Did God Create Chaos?

[Ouroboros]

While your view (or your categorization of viewpoints) may be perfectly sound, it's hard to tell given that your three options rely fundamentally upon terms that are either non-scientific and/or have multiple definitions.

Agree.

Chaos, for example, in the "chaos theory" sense is mainly a popular concept. Randomness is far worse, as even within a scientific field there exists disagreements as to what "randomness" is.

Which makes it even harder to discuss.

I have no perfect or complete definition of what I'm thinking of. I'm thinking of the concepts and are just trying to find the correct terms to relate to these thoughts.

Everything started with the reflection of how Creationists (some of them, not all) argue that the world is ordered and that's why there's a God. Well, if the ordered world proves that God exists, then there must be something that is non-ordered, and I'm not sure to call that concept chaos, randomness, disorder, or something else. Put it this way, if the world is ordered and somehow can recognize it as such, then the non-order must be its opposite where order is lacking.

It would be helpful, then, if you define what you mean by these terms.

I'm trying my best.

Another thing to remember, I'm discussing this just as an exploration of these thoughts, not to prove anything. Just an FYI.

 

[Ouroboros]

God created it indirectly through free will.

Ok. So in your view, God is the ultimate source of it. The proof of God's existence perhaps isn't order (being part of God's nature), but rather that non-order exists in the form of free will?

I never argued for "intelligent design." But I did argue for "creative intelligence" or "creativity." Randomness (or spontaneity) is an important component of the creative process.

I can accept that.

I do too think that there must be some kind of balance between order and non-order for things to exist. It's almost like it's a constant battle between two forces, one to organize and one to break things up.

 

[Ouroboros]

Good! It could well be its ''high complexity'' which gives the illusion of disorder to us. But they do say that chaos eventually has patterns within it, so is it truly random, truly chaotic.

Right. Chaos in chaos theory has patterns, structure, and order, so I think that chaos might be too confusing to use as a word in this discussion.

I just came up with the word "non-order," in hopes of finding a better word to convey the meaning.

I still kinda think that there is something that is totally chaotic. But with that I have to put a caveat, and that is, it must have boundaries (whatever they might be), otherwise, how is what it is? How can it be anything or anywhere if there are no boundaires to define it? And if there is, it can only be chaotic up to a point. I guess that takes us back to your first answer

I think I agree. As I posted to Gambit above, there seems to be a balance between order and non-order for things to come about. I'd say that perhaps "life" is what falls between there?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Another thing to remember, I'm discussing this just as an exploration of these thoughts, not to prove anything. Just an FYI.

Oh I understand. And similarly (just and FYI) my comments are my own ways to try to explore, not criticize (well not your post, at least)

 

[Ouroboros]

Oh I understand. And similarly (just and FYI) my comments are my own ways to try to explore, not criticize (well not your post, at least)

I knew you would understand that, and I didn't take your comments the wrong way. I just felt I had to make sure it was stated, so we're both on the same level.

One thing that I was thinking of earlier was an algorithm I learned 30 years ago (or so) to generate random numbers. It's an extremely simple one, but that was what we had to work with using calculators like TI-55 (first version with lamps, not LED or LCD). 24 programming steps, I think it was. Anyway, if I recall correctly, it was called 142857 algorithm, simply because you took your seed number, multiplied with 142857, took the fraction of the result, and voilá, that was your new seed number. ... writing this made me long for my old first calculator again. I think I'm going to buy one online. Oh, I made a hi-lo guessing game on it.

Today, to create a random number generator, you need to add CPU timers, ethernet traffic, or whatever else that can to make it as random as possible, but still, it's just very complex/advanced level of algorithms. I wonder, is the distribution of photons/electrons in a double-slit experiment random (even if its statistically distributed, is it random)? Or perhaps the individual "hits" (can't remember what it's called, highlight, yada) based on some higher level of mathematical thing? (Sorry for incoherence, on my second beer here.)

 

[Willamena]

4. Chaos and randomness doesn't really exist, it only seems to be that way to us, but in reality there's an underlying order and nothing is random (God or no God).

...or ordered.
Bravo.
Chaos and order co-create.

Principia Discordia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ouroboros]

Chaos and order co-create.

Which reminds me, in the ancient religions at the time of Old Testament, they had the idea of "God" fighting Yam (I think it was), a sea monster that symbolized disorder and chaos (if I understand it right). And I think Behemot was another name for it.

I wonder if the spirit floating over the void is something similar. Either the spirit or the void was symbols for the chaotic, non-ordered existence, which then El changed.

 

[Gambit]

I wonder, is the distribution of photons/electrons in a double-slit experiment random (even if its statistically distributed, is it random)? Or perhaps the individual "hits" (can't remember what it's called, highlight, yada) based on some higher level of mathematical thing? (Sorry for incoherence, on my second beer here.)

According to the Copenhagen or standard interpretation, quantum fluctuations are truly random.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

According to the Copenhagen or standard interpretation, quantum fluctuations are truly random.

1) Quantum fluctuations are not truly random.
2) The orthodox interpretation (and the Copenhagen interpretation it is based on) concerns only quantum mechanics, not quantum physics (e.g., the quantum field theories where such fluctuations matter)
3) The orthodox interpretation of QM is that it is irreducibly statistical. Were it "truly random" then it couldn't be used. Theories, models, and so forth in physics are (as ideally in all sciences) not so much explanatory as predictive. That is, when we have a theory about physical processes or phenomena, that theory should tell us how the phenomena behave in such a way as to be able to predict what their outcomes will be. A theory in physics that posits anything is "truly random" is essentially saying "we have a theory about physical systems that tells us nothing, is useless, and could be formulated in infinitely many other equally useless ways."

This is why definitions of random matter. "Random" in quantum physics means "probabilistic" and is defined in contrast to the ontological determinism of classical physics.

Whenever you see something like a model of a system or a phenomenon described as random and defined by one or more equations, it isn't "truly random" as we have a mathematical model telling us that given certain input, the values of certain parameters, initial conditions, etc., we can exactly determine the evolution of the system over time. The wave-function or state-vector of quantum mechanics, for example, is completely deterministic, and defines the dynamical behavior of all quantum systems. However, quantum mechanics is indeterministic, because the "system" in quantum mechanics has no physical meaning and, according to the standard interpretation, has no possible physical meaning.

Think of it this way: as theories and models within physics are defined by equations, how would you formulate such a theory or model mathematically such that is "truly random"? To the extent this is possible, it means that there are infinitely many equally valid but not equivalent alternatives.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I just think that some part of the lower divine mind is not in order and more chaotic and is what we see here as chaos or randomness. It has to be expressed if it exists.

So where do you believe this "lower divine mind" sits? It sounds a bit Hindu really.

 

[Gaw Thaga]

Did God create Chaos?
Yes he is. He created not only Chaos but also everything. But that God is the one created by Human.

Most are caused by living being, especially by human. Human's greedy, hatred, anger, ignorance, and so on. Another reason is natural cause that we can't avoid.

 

[Robert Vincelette]

I thought struck me the other day. If there is a designer/creator God, where did chaos or randomness come from? Or does chaos not exist?

I think there are three scenarios.

1. Chaos and randomness is a natural thing, something beyond God (if there is a God or not)
2. Chaos and randomness is part of God's nature, not created, but something that's eternal/non-temporal/non-spatial like any of the other properties of God
3. God created chaos and randomness.

I'm curious which stand theists, creationists, and atheists take on this. Personally, I'm #1 or #1 if there is a creator/designer God, and not #3. And I have a feeling that any one answer would cause problems for the creationist views.

--edit

Based on Quints response, I'm adding a #4.

#4. Chaos and randomness doesn't really exist, it only seems to be that way to us, but in reality there's an underlying order and nothing is random (God or no God).

Randomness, which manifests itself in Heisenberg indeterminacy of exactly what electrons in the neural chemical actions of our consciousness is what makes a measure of free will possible that that endows us with intrinsic dignity and responsibility that goes with it. This could be a part of God's design.

 

[J Ciresoli]

Every religion has some form of dualism. In Christianity, for example, the deity of the OT states plainly the he creates evil in the AKJV and in the NIV, NASB, MEV, CEB etc. he says that he creates calamity (syn. chaos). This can be found in Isaiah 45:7.

 

[Ouroboros]

Several new posters. Cool to see you guys, and welcome to the site.

Here's something more to consider. If randomness/chaos/disorder or non-order, whatever we'd call it, is related to free will, and that it was created or designed, does this mean God had to created it before God had free will himself, or does God have no free will?

 

[Robert Vincelette]

Several new posters. Cool to see you guys, and welcome to the site.

Here's something more to consider. If randomness/chaos/disorder or non-order, whatever we'd call it, is related to free will, and that it was created or designed, does this mean God had to created it before God had free will himself, or does God have no free will?

We do not even know if God, assuming such a thing we cannot prove, is confined to time, or if within eternity time is meaningless and causes are temporal.

 

[Ouroboros]

Every religion has some form of dualism. In Christianity, for example, the deity of the OT states plainly the he creates evil in the AKJV and in the NIV, NASB, MEV, CEB etc. he says that he creates calamity (syn. chaos). This can be found in Isaiah 45:7.

I didn't think of that verse, and it's a good addition to the discussion.

I'm going to explore this a little, but going to try to make it short.

Some people I've talked to in the past argued that sin or evil were necessary for God to create because within them, we couldn't have a free will to choose between good and evil, sin and righteousness.

In our discussion here, it seems like non-order is necessary for free will.

The word in Isaiah can be translated calamity or evil, so there's already a correlation made there between non-order and evil.

So perhaps that's the best definition of evil and sin, chaos. Chaos, non-order, disorder, randomness, all those things are sin and evil (according to religion), which means order (and obedience) are the righteousness and good things. Now I can see why the three big religions hammer so hard on obedience.

But still, after all that, God is the source of disorder, sin, and evil, since he had to create it for free will to exist. He had to give it to himself first. A simpler way though would probably be to consider that order and disorder always existed within God and never had to be created.

 

[Ouroboros]

We do not even know if God, assuming such a thing we cannot prove, is confined to time, or if within eternity time is meaningless and causes are temporal.

Sure. So you're suggesting that non-temporality can have free will without non-order. But temporality requires the balance between order and disorder to produce free will.

I keep on thinking that order and non-order are non-temporal to begin with and never had to be created.

--edit

And yes, causality is temporal in my view too. Or perhaps temporality is the emergent property of causality itself. Something causing this to happen, there's a span of this-happened-before-that which produces time. Space is also needed, and energy.

 

[wizanda]

Chaos exists without order.

 

[idea]

I think God is cleaning up a mess He did not make. The original Hebrew is more in line with organizing chaos, than making something out of nothing.

Everything is eternal without beginning and without end - we say we are "created" by God if we allow God to change us. It does not mean God brought us into existence, it just means He changed us...

If we had a beginning, we would not have free will, because everything we did could be traced back to how we were created. Only eternal uncreated entities can have free will. No beginning = independent entities, uncaused entities = our own fee will.

 

[idea]

Chaos exists without order.

so up exists without down, and right exists without left? Define chaos - I don't think you can define it without order to compare it to.