Did God create evil?

[Ouroboros]

I'm sorry I should've been clear in the beginning when I posted this thread...I really only wanted comments from people who actually believe in God; not from those who try to prove he doesn't exist or who aren't sure if he exists or not (aka sophisticated and educated people).

I'm still learning about how this forum works, but my understanding is that if that's what you wanted to do, then you should have started the thread under
"Same Faith Debates" instead. This "General Religious Debates" has a black label, not colored (blue, green, purple, or something like that), so it's open to everyone.

My point throughout this thread was not that God doesn't exist, but that if there is a God, that God encompasses all existing things, including good and evil. God is the scale, the pendulum, the balance, the pivot, all of it, and not just one side of the weight. God is not just this but not that. God is not just that but not this. God is both this and that.

 

[InChrist]

But what is defined as "the goodness of God" look at some of the terrible things God does from a human perspective out of "goodness" in the bible.

Have you considered the very real possibility that the human perspective is finite making it limited and lacking complete information, therefore resulting in the inability to make correct judgments? Could it not be that because God is infinite and has complete knowledge of any given situation that what you finitely perceive as something "terrible" done by God, may actually have been done with good reason based on His eternal wisdom and complete knowledge?

For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil. Ecclesiastes 12:14

Meister Eckhart has this covered. If God was alone (which he technically is) there would be (and is) no good or evil. God is best. God simply is.

[/quote]

You are free to base your thoughts about God on the philosophy of Meister Eckhart, but I prefer to trust the revealed word of God in the scriptures and through this I see and know the goodness of God.

 

[Hufflechuff]

Have you considered the very real possibility that the human perspective is finite making it limited and lacking complete information, therefore resulting in the inability to make correct judgments? Could it not be that because God is infinite and has complete knowledge of any given situation that what you finitely perceive as something "terrible" done by God, may actually have been done with good reason based on His eternal wisdom and complete knowledge?

For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil. Ecclesiastes 12:14

You are free to base your thoughts about God on the philosophy of Meister Eckhart, but I prefer to trust the revealed word of God in the scriptures and through this I see and know the goodness of God.

This argument doesn't work because, by the same token, it could be that something which you finitely perceive as 'good' done by God could actually have been done with evil intent based on His eternal wisdom and complete knowledge. If we lack the ability to make correct judgements that applies to theists too. You could never know God's infinite mind so do not know his motives either. Based on this stance there is no more proof that God is good than that he is evil.

 

[InChrist]

This argument doesn't work because, by the same token, it could be that something which you finitely perceive as 'good' done by God could actually have been done with evil intent based on His eternal wisdom and complete knowledge. If we lack the ability to make correct judgements that applies to theists too. You could never know God's infinite mind so do not know his motives either. Based on this stance there is no more proof that God is good than that he is evil.

You may have a point, except that because human knowledge is finite and limited there are certain things, many things actually, that I believe we would have no way of ever knowing or understanding were it not for God's direct communication telling us about such things. I believe He has done so through the revelation of the biblical scriptures. This revelation includes information concerning the holiness, righteousness, goodness, and justice of God and the reality that He is the only One who is in a position to accurately determine good or evil. Your position and my position is to trust the God who created us and has shown Himself to be good in so many ways, IMO.

Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good; Blessed is the man who trusts in Him!
Psalm 34:8

 

[Avoice]

This question came to me while I watched an Anime movie with my husband on Netflix called "Dante's Inferno". The storyline is a crazy one. There's a lot of Greek mythology mixed in with Christianity. However, towards the end of the movie, a character said to be "Satan, Lucifer, or the Devil" said something which just didn't feel right (maybe because it was coming from a character said to be Satan); He basically said God created evil. Then my husband who is Muslim agreed. I can agree that God created everything in existence but I believe "evil" is something God Knows of because anything that goes against God's will is considered to be a sin or evil. Satan, the fallen angels and mankind came to know sin only after God gave the free will or the choice to choose. God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge between good and evil. Did Eve know she was committing an evil act when she ate from the tree? Is a sin not considered a sin just because we don't know it's evil? A sin is a sin. why? because when we make a choice inspired by our own desires or based on ideas that did not come from God, It will produce a negative outcome. I believe, God allows us to have a free will so we can learn the difference between good and evil. An evil act is based on intentions and although sometimes we think our intentions are good, God knows better than we do.
This led me to another question. Why has God displayed violence but tells us to refrain from violence? I believe it's because only God can judge and is the only just Judge which means that only he can apply justice in the way he deems necessary. unfortunately, sometimes his judgement requires some to pay with their lives. It is because mankind has placed so much judgement on one another, that this world is in chaos. Micah 7:2-4, Matthew 7:1-3

You bring up 2 types of evil here. Man made ( violation of the commandments) and that which God brings on man.

The Isaiah 45:7 evil that God creates is as follows in Strong's Hebrew Dictionary:

H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

Man did not consider nakedness "evil" until he had stolen the fruit of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil or bad. This sort of made much more than violation of the commandment not to steal - evil.

 

[Avoice]

This Hebrew word râ‛âh

(Strong's H7451 translated in some versions as evil in Isaiah 45:7 has various definitions, one being calamity. Calamity more properly fits the context showing God's judgment upon sin. This verse in no way refers to moral evil or gives any indication that God created moral evil, which is impossible, because:

1.There exists no unrighteousness in God's character and He can do no moral evil.

"The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He. Deuteronomy 32:4

"Now then let the fear of the LORD be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the LORD our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe." 2 Chronicles. 19;7

"Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. Job 34;10

For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You. Psalm 5:4

To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him. Psalm 92;15

2. Moral evil is the absence of moral good and occurs apart from the goodness of God, when one chooses to sin and commit evil.

Thus says the LORD, "What injustice did your fathers find in Me, That they went far from Me And walked after emptiness and became empty? Jeremiah 2:5

Perversity is in his heart, He devises evil continually, He sows discord.Proverbs 6:!0

The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate.Proverbs 8:13

The face of the Lord is against those who do evil, To cut off the remembrance of them from the earth. Psalm 34:16

Well put.

 

[Avoice]

Nobody ever quotes about the "evil"
in Jeremiah 24. Why not?

Jeremiah 24 is a joke correct? Talking about the "naughty" and "evil" figs. God created them so it is written, so it is true?
AHHH HA HA HA HA LOL LOL

What are you talking about? A vision, given Jeremiah so he could warn Judah?

What evil figs did God create here? Are not the Evil Figs those who have followed foreign gods and fed their children to Molech?

 

[Tbone]

Did God create evil?

No but He allows freedom and some chose to do evil with their freedom.

 

[Hufflechuff]

You may have a point, except that because human knowledge is finite and limited there are certain things, many things actually, that I believe we would have no way of ever knowing or understanding were it not for God's direct communication telling us about such things. I believe He has done so through the revelation of the biblical scriptures. This revelation includes information concerning the holiness, righteousness, goodness, and justice of God and the reality that He is the only One who is in a position to accurately determine good or evil. Your position and my position is to trust the God who created us and has shown Himself to be good in so many ways, IMO.

Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good; Blessed is the man who trusts in Him!
Psalm 34:8

No, the argument still falls because you have now simply moved to a circular proposition. To quote the wonderful Tim Minchin "I know the Good Book's good because the Good Book says it's good / I know the Good Book knows it's good because a really good book would". We cannot take the claimed word of God as the only proof that he is good.
You said that what appears to us to be evil may actually be good, in the long run of which we are ignorant. God then, in such an instance, has not shown himself to be good. There is no way to determine whether it is good in the long run, and so the argument falls. That you choose to believe that something with the appearance of evil is not what it appears is your choice, but it is not based on any logical progression, and it tells us nothing of God not being the creator of evil.
By extension, it can be argued that there is no such thing as evil, only what appears to be evil - but is actually just another expression of God's infinite goodness. To say then that evil is only a separation from God is not something we could ever determine - a murderer need only say "God told me to do it" (such as with Christopher Turgeon and The Gatekeepers) and we would have no recourse to find him guilty, because no matter how evil something appears to us in our ignorance, it may still be good in the long-run.
This is, of course, no way to live.

 

[no-body]

Have you considered the very real possibility that the human perspective is finite making it limited and lacking complete information, therefore resulting in the inability to make correct judgments? Could it not be that because God is infinite and has complete knowledge of any given situation that what you finitely perceive as something "terrible" done by God, may actually have been done with good reason based on His eternal wisdom and complete knowledge?

For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil. Ecclesiastes 12:14

So God is beyond good and evil but still only good? This the problem with a strict biblical literal interpretation, you have to shut off your brain and spout illogical nonsense.

You are free to base your thoughts about God on the philosophy of Meister Eckhart, but I prefer to trust the revealed word of God in the scriptures and through this I see and know the goodness of God.

Meister Eckhart is doing the same thing you are, looking at scripture and interpreting it.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Well put.

Can you acknowledge that a contradiction occurs here?

If not, explain why God created the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, knowing full and well what would happen as a result.

 

[InChrist]

No, the argument still falls because you have now simply moved to a circular proposition. To quote the wonderful Tim Minchin "I know the Good Book's good because the Good Book says it's good / I know the Good Book knows it's good because a really good book would". We cannot take the claimed word of God as the only proof that he is good.
You said that what appears to us to be evil may actually be good, in the long run of which we are ignorant. God then, in such an instance, has not shown himself to be good. There is no way to determine whether it is good in the long run, and so the argument falls. That you choose to believe that something with the appearance of evil is not what it appears is your choice, but it is not based on any logical progression, and it tells us nothing of God not being the creator of evil.
By extension, it can be argued that there is no such thing as evil, only what appears to be evil - but is actually just another expression of God's infinite goodness. To say then that evil is only a separation from God is not something we could ever determine - a murderer need only say "God told me to do it" (such as with Christopher Turgeon and The Gatekeepers) and we would have no recourse to find him guilty, because no matter how evil something appears to us in our ignorance, it may still be good in the long-run.
This is, of course, no way to live.

Except that God has given humans a conscience and has revealed enough in the scriptures so that we are without excuse to know whether certain behaviors are evil and wrong, such as , "You shall not murder". So someone claiming God told them to murder is already demonstrating they are separated from God, His revealed standard of right and wrong, and acting outside of His will.

 

[InChrist]

Can you acknowledge that a contradiction occurs here?

If not, explain why God created the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, knowing full and well what would happen as a result.

Yes,God knew full well what would happen, that is the reason a Savior was planned before the foundation of the world. Although, God knew humans would make wrong choices, there is no contradiction because God's goal was to create beings with freewill.

 

[Ouroboros]

Except that God has given humans a conscious and has revealed enough in the scriptures so that we are without excuse to know whether certain behaviors are evil and wrong,

Human conscience (not conscious, means something else) has surpassed the old book. Slavery, treatment of women (rape), dietary laws, and much more, are under different scrutiny and consideration in our modern world. Humanity's morality is beyond the old testament.

such as , "You shall not murder".

That law existed in Sumerian culture before Judaism. Enlin is the most high God then and the source of morality?

So someone claiming God told them to murder is already demonstrating they are separated from God, His revealed standard of right and wrong, and acting outside of His will.

Funny thing... even non-Christians and on-Jews consider murder to be wrong. Even the Greeks considered it wrong hundreds of years before Jesus. The Zoroastrians considered it wrong. And many other cultures. "Murder" isn't a good example of moral code given by God since it's so widespread throughout the world in many cultures (even indigenous of some far away tribes in the jungles). It might be better if you can prove that slavery was immoral in the Old Testament and outlawed by God already back then. Perhaps you can find something about the immorality of abusing children too?

 

[Hufflechuff]

Have you considered the very real possibility that the human perspective is finite making it limited and lacking complete information, therefore resulting in the inability to make correct judgments?

Except that God has given humans a conscience and has revealed enough in the scriptures so that we are without excuse to know whether certain behaviors are evil and wrong, such as , "You shall not murder". So someone claiming God told them to murder is already demonstrating they are separated from God, His revealed standard of right and wrong, and acting outside of His will.

You seem to be contradictng yourself. Either we have an "inability to make correct judgements" or "we are without excuse to know whether certain behaviours are evil". Your argument was that God does not do evil because even what appears to our finite intellect to be evil is good in the long-run. I suppose you are saying that the Bible tells us this is so, but that doesn't help us tell the difference between what appears evil and what is evil.

Just a few words on

"You shall not murder". So someone claiming God told them to murder is already demonstrating they are separated from God, His revealed standard of right and wrong, and acting outside of His will

This commandment referred to the murder of fellow tribe members, not to people in general. (Much the same as "love thy neighbour" rather than an instruction to "love all people".) But they say actions speak louder than words. God murdered millions of people. Both the OT and NT are quoted by supporters of the death penalty. If someone claims the Bible, the word of God, as justification for murder, their argument is every bit as strong as yours.

As Ouroboros points out, the Bible is not a reasonable source of moral conduct without much cherry-picking and reinterpretation. It was not even original.

 

[johnhanks]

Except that God has given humans a conscience and has revealed enough in the scriptures so that we are without excuse to know whether certain behaviors are evil and wrong, such as , "You shall not murder".

Why is it so hard for some people to understand that "You shall not murder" is a semantically empty tautology? Since murder is defined as unlawful killing - we have other words for morally and legally approved killings - the command "You shall not murder" is tantamount to saying "unlawful homicide is unlawful".

So someone claiming God told them to murder is already demonstrating they are separated from God, His revealed standard of right and wrong, and acting outside of His will.

I doubt anyone has ever claimed, in those words, that "God told them to murder". Plenty of people (Moses for one, if you believe the OT) have claimed god told them to kill - but they didn't call it murder.

 

[InChrist]

You seem to be contradictng yourself. Either we have an "inability to make correct judgements" or "we are without excuse to know whether certain behaviours are evil". Your argument was that God does not do evil because even what appears to our finite intellect to be evil is good in the long-run. I suppose you are saying that the Bible tells us this is so, but that doesn't help us tell the difference between what appears evil and what is evil.

I am saying that while we are without excuse as to our own behaviors, we are in no position to judge God who is the infinite Creator of heaven and earth.

Just a few words on

This commandment referred to the murder of fellow tribe members, not to people in general. (Much the same as "love thy neighbour" rather than an instruction to "love all people".) But they say actions speak louder than words. God murdered millions of people. Both the OT and NT are quoted by supporters of the death penalty. If someone claims the Bible, the word of God, as justification for murder, their argument is every bit as strong as yours.

The commandment not to murder and to love your neighbor was reiterated in the NT and by Christ. It clearly was in reference to everyone in general, not just fellow tribe members.

By saying that God murdered millions of people you are revealing that you think you are in a position to judge the Creator of heaven and earth, is that not so? The scriptures, on the other hand, reveal the God is the ultimate Judge and a God of justice. He does not randomly kill, or kill for capricious reasons, as in murder. He does execute judgment and justice. This is the case for any example you may want to point to in the OT. Justice is not murder.

As Ouroboros points out, the Bible is not a reasonable source of moral conduct without much cherry-picking and reinterpretation. It was not even original.

[/quote]

God as the Creator is the original source of moral conduct and this Source is eternal. God has given progressive revelation concerning right and wrong to humanity from the beginning of time through various means, including the biblical scriptures according to His timing through History . If other cultures expressed similar moral standards before the OT and NT scriptures were written it is because all humans have a God-given conscience convicting them of right and wrong. All people have descended from Adam and Eve and Noah's family. All cultures, from their beginning, originally knew the same standards of God concerning right and wrong.

 

[Hufflechuff]

This is the case for any example you may want to point to in the OT

So your argument boils down to this: the Bible is right because the Bible says it is right because the Bible says it is right because the Bible says... ad nauseum :ignore: Your argument is unfalsifiable (you would not accept any evidence against it) and therefore is not a logical reasoned argument. It is merely fallacious. Just because you construct your argument in such a way that you will not accept you are wrong, does not mean you are right.

By saying that God murdered millions of people you are revealing that you think you are in a position to judge the Creator of heaven and earth, is that not so?

Damn right! To use your own logic, God gave us free-will and a conscience. It would be immoral not to use that conscience. So yes I judge the actions that are claimed in the name of God; the wanton and indiscriminate murder of every (bar two) unsuspecting man, woman, boy, girl, newborn, foetus, and animal across the world. I judge this to be evil. By every definition we have such genocide is evil - no matter the so-called justification.

God broke his own commandment, and instructed Israelites to kill people of other tribes.

God as the Creator is the original source of moral conduct and this Source is eternal.

Which brings us back to the OP. If God is the source of all moral conduct, then he is the source of all shades of morality, from purely good, mostly good, through questionable, to evil. The way he created the universe included the concept of, space for, and first seed of evil. It was his concept, his creation.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Yes,God knew full well what would happen, that is the reason a Savior was planned before the foundation of the world. Although, God knew humans would make wrong choices, there is no contradiction because God's goal was to create beings with freewill.

1. The free will argument fails. Horribly. If God created mankind, then he is ultimately responsible for what it does.

2. According to Young Earth Creationism, Jesus came to the Earth thousands of years after the original sin. According to other beliefs, it took a lot longer than that. You can't seriously look me in the eye and tell me with a straight face that that's a perfect plan.

 

[InChrist]

So your argument boils down to this: the Bible is right because the Bible says it is right because the Bible says it is right because the Bible says... ad nauseum :ignore: Your argument is unfalsifiable (you would not accept any evidence against it) and therefore is not a logical reasoned argument. It is merely fallacious. Just because you construct your argument in such a way that you will not accept you are wrong, does not mean you are right.

I suppose it does boil down to the fact that I believe the Bible is God's Word. Therefore, if this is true then the information given in it is superior to human knowledge because human knowledge alone is inadequate. I believe the Bible to be reliable concerning spiritual truth, the state of humanity, and the character of God, while validating itself through fulfilled prophecy, historical context, and blatant honesty unlike any other sacred book or scriptures. From my experience of knowing God in a real and personal way I believe Him to be a faithful, patient, loving, merciful. and just God. You are certainly entitled to your views and arguments. I may be wrong about many, many things, but I know without a doubt that the God of the Bible is never wrong, evil or anything less than perfect love and justice.

Damn right! To use your own logic, God gave us free-will and a conscience. It would be immoral not to use that conscience. So yes I judge the actions that are claimed in the name of God; the wanton and indiscriminate murder of every (bar two) unsuspecting man, woman, boy, girl, newborn, foetus, and animal across the world. I judge this to be evil. By every definition we have such genocide is evil - no matter the so-called justification.

I, too, use my judgment to evaluate actions which are claimed to be done in the name of God, and there are plenty which are obviously done by the wickedness of men.

God broke his own commandment, and instructed Israelites to kill people of other tribes.

According to the scriptures there is no darkness in God and He cannot sin, so it is impossible for God to go against His own character and Being and break His own commandment ( Can God sin? If God cannot sin, is He truly omnipotent? ). Have you stopped to ask yourself the reason that God commanded the Israelites to destroy the other tribes? Are you aware that they were preforming human sacrifice of their children to false gods? Do you realize that those other tribes had at least 40 years to repent from their sinful practices and submit to the Living God? Do you believe God has no right to judge His creation? Do you think He should He let evil grow and continue endlessly?

Which brings us back to the OP. If God is the source of all moral conduct, then he is the source of all shades of morality, from purely good, mostly good, through questionable, to evil. The way he created the universe included the concept of, space for, and first seed of evil. It was his concept, his creation.[/quote

Again, as I have said before according to the scriptures God is holy and righteous and only goodness emanates from Him. I think the scriptures are a little more black and white than your perspective of morality, there is...good(in God's will) and there is evil (outside of God's will). The way He created the universe was to create beings with the ability to think and choose to freely love and trust His goodness. Anything less results in evil. While He has allowed humans to initiate evil, it is not from God and such evil is outside of His will. Yet, He has a plan in place to eliminate all evil from the new heaven and earth.