creator/designer God, and not #3. And I have a feeling that any one answer would cause problems for the creationist views.

--edit

Based on Quints response, I'm adding a #4.

#4. Chaos and randomness doesn't really exist, it only seems to be that way to us, but in reality there's an underlying order and nothing is random (God or no God).

I think I could agree in part, with all 4 answers, but not fully with any of them

 

[`mud]

Although the Cosmos is totally chaotic,
the slight difference between miracles and catastrophes,
is in the observance of the viewer,
and what one perceives what God is ?
No one really knows !
As in the absence of presence.
~
'mud

 

[Quintessence]

You mean that there's an underlying order to it and it just seems to be chaos or random to us? In that case, true chaos or real randomness doesn't exist at all. So then perhaps I should add a #4. I'll do that right now.

Not quite, though this is certainly another option.

I do not mean to suggest there's an underlying order any more than I mean to suggest there's an underlying chaos. I mean to suggest that our perception of something as ordered or random is exactly that: a perception. An attribution. A projection. It is the beholder that is seeing (or not seeing) patterns in reality. Reality simply is what it is.

Put another way, I'm challenging this dualistic notion that reality can be divided up into order and chaos. I don't believe that to be the case, as terms like "order" and "chaos" are a construct relative to how the beholder is perceiving things. I don't know what you mean by "order" and "chaos." What makes something orderly as opposed to chaotic and vice versa? Why do we perceive it that way? I think that how we label things as being ordered or chaotic says an awful lot more about humans than it does about the nature of reality.

 

[nazz]

I thought struck me the other day. If there is a designer/creator God, where did chaos or randomness come from? Or does chaos not exist?

I think there are three scenarios.

1. Chaos and randomness is a natural thing, something beyond God (if there is a God or not)
2. Chaos and randomness is part of God's nature, not created, but something that's eternal/non-temporal/non-spatial like any of the other properties of God
3. God created chaos and randomness.

I'm curious which stand theists, creationists, and atheists take on this. Personally, I'm #1 or #1 if there is a creator/designer God, and not #3. And I have a feeling that any one answer would cause problems for the creationist views.

--edit

Based on Quints response, I'm adding a #4.

#4. Chaos and randomness doesn't really exist, it only seems to be that way to us, but in reality there's an underlying order and nothing is random (God or no God).

I'm afraid I have to add yet another option: God created all things which includes beings that create chaos. As for randomness I'm not sure I believe that really exists.

 

[Nakosis]

It seems to me that randomness, chaos and order are attributions projected onto reality by the beholder, not intrinsic qualities.

That aside, why wouldn't chaos and randomness be a god like everything else?

Kind of how I see it. Order and chaos being opposites, they are polar dualistic thinking. They exist to us because we perceive a contrast.

The truth I suspect is a state of non-self where order and chaos have no meaning.

Therefore what we perceive as order and chaos is subjective. In order we can create the perception of chaos and in chaos the perception of order.

I assume perception is an illusion but without perception what can be known?

 

[Ouroboros]

Not quite, though this is certainly another option.

I do not mean to suggest there's an underlying order any more than I mean to suggest there's an underlying chaos. I mean to suggest that our perception of something as ordered or random is exactly that: a perception. An attribution. A projection. It is the beholder that is seeing (or not seeing) patterns in reality. Reality simply is what it is.

Basically, you're suggesting that reality is neither. I think I understand.

Put another way, I'm challenging this dualistic notion that reality can be divided up into order and chaos. I don't believe that to be the case, as terms like "order" and "chaos" are a construct relative to how the beholder is perceiving things. I don't know what you mean by "order" and "chaos." What makes something orderly as opposed to chaotic and vice versa? Why do we perceive it that way? I think that how we label things as being ordered or chaotic says an awful lot more about humans than it does about the nature of reality.

I think I can agree with you.

 

[Ouroboros]

I'm afraid I have to add yet another option: God created all things which includes beings that create chaos.

That would be option #3. Or if we rewrite the option as "Every thing that has a beginning ultimately has God as it's ultimate beginning."

If God creates a robot that creates a factory that creates a begin that creates chaos, all of it must be according to God's design if God is the creator, i.e. chaos, disorder, and randomness would then have to have their roots in God.

As for randomness I'm not sure I believe that really exists.

Real chaos would demonstrate real randomness. They would exist within the same kind'a sphere of ideas.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Since I believe God is life, I'd say number 4.

Number one, it is natural that events and things happen without our control; but, it is only in our perspective that we think it's random... life has it's order just as the sun rises and sets and the moon that goes through its phases. It wouldn't be something beyond God, since life is God itself.

Number two slides nicely unto "God is life" because there is no creation when He is all that exists.

I'd take out three completely.

Number four, whatever underlines the order of things, I don't know. I do know because I am alive, that there is something that humans cant replicate but personally, I would not associate or personify it as a being.

I thought struck me the other day. If there is a designer/creator God, where did chaos or randomness come from? Or does chaos not exist?

1. Chaos and randomness is a natural thing, something beyond God (if there is a God or not)
2. Chaos and randomness is part of God's nature, not created, but something that's eternal/non-temporal/non-spatial like any of the other properties of God
3. God created chaos and randomness.
4. That underlining reality that keeps things in order,

I'm curious which stand theists, creationists, and atheists take on this. Personally, I'm #1 or #1 if there is a creator/designer God, and not #3. And I have a feeling that any one answer would cause problems for the creationist views.

--edit

Based on Quints response, I'm adding a #4.

#4. Chaos and randomness doesn't really exist, it only seems to be that way to us, but in reality there's an underlying order and nothing is random (God or no God).

 

[nazz]

That would be option #3. Or if we rewrite the option as "Every thing that has a beginning ultimately has God as it's ultimate beginning."

If God creates a robot that creates a factory that creates a begin that creates chaos, all of it must be according to God's design if God is the creator, i.e. chaos, disorder, and randomness would then have to have their roots in God.

Yes, all originates with God and is an expression of God but I don't see it as a "plan" per se. Just a natural unfoldment. Inevitable more or less.

Real chaos would demonstrate real randomness. They would exist within the same kind'a sphere of ideas.

Random suggests something is without causation and not convinced something like that exists.