Did God Create Chaos?

[Ouroboros]

Yes, all originates with God and is an expression of God but I don't see it as a "plan" per se. Just a natural unfoldment. Inevitable more or less.

A natural God then.

Random suggests something is without causation and not convinced something like that exists.

That's the random or chaos I'm talking about. I'm not saying that it exists, simply because I don't know, but if it does, then it either is created by an ordered God (creationist?), or it's part of God's nature (theist?), or it's natural as is (atheist?).

 

[Gambit]

I thought struck me the other day. If there is a designer/creator God, where did chaos or randomness come from? Or does chaos not exist?.

I addressed this in my thread entitled "The Argument "For" and "Against" Creative Intelligence (Human or Divine)" which is located on the "Evolution vs. Creationism" forum.

 

[Ouroboros]

I addressed this in my thread entitled "The Argument "For" and "Against" Creative Intelligence (Human or Divine)" which is located on the "Evolution vs. Creationism" forum.

I haven't seen that thread until now.

My point isn't really about intelligent design, but about disorder. If disorder truly exists, where did it come from? Based on your OP, you take the stance that it's just a matter of perspective, i.e. order and disorder is merely how we see thing. It's an illusion in other words.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I haven't seen that thread until now.

My point isn't really about intelligent design, but about disorder. If disorder truly exists, where did it come from? Based on your OP, you take the stance that it's just a matter of perspective, i.e. order and disorder is merely how we see thing. It's an illusion in other words.

But I say that comes back to what I have already said. If all things come from higher-consciousness, then what we view as chaos is undecided thought, non constituted, not realised, not actualised. It is the child of the adult mind, the part that runs randomly around. It is part of everything.
Not all thought comes to something; so if what we see is consciousness, then this would seem to be consciousness that is not ordered.

 

[Thief]

I see chaos as a function of reality.
God created reality.

 

[Ouroboros]

But I say that comes back to what I have already said. If all things come from higher-consciousness, then what we view as chaos is undecided thought, non constituted, not realised, not actualised. It is the child of the adult mind, the part that runs randomly around. It is part of everything.
Not all thought comes to something; so if what we see is consciousness, then this would seem to be consciousness that is not ordered.

Which means that order v disorder is a matter of perspective, of the consciousness. That there's no real distinction between them except for in the mind.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Which means that order v disorder is a matter of perspective, of the consciousness. That there's no real distinction between them except for in the mind.

Within our mind's or God's? We see it as a distinction, as we see many things. But what actually is it? I think that was what you were asking. I think it reflects what is conceptual within the mind of God and is presented to us as randomness.

 

[Ouroboros]

Within our mind's or God's?

Our minds.

If order-disorder is really about an unfolding of ordered complexity, and not really truly disorder (randomness), then everything is always ordered, however complex it is, which means that when we think of something disordered, it's merely an illusion of disorder to us because of its high complexity.

We see it as a distinction, as we see many things. But what actually is it?

Agree. What is it? What is chaos? What is disorder? Is it not just our inability to see the total pattern?

I think that was what you were asking. I think it reflects what is conceptual within the mind of God and is presented to us as randomness.

Which means randomness doesn't exist. Everything is deterministic and everything is in reality ordered, only to different levels of intricacy which creates the illusion of randomness and disorder to us.

 

[Gambit]

My point isn't really about intelligent design, but about disorder. If disorder truly exists, where did it come from? Based on your OP, you take the stance that it's just a matter of perspective, i.e. order and disorder is merely how we see thing. It's an illusion in other words.

I have already explained the source of disorder or chaos in my other thread. God has endowed each creature with free will, which entails some element of randomness or spontaneity.

 

[Ouroboros]

I have already explained the source of disorder or chaos in my other thread. God has endowed each creature with free will, which entails some element of randomness or spontaneity.

Ah. Well, then it means randomness and spontaneity was created by God, in your view. Yes?

What I was trying to do in this thread was to explore and investigate these properties, not argue for or against either one or use them in a discussion for or against God. I was just interested in the views of randomness, chaos, disorder, etc and their source. Your thread was more about how it applies to or fits with intelligent design. Personally, I think either view cause problems for intelligent design, but that's not what my aim is for here.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

1. Chaos and randomness is a natural thing, something beyond God (if there is a God or not)
2. Chaos and randomness is part of God's nature, not created, but something that's eternal/non-temporal/non-spatial like any of the other properties of God
3. God created chaos and randomness.

While your view (or your categorization of viewpoints) may be perfectly sound, it's hard to tell given that your three options rely fundamentally upon terms that are either non-scientific and/or have multiple definitions. Chaos, for example, in the "chaos theory" sense is mainly a popular concept. Randomness is far worse, as even within a scientific field there exists disagreements as to what "randomness" is.

It would be helpful, then, if you define what you mean by these terms.

 

[Gambit]

Ah. Well, then it means randomness and spontaneity was created by God, in your view. Yes?

God created it indirectly through free will.

What I was trying to do in this thread was to explore and investigate these properties, not argue for or against either one or use them in a discussion for or against God. I was just interested in the views of randomness, chaos, disorder, etc and their source. Your thread was more about how it applies to or fits with intelligent design. Personally, I think either view cause problems for intelligent design, but that's not what my aim is for here.

I never argued for "intelligent design." But I did argue for "creative intelligence" or "creativity." Randomness (or spontaneity) is an important component of the creative process.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Randomness (or spontaneity) is an important component of the creative process.

You have neither here nor in other posts supplied a definition of randomness that you relate to the definitions used by those who use this concept rather than rely on a dictionary.

 

[Gambit]

You have neither here nor in other posts supplied a definition of randomness that you relate to the definitions used by those who use this concept rather than rely on a dictionary.

This is unintelligible.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

This is unintelligible.

I'll dumb it down for you. "Randomness", as used by mathematicians, scientists, and even in common parlance, does not have a singular definition. You have a tendency to refer to technical terms you don't understand but attempt to use them anyway to make a technical argument. Here, you use "randomness" to make claims regarding religions and/or theology. However, you neither define how you are using the term nor in what ways your usage conflicts with and/or is superior to the multiple senses of the term as it is used in e.g. computability theory, statistical mechanics, probability theory, computational sciences, the study of complex systems, and so on

Basically, you use terms you don't understand to make arguments that rest upon these misunderstandings.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I would say that everything is evolving consciousness.

So consciousness is chaotic too then?

 

[Gambit]

Basically, you use terms you don't understand to make arguments that rest upon these misunderstandings.

I understand how I employed the term. The problem is that you don't understand how I employed the term. And reason why you don't understand how I employed the term is because you don't have a basic understanding how the free will debate is framed in philosophical terms.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I understand how I employed the term. The problem is that you don't understand how I employed the term.

Perhaps the problem is that @LegionOnomaMoi did not realize that your use of certain terms was intended to demonstrate/model chaos and randomness rather than explicate these things.

 

[Robert.Evans]

So consciousness is chaotic too then?

Not all of it. I just think that some part of the lower divine mind is not in order and more chaotic and is what we see here as chaos or randomness. It has to be expressed if it exists.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Our minds.

If order-disorder is really about an unfolding of ordered complexity, and not really truly disorder (randomness), then everything is always ordered, however complex it is, which means that when we think of something disordered, it's merely an illusion of disorder to us because of its high complexity.

Good! It could well be its ''high complexity'' which gives the illusion of disorder to us. But they do say that chaos eventually has patterns within it, so is it truly random, truly chaotic.

Agree. What is it? What is chaos? What is disorder? Is it not just our inability to see the total pattern?


Which means randomness doesn't exist. Everything is deterministic and everything is in reality ordered, only to different levels of intricacy which creates the illusion of randomness and disorder to us.

I still kinda think that there is something that is totally chaotic. But with that I have to put a caveat, and that is, it must have boundaries (whatever they might be), otherwise, how is what it is? How can it be anything or anywhere if there are no boundaires to define it? And if there is, it can only be chaotic up to a point. I guess that takes us back to your first answer