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Did Jesus actually exist as a historical figure?

outhouse

Atheistically
Thought I might be able to learn a thing or two from you all on this forum.

Biblical Jesus is not historical Jesus.

His existence can be limited to a few sentences in full or a very short paragraph. After that it is the many different scholarly opinions that all can paint their own version in the grey areas to show the man they want to see.


A general outline of certainties as follow.

An Aramaic Galilean Jew from Nazareth who lived life below that of a peasant, who ate mostly flat round bread dipped in olive oil and or vinegar, local lentil's and seasonal greens and very little meat, less Passover. Who lived in a single story fieldstone house packed with mud and or feces with no window, and a single oil lamp and dirt floor. Who was baptized by John possibly in the Jordan. After Johns death Jesus ministry starts, where he has his inner circle of followers who travel with him spreading his message, teaching in small Aramaic poor village squares, living of the peasants hospitality while teaching around the dinner table in the evening. He made at least one trip to the temple where he causes trouble disrupting the peace and was crucified under Plate and Caiaphas.

Strong points are Baptized by John and Crucified under Pilate and Caiaphas rule.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
No need to get your panties in a bunch buddy

Come again?


Don't worry about him. He hates participating and thinks he only qualifies as a judge. Maybe he doesn't like the competition.

He used to have some great information to share about a decade ago, and used to debate with Carrier and other highly knowledgeable scholars.

He has the knowledge, just not a personality that is helpful to those with less education then his. IMHO
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
There's no direct historical data on the guy. He left no writings behind, nor did anyone who met him in person. That means as a historical figure he's problematic at best and may not actually qualify in the academic sense of the word. Even the bit from Tacitus quoted earlier isn't actually evidence of Jesus the man, but rather evidence of the existence of a narrative tradition about Jesus that Tacitus encountered nearly a century later and is simply repeating to the best of his understanding. In short, there is no documentary evidence for Jesus in the proper sense of the term. Those who claim that there is are stretching the definition of "documentary evidence" to the breaking point.

On the other hand, there is fair reason to believe that the mythic Jesus we have access to is based on a guy who actually lived around that time, gathered a following, and was killed by the Roman government for sedition--possibly because he was regarded by his followers as the Messiah, which in Jewish parlance was tantamount to claiming legitimate kingship over the country of Judea, which the Romans had given to Herod Agrippa to govern for them. For that tradition, see the royal title "Son of God," as well as the lengths to which the Gospel authors go to frame Jesus in terms of the rightful king of the Jews.

But the royal treatment is also subverted in the narrative tradition, since he didn't live to become king in fact and instead died young and rather ignominiously. So the Gospels and the early writers like Paul are very eager to explain that in such a way that it's not a failure but rather an expression of his true purpose, which was not to be an earthly king but something else entirely. That fact has led many people, me included, to conclude that that one aspect of his biography--i.e. his death--is genuine, since it's something early Christians felt the pressing need to explain, which means it's not how they would have wanted the story to go if they had had their choice.

There's also the fact that Paul claims to have met Peter and James, Jesus's brother. If that's true, then we have the writings of someone who met someone who knew Jesus. On the other hand, by the time the Gospels are being written a few decades later, the authors are going without basic biographical details, such as in what year he was born, what his family history was, or when exactly he did what during his life. So they fill in the gaps with stuff they think is appropriate, in the accepted manner of the ancient biographer. And their answers vary quite a bit.

Lastly, it's reasonable to imagine that there's a core of teachings that actually came from Jesus himself. Now, the teachings presented in the Gospels have been doctored and added to (sometimes even down the road, as variant Gospel manuscripts indicate), but there are certain common threads that can be seen running through early Christian thought, despite evidence that even then there were sectarian disputes. And while some of those teachings seem to have been common to mystical Judaism of the period, others may be original to Jesus, or at least stuff that he actually taught.

It would be folly to say that the Jesus of the Gospels is the same guy who lived at that time etc., but a the same time there's a point at which it's actually more plausible that there was a guy who was the basis for the version we have, rather than his being a total fabrication from the ground up.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
It would be folly to say that the Jesus of the Gospels is the same guy who lived at that time etc., but a the same time there's a point at which it's actually more plausible that there was a guy who was the basis for the version we have, rather than his being a total fabrication from the ground up.
What point is that?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
What point is that?

There is more plausibility in a historical Jesus that generated mythology and theology that grew dramatically surrounding his martyrdom, then a whole cloth 100% mythical creation of a man.

Id like to point out at this time, the brightest most educated minds have tried to explain a 100% mythical Jesus, and every argument put forward to date has failed miserably to explain the evidence we do have. And have been effectively refuted in full.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
What point is that?
It's not a specific point (metaphor breaks down). All I meant is that, as far as the balance of plausibility goes, it is easier (i.e. requires fewer tangential assumptions) to accept that the oral-tradition Jesus is based on an actual person, however embellished and mythologized, than it does to believe that there was a conspiracy of guys in the mid-1st century who worked together to consciously fabricate him.

In that case the time frame is key, I think. Most ancient mythic figures like Moses or Heracles don't need to have been based on an actual person. They're archetypal characters that multiple cultures will have versions of and who are situated so far back in the past that there's no possibility of a direct connection to people in the present (the fashionable practice of claiming descent from Heracles notwithstanding--in fact he's so ancient that anybody could make that claim). Jesus, on the other hand, has a myth grow up around him very quickly, in a way that is reminiscent of how popular narratives grow up around figures even today. His narrative borrows traits from archetypal figures to fill in the gaps of what people couldn't know first-hand, but that also is pretty common for the period, when first-hand knowledge of most people was hard to come by.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
I'm not even certain about the baptism by John. It has been suggested that John the Baptist was a rival figure of the period and that his inclusion in the Gospel stories was a way of co-opting him as a subordinate character who supported Jesus rather than rivaling him. We probably can't ever know the truth of that, but I do find it interesting how much attention is paid to John in the Gospels, as if to acknowledge his importance while also putting him in his place.

The best principle for reading the Gospels properly is to view them through the lens of the values, allegiances, rivalries, and anxieties of the Christians of the late 1st century, all projected back onto the time of Jesus's life. Everything the authors say is significant in some sense, although it's almost never in the sense of simply recounting facts.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
In that case the time frame is key

100% agree


How often do we see 100% mythological characters starting within a lifetime of the people who are writing about it?????????????


Not only that, why would they place their star of the show, as a the lead singer in front of half a million people. Then start writing about him a few years later where people could say I was there and that did not happen. And none said he was not here.
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
There is more plausibility in a historical Jesus that generated mythology and theology that grew dramatically surrounding his martyrdom, then a whole cloth 100% mythical creation of a man.
And I agree. My question was addressing the specific "point at which it's actually more plausible." When did it turn from implausible or unlikely to plausible.

___________________________________________________

Vishvavajra said:
It's not a specific point (metaphor breaks down). All I meant is that, as far as the balance of plausibility goes, it is easier (i.e. requires fewer tangential assumptions) to accept that the oral-tradition Jesus is based on an actual person, however embellished and mythologized, than it does to believe that there was a conspiracy of guys in the mid-1st century who worked together to consciously fabricate him.
Understood, and I agree.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Anyone from any religion is welcome to join in on the discussion, but I have a few rules that everyone must follow. If you do not want to adhere to these rules, please be respectful and refrain from commenting. Thanks so much for your input and respect to the nature of this discussion:

1. Do not refer to one part of the Bible as proof for any validity of any other part of the Bible. We are trying to be objective here.

2. Do not make claims stating that "Biblical Scholars agree ..." This is nothing but a cop-out, and I would like to discuss the actual evidence that might lead those Scholars to agree in the first place.

3. No claims without sufficient evidence to back them up. You cannot just say things like "everyone knows".

4. Finally, there is absolutely NO CLAIMING THAT ANY OPINION SHARED MAKES THE HOLDER OF THAT PERSON ANY LESS OF A DECENT PERSON. Let's be adults and keep this one clean.

If you don't like the rules, please avoid the thread. Thanks so much. I look forward to the discussion.
Yes, I believe a man like the man called Jesus existed, based on several sources, such as Tacitus, and less so, Josephus, etc. there are clear and most likely accurate enough documents to prove that someon like this did exist. Was he what Christians purport? I don't believe so because of many reasons.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
It has been suggested that John the Baptist was a rival figure of the period and that his inclusion in the Gospel stories was a way of co-opting him as a subordinate character who supported Jesus rather than rivaling him.

The people writing the mythology and theology giving jesus divinity, cannot focus that John was the larger more popular teacher, and that his followers went to Jesus after his death. Or that he was Jesus teacher that Jesus took over his movement when he was killed.

And that is wheat we see in Johns biblical legends. We see tem hiding the notion as best as possible, but al the while admitting Jesus went to him.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
How often do we see 100% mythological characters starting within a lifetime of the people who are writing about it?????????????
Probably not very. I'm not sure I can think of any. Memory can shift surprisingly quickly, but fully-fledged myths seem to take a while to evolve.

Not only that, why would they place their star of the show, as a the lead singer in front of half a million people. Then start writing about him a few years later where people could say I was there and that did not happen.
I'm not sure. The collective memory of people is a very dynamic thing. What people remember is subject to change and being influenced. And it's not as if the Gospel authors don't include some pretty ludicrous stuff that people would have known wasn't true. There's no hint of evidence for a slaughter of infants in the reign of Herod the Great, for example, even from people who would later write some nasty things about him. Nor would a Roman census have required Joseph to relocate to Bethlehem; that's just an excuse to get them there to draw a connection to David. And the audience would surely have known these things. Ditto for the miracles Jesus is said to have performed in front of multitudes (but reports of miracles like that are found all over ancient literature of this kind, so go figure).

At the same time, Paul is writing much closer to the generation in question, when some people who claimed to have known Jesus were still alive, so who knows?
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Yes, I believe a man like the man called Jesus existed, based on several sources, such as Tacitus, and less so, Josephus, etc. there are clear and most likely accurate enough documents to prove that someon like this did exist. Was he what Christians purport? I don't believe so because of many reasons.
Yes I agree with this, sadly this man was shoved up on a pedestal and made a an idol of.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
The people writing the mythology and theology giving jesus divinity, cannot focus that John was the larger more popular teacher, and that his followers went to Jesus after his death. Or that he was Jesus teacher that Jesus took over his movement when he was killed.

And that is wheat we see in Johns biblical legends. We see tem hiding the notion as best as possible, but al the while admitting Jesus went to him.
That's a good point. The sense of putting John in his place that I mentioned may best be explained as an attempt to get out in front of any indication that Jesus was his disciple and that he was the real guru behind the movement. And if Jesus was a known associate of his, that would make the need all the more pressing.
 

KKawohl

Member
Bill O'Reilly from Fox News researched & wrote the book, Killing Jesus.
Jesus, even according to the Dead Sea Scrolls, apparently existed & was considered a religious rebel during the three years of his life that the Scriptures have written about.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Bill O'Reilly from Fox News researched & wrote the book, Killing Jesus.
Jesus, even according to the Dead Sea Scrolls, apparently existed & was considered a religious rebel during the three years of his life that the Scriptures have written about.

Sort of like Reza Aslan and his Zealot Jesus.

I see it. And follow that.
 
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