Did God create evil?

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

If God is the ultimate source, first cause, and the One of everything, beginning, duration, end, and so forth, then God is the source of good and evil. Nothing can exist outside of God, or God will be less than the greatest.

The problem is rather what the term "evil" means. Evil seems to mean more than just harm to humans. Evil is also chaos, calamity, disruption, separation, etc. In essence, I think it mostly means "whatever we currently don't like or approve of in society." During the Inquisition, people didn't (in general, or publicly) declare torture being evil, but rather means necessary to a good end (salvation of the soul). So "what is evil?" is probably a more difficult question to answer. (In my opinion)

Wow.

Even if the Christian god were to exist, this (among MANY other things) questions whether he is worthy of worship.

 

[Skwim]

New International Version (©2011)
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
New Living Translation (©2007)
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.
English Standard Version (©2001)
I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things."
International Standard Version (©2012)
"I form light and create darkness, I make goodness and create disaster. I am the LORD, who does all these things.
NET Bible (©2006)
I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.
????

But I believe "evil" is the most common translation

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

American King James Version
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

American Standard Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

Douay-Rheims Bible
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

Darby Bible Translation
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

English Revised Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

Webster's Bible Translation
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Geneva Study Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Young's Literal Translation
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
"I am Jehovah, and none else; Forming light, and creating darkness, Making peace, and creating evil: I Jehovah am the author of all these things."
​

 

[tarekabdo12]

God didn't create evil in a direct way in my opinion, however, God created choice to establish the presence of different persons would choose different ways of life whether good or evil so that they can be rewarded or punished. The choice itself is essential to have persons that choseGod and his way not just to be adjusted that way like angels. So choice means to love not to be coerced.

 

[islam abduallah]

i just post something in the islam DIR regarding that according to my belief

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/146250-allah-creates-evil.html

 

[BSM1]

[

quote=Tranquil Servant;3277500]This question came to me while I watched an Anime movie with my husband on Netflix called "Dante's Inferno". The storyline is a crazy one. There's a lot of Greek mythology mixed in with Christianity. However, towards the end of the movie, a character said to be "Satan, Lucifer, or the Devil" said something which just didn't feel right (maybe because it was coming from a character said to be Satan); He basically said God created evil. Then my husband who is Muslim agreed. I can agree that God created everything in existence but I believe "evil" is something God Knows of because anything that goes against God's will is considered to be a sin or evil. Satan, the fallen angels and mankind came to know sin only after God gave the free will or the choice to choose. God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge between good and evil. Did Eve know she was committing an evil act when she ate from the tree? Is a sin not considered a sin just because we don't know it's evil? A sin is a sin. why? because when we make a choice inspired by our own desires or based on ideas that did not come from God, It will produce a negative outcome. I believe, God allows us to have a free will so we can learn the difference between good and evil. An evil act is based on intentions and although sometimes we think our intentions are good, God knows better than we do.
This led me to another question. Why has God displayed violence but tells us to refrain from violence? I believe it's because only God can judge and is the only just Judge which means that only he can apply justice in the way he deems necessary. unfortunately, sometimes his judgement requires some to pay with their lives. It is because mankind has placed so much judgement on one another, that this world is in chaos. Micah 7:2-4, Matthew 7:1-3

[/QUOTE]

I started this same thread months ago when I joined the forum. It's amazing how this verse brings the apologists out of the woods. Some people have a problem understanding and accepting the meaning of this passage, but it means exactly what it says. This ties in to the story of Adam/Eve when Eve ate from The Tree of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil; the knowledge of good and evil is that there is no difference in the two. God, having created both and all, has placed no greater weight on one as the other. Good/evil boils down to a human judgement call, we decide what's good and evil. When, or if, man realizes that they have the free will to decide what will be good and what will be evil, then man loses his/her innocence. This, imo, is what happened in the Garden. God, having created all things and all things equal, has left it up to us to live a life that we decide is good or evil. It's a heavy burden.

 

[johnhanks]

Humans are capable of an enormous range of self-serving actions. Morality is an evolved trait through which our social selves regulate those actions, and 'evil' is simply the word we currently use to describe actions and motivations that lie at the farthest possible extreme from those we hold ourselves and our in-group to. Like the rest of morality, the concept of evil is obligingly plastic: for example, nowadays slavery is regarded as an abominable evil; not many generations ago it was regarded as morally acceptable and economically necessary.

People who commit acts we condemn as 'evil' have generally made a mental re-ordering of the world to remove the objects of their actions from moral consideration: however the rest of us may see it, I seriously doubt any sane 'evil-doer' consciously labels his own actions evil - by his adjusted morality there is always a justification.

Reference to "natural evil ... like famines, floods, etc." reflect nothing more that our brains' difficulty in dealing with contingent events and our innate drive to see agency where none exists.

 

[Ouroboros]

Another thought I had, whenever the discussion comes up if the world was created or not, the question is "where did all come from?" Is the answer really God? Not if Satan is a creator of evil. But it doesn't sound as pleasant, does it? To say, God and Satan created the world. :/

 

[BruceDLimber]

No: God didn't create evil. Evil is simply the relative absence of good.

I quote the Baha'i scriptures:


Chapter 74. THE NONEXISTENCE OF EVIL

“The true explanation of this subject is very difficult. Know that beings are of two kinds: material and spiritual, those perceptible to the senses and those intellectual.
“Things which are sensible are those which are perceived by the five exterior senses; thus those outward existences which the eyes see are called sensible. Intellectual things are those which have no outward existence but are conceptions of the mind. For example, mind itself is an intellectual thing which has no outward existence. All man's characteristics and qualities form an intellectual existence and are not sensible.
“Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want of good sense. All these things have no real existence.
“In the same way, the sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistence—that is to say, blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth, illness is the want of health, death is the want of life, and weakness is the want of strength.
“Nevertheless a doubt occurs to the mind—that is, scorpions and serpents are poisonous. Are they good or evil, for they are existing beings? Yes, a scorpion is evil in relation to man; a serpent is evil in relation to man; but in relation to themselves they are not evil, for their poison is their weapon, and by their sting they defend themselves. But as the elements of their poison do not agree with our elements—that is to say, as there is antagonism between these different elements, therefore, this antagonism is evil; but in reality as regards themselves they are good.
“The epitome of this discourse is that it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light: when there is no light, there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is nonexistent. Wealth is an existing thing, but poverty is nonexisting.
“Then it is evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent.”
— Some Answered Questions, pp. 282-284


Peace,

Bruce

 

[Ouroboros]

Or good is the absence of evil.

 

[ChristineES]

Wherever there is light, the is also the chance of darkness. Even the tiniest amount of light- like a birthday candle- will make the darkness lighted. The same with evil.

Most evil is not evil to the person doing the deed. War is a good example of this. Your enemies will be seen as "evil" while your allies will be seen as good. It would be opposite for the other side, in which they see your side as evil and their side as good.

I don't think there is any "pure evil". We all do things we should not do- (bad=evil, in this case). We Christians believe that human nature is evil- we tend to overeat, drink too much, have sex with too many partners (to me, sex outside of love should not be done- I will refrain from saying any more than that)

We are of flesh. Our minds and our spirits (if you believe in spirits) want to do good, but our bodies crave to feel good including things that are not good for us.
I don't think God created evil, but his creation, being flesh, can't help to overindulge and do things that feel good.

 

[ChristineES]

Or good is the absence of evil.

I would believe that if I didn't believe we had a spirit.

 

[InChrist]

This indicates that all such events occur as either retribution for human sin or as judgements of god. However, while often affecting human life, they sometimes don't. Not all earthquakes, lightening strikes, floods, tsunamis, tornadoes, and so on, impact people. So why these wasted shots at humanity? And when they do involve people, why would god use such a scatter-shot method; as if each and everyone is equally worthy of his wrath? In any case, these disasters are evils, evils that god instigated or sanctions.

As I was trying to say previously the scriptures indicate that the earth itself is in a state of chaos and upheaval under the curse brought on by human sin. Most of the natural disasters are not retribution, but are the indicators of a dying world...for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die (Genesis 2:17), the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now (Romans 8:21-22)

Just as it quotes him as saying he created evil. So what is the good Christian to do, celebrate evil because it's another blessing from god, OR just pretend Isaiah 45:7 doesn't exist?

[/quote]

You are free to pretend there is no such thing as proper biblical interpretation, but sincere Christians take the scriptures in context and in their entirety. There are numerous passages in the scriptures that leave no doubt that God is holy and evil is non-existent in His character. Christians do not celebrate evil, they agree with God that it is wicked, doing so first by admitting to the evil of sin within their own thoughts and then repenting and accepting God's way of deliverance.

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[InChrist]

How can there be any absence from God or anything different than God? It must be something new and something different, or it did exist as a potential thing before it became real. Satan can't create an absence of God's goodness unless God allows it.

That may be a question you have as a Panentheist believing everything is god, but the biblical worldview is that while God is present everywhere, God is differentiated from His creation. In the beginning the scriptures show that humans were created good and enjoyed closeness in their relationship and friendship with God their Creator. They were beguiled and deceived by Satan to distrust and disobey resulting in sinful actions. This brought separation between them and God and negatively impacted the relationship they once enjoyed.

God also supposedly knew that Satan would turn, before Satan turned. God must've known what he created when he created Satan before Satan became that "absence".

Yes, God knew, but if it wasn’t Satan it would have been another. If God was to create living beings with a will to choose the possibility of someone making the wrong choice always exists. The only other option would be to never create beings with a will, which it appears, God, did not consider a good option.

Two issues: Satan and "those" (i.e. people). God supposedly knew about both before either one happened. He's culpable.

[/quote]

Since you don’t see the entire eternal picture as God does I don’t think you can legitimately come to that conclusion, although you certainly can have your opinion. I choose to accept the perspective of the scriptures which leave no doubt that each person or individual being is responsible for their own sinful choices which result in evil. God is holy and good.

 

[Ouroboros]

Yes, God knew, but if it wasn’t Satan it would have been another. If God was to create living beings with a will to choose the possibility of someone making the wrong choice always exists. The only other option would be to never create beings with a will, which it appears, God, did not consider a good option.

Which means it was God's intention to let evil come into existence, regardless if he directly did it or not. Since "free will" is the greater option than goodness, then it's not in God's interest if evil exists or not. Free will is the superior option to goodness. Did I understand that right?

 

[josegre]

Ouroboros:
The Hebrew word רַע translated “evil” in Isaiah 45:7 can also be translated (and is in many other passages) “distress, misery, injury, calamity,” e.g. Jeremiah 42:6, “Whether it is pleasant [prosperity] or unpleasant [adversity] we will listen to the voice of the Lord our God…” [Brown, Francis, Samuel Rolles Driver and Charles Augustus Briggs. Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon. electronic ed. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, 2000.] The verse is bearing witness to God’s sovereignty over what occurs on earth, even bad events, such that He is not helpless against human history even if He is not the DIRECT cause.
Tranquil Servant, your husband’s understanding of God creating evil comes from the Muslim belief that God’s law – good and evil - is completely arbitrary: they are not based in any moral character of God, they are simply a test of obedience. He can make right wrong and wrong right. This is why none of the five pillars of Islam exist once one gets to heaven; they just go through them to get there. But your view seems to affirm that morals find their origin in God’s own nature. My conclusion has been thus:

A) It is impossible to distinguish evil from good unless one has an infinite reference point that is absolutely good. Since evil can only exist as a corrupting leech onto or deprivation of something good, we must have a standard that is untainted by evil in order to compare whether something or someone that exists has been tainted with evil or not.
B) This standard can only be found in the person of God, because since good finds its source in God, He alone can exhaust the definition of what is good.
C) So if you know God in all of His fullness, you will know good. Good and evil is all based on knowing God, since He is the reference point.

Genesis 2:16-17
A) One cannot know evil unless they know good, because evil can’t exist or make any rational sense unless good exists and you know what characterizes it in order to judge whether something evil lines up with it or not.
B) One also cannot know good unless they know evil. Without the contrast Adam and Eve, although surrounded by “good,” could not really know the concept of one without the other (e.g. West when there is no East, light when there is no dark). Thus eating of the tree gave the knowledge of both good and evil.
C) God created the world for His glory through a process of His expression and our reception of and response to it. That’s how He is glorified by His Creation.

D) Evil must exist for humanity to grasp the concept of God’s goodness. If we have no way of knowing goodness He cannot express Himself to us, and this structure will not function. If there is no sin in the world, how can we know God’s grace, mercy, justice, wrath? These attributes only make since in light of evil’s existence.
E) 1 John 4:9 The cross had everything to do with evil, but it also had everything to do with how God determined to express His love by allowing a fall in the world and then redeeming it.

Why did God put it in the garden to begin with? Was it a trap? Was God inviting a fall?
A) If He had set it up such that Adam would never fall, Adam could never decide whether he wanted to appeal to God’s goodness or not. If the response is only capable of affirming God automatically with no alternative, is that a relationship? This is not interactive in a truly genuine way (but like a doll with a string that you pull and it says “I love you.”). Thus it is necessary to produce vulnerability for the person to do otherwise.
B) The tree, not sin, is sovereignly designed by God to produce a choice. God makes sin possible, creatures make it actual
God did not simply know ahead of time that there would be a fall, for if this is so why didn’t He just not put a tree in the garden? He was the enabler by which the whole process could take place.

* C.S. Lewis: “God in His omniscience saw that from a world of free creatures, even though they fell, He could work out a deeper happiness and greater splendor than any world of automata would admit.”
C) It’s not a trap when God specifically points to it and says, “Stay away from it or you’re going to have a bad consequence.” But at the same time, God knows that a choice against Him for disobedience is not only a possibility but an inevitability. So the death of Christ was not some unfortunate detour on God’s plan.
D) We arrive at a tension between
a. The necessity of evil to exist for God to express Himself to humanity
b. God’s holy character that cannot tolerate or tempt with evil (Habakkuk 1:13; James 1:13)
c. The necessity for humanity to have a genuine choice – since that’s part of the requirements for the purpose structure of Creation to work
d. And God’s foreordination, where He determined to set up a world such that there would inevitably be a fall so that He might express His love to it, in my view, through the redemptive death of His Son.
It’s important here to understand the concept of God’s Will(s):
A) Decretive/Preceptive Will: What He determines by decree. He gives us precepts and commands to obey, but a permissive dimension exists. Includes both what He commands and what He allows or permits (even events that are contrary to His good character).
B) God’s Desiderative Will: That which He desires. Everything God desires will not necessarily take place but what He decrees will take place. We ourselves can desire more than one thing at once and we are only finite.

 

[Skwim]

As I was trying to say previously the scriptures indicate that the earth itself is in a state of chaos and upheaval under the curse brought on by human sin. Most of the natural disasters are not retribution, but are the indicators of a dying world...for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die (Genesis 2:17), the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now (Romans 8:21-22)

All which would point to god really blowing this creation. He may be all powerful, but he ain't much of creator. Kind of like the useless coffee cup I made out of clay in sixth grade. It looked good, but it's lip was uncomfortably wide.

You are free to pretend there is no such thing as proper biblical interpretation, but sincere Christians take the scriptures in context and in their entirety.

Don't they also believe the words they read? If the bible says "god says X," doesn't it mean god said X? Or are some passages optional, belief-wise?

There are numerous passages in the scriptures that leave no doubt that God is holy and evil is non-existent in His character.

I don't know about that. To me, anyone who creates evil, would be evil, just as anyone who creates good would be good.

Christians do not celebrate evil, they agree with God that it is wicked, doing so first by admitting to the evil of sin within their own thoughts and then repenting and accepting God's way of deliverance.

So why did he create something so wicked as evil?

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
​

 

[InChrist]

Which means it was God's intention to let evil come into existence, regardless if he directly did it or not. Since "free will" is the greater option than goodness, then it's not in God's interest if evil exists or not. Free will is the superior option to goodness. Did I understand that right?

God is Love. Actually, I see in the scriptures that the greatest option is love and God’s love embodies goodness. The choice given to each created being is to receive or reject God’s love. For love to be real it must be freely accepted, not mechanical or forced. When one chooses to reject the love and goodness of God in their life, evil fills the void.



What is the definition of evil?


Why does God allow evil?

 

[BBTimeless]

God is Love. Actually, I see in the scriptures that the greatest option is love and God’s love embodies goodness. The choice given to each created being is to receive or reject God’s love. For love to be real it must be freely accepted, not mechanical or forced. When one chooses to reject the love and goodness of God in their life, evil fills the void.

In scripture I see a lot of things, however, outside of the Gospels, I do not see much in the way of love.

 

[InChrist]

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
​

If you will notice and read this verse in context you will see that the word "evil" which can be and is often translated as calamity is contrasted with the word peace ...not the word "good". This is because this verse is in a passage speaking about God's dealings in the earthly affairs of humans on earth, specifically in reference to Cyrus and his dealings in relation to Israel. This is not a verse about "evil" being created like an animal. person, or planet any more than goodness is created. Goodness is an eternal attribute of God and evil only occurs when God's goodness is missing.

"While evil is certainly real, it is important to recognize that evil does not have existence in and of itself. Rather, it only exists as a privation (or a parasite) on the good. It exists in the same way that a wound exists on an arm or as rust exists on a car. The rust cannot exist on its own any more than cold can exist without the existence of heat or darkness can exist without the existence of light."

Read more: What is the definition of evil?
​

 

[InChrist]

In scripture I see a lot of things, however, outside of the Gospels, I do not see much in the way of love.

And I would say that is because this world is cursed by the effects of sin. The OT especially is a record of human history and does not hide this reality. When God's love and wisdom are rejected the results are not too good.