Did God create God, or was God always there?

[Twilight Hue]

Something that I oftentimes took for granted during my years as a Christian, my beliefs entailed that God had always existed without beginning or end. I never gave it a second thought further to question and debate this in any detail till my CoF so here goes....

Kicking off the talk/debate on this subject with three initial starter questions geared for Christians and Abrahamic theists in general, conducent with your views on approaching this by way of any scriptures or personal opinion(s) in light of which there are, and have been, actual opinions expressed pro and con by Christians and other Abrahamic faiths, I ask these questions from which I had never personally found an answer for during my time spent a Christian.

1) As God is said to be eternal, in which he never had any manner of beginning nor will have an end, is this then an example of something that God actually never had any kind of hand in, and therefore was not in control of his own creation?

2) As God is said to have created himself, satisfying the various mentions that he created all things, than how is this rectified with eternal creation meaning there was absolutely nothing beforehand and creation started with the creation of God?

3) Is there any biblical references or related mentions anywhere that addresses this in way of support or denial?

For Christians John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1 suggests an eternal and always existing god, and Col 1:16 and Rev 22:13 suggests that God had created himself.

If you are good at apologetics give it a try.

 

[Storm]

Is this meant to be for Abrahamics only?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Is this meant to be for Abrahamics only?

It doesn't have to be Storm.

I am just personally interested in the Abrahamic response being that it involves my former faith of which I have more insight in way of its doctrines, practices, and beliefs and such. Yet an expansion of this thread in general may enrich the topic here for those who are interested to do so, and to those who may like to read the exchanges. Go right ahead!

As a side note to anyone else, you don't also have to be a theist to participate as I'm no longer a theist myself, but I would request that for sake of this topic it be restricted to the premise that God is existing.

My intention is to explore this topic from a particular perspective during the thread, as I don't desire any offtracking towards a god or god does not exist impasse. Rather, I'm mainly interested in reading apologetics style responses and opinions for the most part on the subject.

 

[Storm]

OK, cool. I believe our Godiverse was Created by another, of which there are many. Where they came from, I have no idea, but I look forward to finding out.

 

[newnature]

I think of the tent Yahweh pitched in heaven itself; the tent Moses patterned the tent he made. If Yahweh pitched it, and that tent was not made from these created things, then were did Yahweh make this tent? I wonder sometime if those 24 elder in heaven, carried that tent and all the stuff in that tent, into this heaven or a abode of some kind, what the earth used to be, it's in the second heaven now. Their's no mention of those 24 elder being created; but it is interesting the kind of body they have and the kind of life the have within themselves. I think because of the covenant; the Abrahamic covenant is a covenant with a single individual; Yahweh appears as a suzerain. Yahweh’s making a land grant to a favored subject, which is very often how these work. In general, in this kind of covenant, the parties to the oath would pass between the split carcass of a sacrificial animal, as if to say that they agree they will suffer the same fate as this animal, if they violate the covenant. Abraham cuts the sacrificial animals in two, the striking thing about the Abrahamic covenant is it’s unilateral character, only Yahweh seems to be obligated by the covenant, obligated to fulfill the promise that Yahweh made. Abraham doesn’t appear to have any obligation to return; and so in this case, it is the subject, Abraham, and not the suzerain, Yahweh, who is benefited by this covenant Their is a moral justification for this grant of land to Israel; Yahweh is the owner of the land, and so Yahweh is empowered to set conditions or residency requirements for those who would reside in it, like a landlord. The current inhabitants of the land are polluting it, filling it with bloodshed and idolatry; and when the land becomes so polluted, completely polluted, it will spew out it’s inhabitants. That process, Yahweh says, Isn’t complete; so Israel is going to have to wait. The lease Isn’t up yet, Yahweh is seeking replacement tenants who are going to follow the oral rules of residence that Yahweh has established for his land; it’s clear that Yahweh’s covenant with Israel is not due to any special merit of the Israelites or favoritism. Yahweh adds to the promises, that a line of kings will come forth from Abraham, and then, that Abraham and his male descendants be circumcised as a perpetual sign of the covenant. So here there is some obligation for Abraham; so circumcision is here infused with a new meaning: it becomes a sign of Yahweh’s eternal covenant with Abraham and his seed through Isaac.

Yahweh got screwed over, when this earth was in the first heaven; but I think they knew Yahweh was always there?

I think you might be asking why Yahweh used the names he used like El?

 

[Meow Mix]

1) As God is said to be eternal, in which he never had any manner of beginning nor will have an end, is this then an example of something that God actually never had any kind of hand in, and therefore was not in control of his own creation?

I can't speak for all god-concepts, but theologians of the Abarhamic God tend to define "omnipotence" as the capacity to actualize any logically possible states of affairs. This means that even an omnipotent being couldn't do something that's logically impossible (since there's nothing to be "done," logical impossibilities can't exist).

Many of the same theologians also hold that God is ontologically necessary; meaning that it's impossible for God not to exist. This is a stronger ontological statement than just saying something definitely exists beyond any doubt (i.e. something absolutely known to exist): it means that it couldn't have even been otherwise.

If we assume these premises for the sake of argument then indeed God couldn't have had any hand in His own existence because His existence is necessarily so; and even His omnipotence couldn't make it otherwise. Indeed, they would say it is beyond God's control (but that such doesn't limit His power).

2) As God is said to have created himself, satisfying the various mentions that he created all things, than how is this rectified with eternal creation meaning there was absolutely nothing beforehand and creation started with the creation of God?

I'm not sure which god-concepts are said to have created themselves, but that's illogical and thus impossible.

3) Is there any biblical references or related mentions anywhere that addresses this in way of support or denial?

Going back to the Abrahamic God, theologians point out that when asked who He was, He responded to the tune of "I am that I am," implying that He simply "is." To me, this implies that He "was," and "will be" too. One could also simply note that Genesis 1 begins with God already existing: taken in conjunction with the "I am" comment I think it's easy to see where Abrahamic theologians get their conception.

Exd 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

For Christians John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1 suggests an eternal and always existing god, and Col 1:16 and Rev 22:13 suggests that God had created himself.

If you are good at apologetics give it a try.

From KJV (Link: Colossians 1 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)) (Emphasis added by me)

Col 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"
Col 1:17 "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

This doesn't appear to me to insinuate that God created Himself. In fact the following verse states that he precedes all [other] things.

Rev 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

This doesn't appear to me to say God created Himself either; rather that God is the beginning of other things that exist besides God.

 

[idea]

God has always existed, as have a lot of things. The problem comes when you look at the original word "create" in the Bible. A better translation of "bara" is transform, mold, change - not ex-Nihlo create...

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. - Jeremiah1:5

Our birth was not our beginning… Part of us had no beginning.

8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. - Isaiah64:8

The potter did not make the clay… but we can become His creation.

see: Hebrew Word Studies
"The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews."
God transforms what eternally exists, He does not ex-Nihlo create anything...

see also: http://www.dailyglobal.com/2009/10/god-is-not-the-creator-claims-academic/

 

[Meow Mix]

God has always existed, as have a lot of things. The problem comes when you look at the original word "create" in the Bible. A better translation of "bara" is transform, mold, change - not ex-Nihlo create...

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. - Jeremiah1:5

Our birth was not our beginning… Part of us had no beginning.

8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. - Isaiah64:8

The potter did not make the clay… but we can become His creation.

see: Hebrew Word Studies
"The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews."
God transforms what eternally exists, He does not ex-Nihlo create anything...

see also: God is not the Creator, claims academic

What did God transform? Was there an always existing universe along with God, which He transformed in his creative act in Genesis?

 

[idea]

What did God transform? Was there an always existing universe along with God, which He transformed in his creative act in Genesis?

Yes, everything has always existed in one form or another.
for example, we have always existed...

Does it say God created man from nothing? It does not –
Gen 2:
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Formed – is different than created from nothingness – formed, organized, changed what was already there… then “breathed” life into Adam, not created, breathed it in, placed it in….


Again, our birth was not our beginning…
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

We existed before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Ecc 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

“return” means coming to a state that we have previously been to – not “come” as if it were our first experience, but “return”

Zech 12:1 …the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

He “formed” our spirit before He placed us here on Earth. We call him our “Heavenly” Father because He is literally the father of our spirit… spirit not created from nothingness, formed out of intelligences that God found Himself surrounded by.

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life’s Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!

Wordsworth - ode to immortality


God is cleaning up a mess He did not create...

(New Testament | Romans8:15)
ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

adoption... where someone takes care of another that they did not create...

(New Testament | Romans8:23)
waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

(New Testament | Ephesians1:5)
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption....

etc. etc. etc.

those who so chose, can be adopted...


It is strange that the LDS seem to be the only Christians who teach about the pre-existence, the great war before the earth was formed where Satan fell, our Spirit's existence before birth... when you read the scriptures, it very plain that our birth was not our beginning. Sad that teaching was lost to most denoms... Who we are, where we come from, and where we are going... doesn't everyone ask where they came from?

 

[Meow Mix]

Yes, everything has always existed in one form or another.
for example, we have always existed...

That's interesting to me, and seems to me much easier to swallow than the metaphysically problematic creation ex nihilo.

 

[logician]

"Something" has always existed, but not necessarily a supernatural entity.

 

[jmvizanko]

1) As God is said to be eternal, in which he never had any manner of beginning nor will have an end, is this then an example of something that God actually never had any kind of hand in, and therefore was not in control of his own creation?

How could he have been? If he always existed, then there is no beforehand to his existence in which any choices about his existence could have been made.

2) As God is said to have created himself, satisfying the various mentions that he created all things, than how is this rectified with eternal creation meaning there was absolutely nothing beforehand and creation started with the creation of God?

I didn't quite follow that, but my whole two cents on all of this is the following. No matter how you look at it, there are really only 4 possibilities. Either god always existed, or came into his existence on his own, and then created the universe, or the universe always existed, or came into existence on its own. All of these options bring with them the ultimate philosophical mystery: why does what exists seemingly arbitrarily exist instead of something else or nothing at all? Why do any of these 4 possibilities make more sense than any of the others?

But one option that makes no sense to me is god creating himself. You have to exist in order to be able to create anything, including yourself, so that is an impossible catch 22 to resolve.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Essentially, yes. God creates god in the mind's eye. There is no other consistantly logical explaination. God is, but we just don't know; we, as mortals, cannot know. I am... but now, I was; when I push "submit" I will be. The mortal trine; I am - but to understand "being" is to be unity. Not in this lifetime.

 

[Sententia]

Yes, everything has always existed in one form or another.
for example, we have always existed...

And we had a life before this too. A pre-life if you will.

When you die you will have an afterlife and all you atheists... I am gonna come by and tap you on the shoulder and say see I was right... hah... What will that afterlife be like and why can you not remember your prelife? Hmm... well lets get you reading another testament of Jesus Christ and set you on the right path.

Lets set the mormon fable aside for a sec and just look at Idea's Words of wisdom a sec:

Does it say God created man from nothing? It does not –
Gen 2:
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Oh my god... God could not create peeps from nothing... first off my main man Yhwh needed dust for adam and then what? Yeah... He needed Adam's RIB for Eve.... What? Yeah... count your ribs males... You will see what's up.

(Pseudoscience freaks)

Alright so we are in what Gen 2.... Did at any point in time prior to Gen 2 did Gods always existing majestic fanny create the dust he needed for Adam? Didn't god say... "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

God created said earth and then needed said earth to make adam and needed said adam's rib to make eve and Booooooyah: everything has always existed. See? God existed to make the earth to thus then use to make adam.

Sigh.

 

[zenzero]

Friend idea,

Yes, everything has always existed in one form or another.
for example, we have always existed...

That is a great interpretation.
This is what all religions are stating and this is what the Bible actually means BUt is someone interpreted literally by most and miss the point each time.
Do interpret other parts of the Bible similarly for a greater understanding.

Love & rgds

 

[PennyKay]

1) As God is said to be eternal, in which he never had any manner of beginning nor will have an end, is this then an example of something that God actually never had any kind of hand in, and therefore was not in control of his own creation?

2) As God is said to have created himself, satisfying the various mentions that he created all things, than how is this rectified with eternal creation meaning there was absolutely nothing beforehand and creation started with the creation of God?

3) Is there any biblical references or related mentions anywhere that addresses this in way of support or denial?

For Christians John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1 suggests an eternal and always existing god, and Col 1:16 and Rev 22:13 suggests that God had created himself.

If you are good at apologetics give it a try.

I believe that something has always existed, but not necessarily a God.

 

[PennyKay]

I'm not sure which god-concepts are said to have created themselves, but that's illogical and thus impossible.

I don't agree at all that things that are illogical are impossible...many years ago it wasn't logical to assume that the earth orbited the sun, of course we now know it does.

The lack of knowledge doesn't make things impossible.

 

[sandandfoam]

1) As God is said to be eternal, in which he never had any manner of beginning nor will have an end, is this then an example of something that God actually never had any kind of hand in, and therefore was not in control of his own creation?

I believe the concepts of beginnings and ends are products of our minds and can be set aside. I think creation is an ongoing process. I think we are in the middle of creation now.

2) As God is said to have created himself, satisfying the various mentions that he created all things, than how is this rectified with eternal creation meaning there was absolutely nothing beforehand and creation started with the creation of God?

In the created there is the presence of the uncreated. In my story this is God.

3) Is there any biblical references or related mentions anywhere that addresses this in way of support or denial?

I don't know. My views flow from reading Newell and I think his ideas flow from Eriugena, St Patrick and others from the 'Celtic' tradition.

 

[blackout]

Originally Posted by KJV
Col 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"
Col 1:17 "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

This actually works for a Panthiestic/Panenthiestic? (Self'evolving UniVerse) God model.

 

[blackout]

I Am = I "Be"

I Become.

The "stuff" of Being must exist first
before any "things" can be formed and re'formed
of that "stuff".