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Did God create evil?

InChrist

Free4ever
1. The free will argument fails. Horribly. If God created mankind, then he is ultimately responsible for what it does.

By this same logic, then I assume you must feel that parents are ultimately responsible for any crimes or wrong-doing of their adult children since they brought them into existence by procreating and giving birth to them.

2. According to Young Earth Creationism, Jesus came to the Earth thousands of years after the original sin. According to other beliefs, it took a lot longer than that. You can't seriously look me in the eye and tell me with a straight face that that's a perfect plan.
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I can't through the computer, but if in person I could very well look you in the eye and tell you with a straight face that God had the perfect plan in sending Jesus to the earth as the Savior at a certain point in history to pay for the sins of the world.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
By this same logic, then I assume you must feel that parents are ultimately responsible for any crimes or wrong-doing of their adult children since they brought them into existence by procreating and giving birth to them.
It's not exactly thr same, so it's not the same logic. God supposedly created the law, morality, goodness, and humans (including the children you're refrring to, and the parents are not the creators), so parents aren't the ultimate creators, law givers, judges, jurires, and executoners of morality. So it doesn't fully compare. Besides, doesn't the Bible put the blame on Adam & Eve already? Doing exactly what you're hinting to being wrong?

I can't through the computer, but if in person I could very well look you in the eye and tell you with a straight face that God had the perfect plan in sending Jesus to the earth as the Savior at a certain point in history to pay for the sins of the world.
What sins? Who is it we blame for the sins of the world? Who is the ultimate creator of the master plan? We should glorify God for making A&E into patsies?
 

Avoice

Active Member
I think God decided what evil was for this universe of ours. Whether he created that concept with the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil; or judgement; ... He did create judgement - the willingness to decide between good and evil. like I've said: nakedness was not evil in God's sight but became so to A&E when they ate of the forbidden fruit. It would appear from that point of view that we humans invented or created evil.
 

Avoice

Active Member
Can you acknowledge that a contradiction occurs here?

If not, explain why God created the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, knowing full and well what would happen as a result.

There were two roads we could take. We chose the long and painful one with judgement as our impetus instead of God and His loving Kindness.

God encompasses all our pathways, all our choices. And as scripture indicates Leaves us a way out.
 

Hufflechuff

Member
I suppose it does boil down to the fact that I believe the Bible is God's Word. Therefore, if this is true then the information given in it is superior to human knowledge because human knowledge alone is inadequate. I believe the Bible to be reliable concerning spiritual truth, the state of humanity, and the character of God, while validating itself through fulfilled prophecy, historical context, and blatant honesty unlike any other sacred book or scriptures.
You therefore concede that your faith is not based on evidence but that you, quite simply, 'believe'. You say 'if' the Bible were true. That is a big 'if'. It isn't. There is nothing in it that is 'superior to human knowledge'. Fulfilled prophecy - there aren't any except those that were fulfilled with the express purpose of fulfilling an earlier prophecy. Blatant honesty? About what?

From my experience of knowing God in a real and personal way I believe Him to be a faithful, patient, loving, merciful. and just God. You are certainly entitled to your views and arguments. I may be wrong about many, many things, but I know without a doubt that the God of the Bible is never wrong, evil or anything less than perfect love and justice.
The appeal to personal experience, whilst no doubt of great importance to you, must be viewed dispassionately by an observer. We must consider whether your experience is any more credible than that of, say, a Muslim. There is nothing to suggest it is. So if one can be rejected so can the other. We must also consider whether the experiences you undergo are a relationship with god or something else, such as a psychological condition or wishful thinking. Perhaps it is your own conscience you hear - not god. It is unverifiable but we do have evidence of mental states. If I said I have a personal relationship with Elvis you would think me crazy. What about if I had a real and personal relationship with Mother Theresa? Or Henry VIII? How about St Peter? Isiah? Too mortal? Then how about Zeus? Mithras? Vishnu? Allah? Gaia? Gabriel? Satan? Crazy on all counts? :areyoucra
I, too, use my judgment to evaluate actions which are claimed to be done in the name of God, and there are plenty which are obviously done by the wickedness of men.
Yes "obviously". Writing them down in the Bible does not change that. It does not magically make the actions moral, or for a greater good. There is little difference between murder committed by Saul and Samuel as that committed by Charles Manson or Bin-Laden.

When you go on to say...
Have you stopped to ask yourself the reason that God commanded the Israelites to destroy the other tribes? Are you aware that they were preforming human sacrifice of their children to false gods? Do you realize that those other tribes had at least 40 years to repent from their sinful practices and submit to the Living God? Do you believe God has no right to judge His creation? Do you think He should He let evil grow and continue endlessly?
I can only ask - was every man, woman and CHILD performing human sacrifice? Was every child and newborn equally guilty? Was murder the only option available to this supremely powerful deity? (What's the deal with human sacrifice anyway? It's not the loss of life - God is quite happy about killing. No it is the worship. According to you they simply 'thought' the wrong thing about who to worship and so had to die. In that despicable argument you fully, whether you realise it or not, justify every murder committed in the name of any god. It is exactly the argument used by the murderers flying the planes on 9/11. How do you tell the difference between Mohammed Atta and Saul?)

He has a plan in place to eliminate all evil from the new heaven and earth.
Well his plan sucks. It seems he can think of nothing more imaginative than total annihilation.

It genuinely scares me that people seek to justify murder based on what people think about something as unprovable as this. Not based on morals, or right and wrong, just whether it is what this particular god might want.
 
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Mercy Not Sacrifice

Well-Known Member
By this same logic, then I assume you must feel that parents are ultimately responsible for any crimes or wrong-doing of their adult children since they brought them into existence by procreating and giving birth to them.

Inductively, that would lead back to the creator of the first humans. No reason to stop anywhere along the line. Look at it this way: If I create a virus, and it somehow leaks into the atmosphere and causes a plague, I alone am responsible. The virus is not responsible; it was just doing what it was designed to do. God supposedly created human beings, beings that desired what looks good and tastes pleasant.

That's not to negate personal responsibility of what we do every day, but if the Genesis creation story is literally true, then God bears ultimate responsibility for everything mankind has ever done. He knew we were going to do it, yet he still created both us and that tree.

I can't through the computer, but if in person I could very well look you in the eye and tell you with a straight face that God had the perfect plan in sending Jesus to the earth as the Savior at a certain point in history to pay for the sins of the world.

If you really think that plan was perfect, then how come it has such a high failure rate? "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." --Matthew 7:13-14

And please don't say free will. A perfect plan should have a success rate of 99.995% or so, if not exactly 100%. A plan that has a success rate well under 50% is categorically not a perfect plan.
 

Hufflechuff

Member
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7) Which, unless you want to claim spurious translation, seems pretty clear.
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
There were two roads we could take. We chose the long and painful one with judgement as our impetus instead of God and His loving Kindness.

God encompasses all our pathways, all our choices. And as scripture indicates Leaves us a way out.

Who is this "we" I certainly didn't choose a path of misery and sin for myself. Some Rib woman and dust man did for all of us, I guess.

What kills me is this need to describe God in Abrahamic religions to human standards of ego but we aren't allowed to judge him on that level. Sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

If God isn't going to follow the logic he created then his tests are nothing but sick psychological jokes. Those with reason are punished for using their brains.
 

Tranquil Servant

Was M.I.A for a while
IMO "evil" is not something that is created; it's a choice or a point of view. We may view an act or a decision as being just or right but others or God may view it as being unjust. For those of us who have faith in the Creator God, to believe that he is the Creator and all-knowing, means we believe in the laws and standards he set for what's right and wrong. Therefore, IMO anything we do which God says not to do is evil (or sin). Does this mean he can go against the standards he set for us? I would say yes. Why? Because he's God. I can't do what God does. I can only try to be what he wants me to be. I trust in God and believe he is just.
 

Hufflechuff

Member
IMO "evil" is not something that is created; it's a choice or a point of view. We may view an act or a decision as being just or right but others or God may view it as being unjust. For those of us who have faith in the Creator God, to believe that he is the Creator and all-knowing, means we believe in the laws and standards he set for what's right and wrong. Therefore, IMO anything we do which God says not to do is evil (or sin). Does this mean he can go against the standards he set for us? I would say yes. Why? Because he's God. I can't do what God does. I can only try to be what he wants me to be. I trust in God and believe he is just.

You say God decides what is right or wrong. So of course he can go against those standards because they have no meaning as right and wrong. They are merely what God approves or disapproves. He is simply approving or disapproving. He cannot, therefore, consider humself to be right or wrong, neither good nor evil.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
If God is necessary for us to be able to know right from wrong, good from evil, how come God doesn't need a God too for the same reasons? :shrug:
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Because we are finite with limited knowledge and awareness. God is infinite and omniscient.:)
Do we know that this is necessary for knowing good from evil? What stick of measurement would an infinite and omniscient being has to judge right from wrong? If we need a God to make such judgment, then why doesn't God need that too?
 

Tranquil Servant

Was M.I.A for a while
Do we know that this is necessary for knowing good from evil? What stick of measurement would an infinite and omniscient being has to judge right from wrong? If we need a God to make such judgment, then why doesn't God need that too?
Because he's omniscient.Which means he knows everything; he knows the past, present, and future; he knows all; he knows everything known and unknown to us human. He is not mere human. AND he knows the affects of our causes. I personally don't know of anyone else who knows that much.
 

Avoice

Active Member
Who is this "we" I certainly didn't choose a path of misery and sin for myself. Some Rib woman and dust man did for all of us, I guess.

What kills me is this need to describe God in Abrahamic religions to human standards of ego but we aren't allowed to judge him on that level. Sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

If God isn't going to follow the logic he created then his tests are nothing but sick psychological jokes. Those with reason are punished for using their brains.

Well I'm glad you chose a path of life ie no theft of any sort, no lies about or to people, no murder, no fraud and no adultery. These things are what leads to misery and are sin. Adam and Eve left us open to those sins. Jesus gives us hope that we can overcome the desire to commit them though our faith in him and his Father.

God does not go out of His way to make His word hard to understand or apply to daily living. We are not trying to bring Him down to our level, He writes to it like any good author.

What logic? He knew we were a young people and needed time to mature enough to Judge good from evil with any kind of true accuracy. Thus the tree was made a forbidden thing. I mean look what we did with it. We're stuck in clothes because they decided they were physically naked, failing to realize they had made themselves spiritually naked.
 

Hufflechuff

Member
Because he's omniscient.Which means he knows everything; he knows the past, present, and future; he knows all; he knows everything known and unknown to us human. He is not mere human. AND he knows the affects of our causes. I personally don't know of anyone else who knows that much.

To say God knows everything is a non-sensical claim - does he know what it is like to experience being outside of God? Does he know what it is to have no knowledge of God?

Even if he did, it is no evidence that good and evil are anything other than his opinion, his preference. So, again I say, it is not good nor bad, just approved or disapproved.

[To go off topic a little, you say he knows the future. And the Effects of our causes. So before we do anything it is pre-ordained. God knows what will happen regardless of what we do. If you do bad things, it's okay because God already knew you would. There is no purpose to our existence, God knows the outcome, not just of our short meagre lives but of all eternity, trillions of years. To the time when the universe has expanded to the point of being invisible. When every star has burned away and for millenia upon millenia there is absolutely nothing. God knows all this in an instant. He must be bored senseless already.]
 

Tranquil Servant

Was M.I.A for a while
To say God knows everything is a non-sensical claim - does he know what it is like to experience being outside of God? Does he know what it is to have no knowledge of God?
1) It is a nonsensical claim..God is not merely human therefore he is not limited to the human perception and senses. 2) Yes he does know what it's like to experience being outside of God. 3) Yes he understands those who have no knowledge of God. That is why he communicated with mankind in the many ways that he did in the past and left us his laws and words.

Even if he did, it is no evidence that good and evil are anything other than his opinion, his preference. So, again I say, it is not good nor bad, just approved or disapproved.
Your right again...He does set the standards of what's good and evil which is whatever he approves or disapproves of.

[To go off topic a little, you say he knows the future. And the Effects of our causes. So before we do anything it is pre-ordained. God knows what will happen regardless of what we do. If you do bad things, it's okay because God already knew you would. There is no purpose to our existence, God knows the outcome, not just of our short meagre lives but of all eternity, trillions of years. To the time when the universe has expanded to the point of being invisible. When every star has burned away and for millenia upon millenia there is absolutely nothing. God knows all this in an instant. He must be bored senseless already.]
Thanx for correcting my spelling error. Clearly you are sophisticated and educated. AND yes I do believe God knows the future because his Will (or plan) will be accomplished no matter what choices we make but he arranges or allows (with the help of Satan) our situation so that we can make our choices and our choices will determine our fate but God arranges our fate according to the choices we make. Our life is a spiritual test but our choices don't affect his plan because since he prearranges all our situations, our choices will still result in fulfilling his plan. AND how does the greatest Creator "get bored"?
 

johnhanks

Well-Known Member
Yes he understands those who have no knowledge of God. That is why he communicated with mankind in the many ways that he did in the past and left us his laws and words.
What exactly were the "many ways" in which god communicated with the peoples of pre-Columbian Mesoamerica?

Do you really believe that exchanging a few words with a prophet belonging to a tribe that occupied approximately 0.004% of the world's surface was the best an all-powerful deity could do in his attempts to communicate with the totality of his people?
 

Tranquil Servant

Was M.I.A for a while
What exactly were the "many ways" in which god communicated with the peoples of pre-Columbian Mesoamerica?
Didn't those people worship God(s)? They must've gotten the idea from somewhere. Not to say that God communated with them directly but they did believe in a great deluge similar to that of Noah's Ark.
Do you really believe that exchanging a few words with a prophet belonging to a tribe that occupied approximately 0.004% of the world's surface was the best an all-powerful deity could do in his attempts to communicate with the totality of his people?
Apparently...yes it was the best way to communicate with his people. The 3 major religions of the world are Abrahamic religions.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
God created angels with freewill. Satan created evil when he turned against
God. God can be blamed for creating creatures, but not for evil.
 
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