• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Did Jesus actually exist as a historical figure?

outhouse

Atheistically
Actually, we're not sure about the disturbance in the temple.

One could preach at the top of his lungs yelling anything one likes, and Romans are not going to crucify you. You would also be invisible in half a million people.

Jesus was no different then any of the other thousands of teachers, now if we follow Crossan who thinks the donkey entrance was mocking the triumphant entrance, that caught him on the radar, well that may be to. But teachers in a sea of people requires action to make one's self different. And actions also get you crucified.


Now starting trouble, of any kind, even disturbing the peace would get one crucified quickly.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
That would also be the basis for the Judas Iscariot figure, who is almost certainly mythical from start to finish

I agree its myth as is the 12 apostles.

But their may have been some kind of traditions from arrest that started this. You also have the apostles portrayed as cowards who fled, and traditions of swords and violence.


I think the night arrest is historical, as that would be the proper way to not incite a riot.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
There are enough pieces to cobble together a brief outline.

An apocalyptic Aramaic Galilean baptized by John who traveled after he took Johns movement to the road. Probably ate flat bread and olive oil or vinegar, some lentils and other seasonal greens, and very little meat less Passover. He traveled at least once to the temple where caused a disturbance and was crucified under Pilate while Caiaphas was also in power.


His life meant little, it was his perceived sacrifice in the temple that started the martyrdom that made him famous IMHO.



What these other uneducated people are addressing is their own bias. Without a replacement hypothesis to explain this evidence they are blowing in the wind making a lot of noise.

The current hypothesis stands and fits 100% leaving no questions. Everything conclusion they bring to the table not only has it been refuted for a hundred years, but raises more questions then answers.

Its why Jesus has historicity that stands. These people just wont accept the status quo, from the most part due to ignorance in these studies.
[/QUOTE] The 'replacement hypothesis' nonsense is just laughably transparant strawmanning.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Jesus didn't replace John anyway, the Bible is constantly making distinctions between them.
What I mean is that asking for a replacement hypothesis is rather absurd - the claim that Jesus was historical is a hypothesis, the alternate position - which is that the historicity of Jesus has not been established is already a better explanation of the available data. Essentially doubt is a better explanation than is certainty in Jesus historicity.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
What I mean is that asking for a replacement hypothesis is rather absurd - the claim that Jesus was historical is a hypothesis, the alternate position - which is that the historicity of Jesus has not been established is already a better explanation of the available data. Essentially doubt is a better explanation than is certainty in Jesus historicity.
Sure, could be. I don't know why people love to think that the ''Rabbi'' etc is real, but half the other text is false.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Sure, could be. I don't know why people love to think that the ''Rabbi'' etc is real, but half the other text is false.
What is real and what is a later addition or myth is not really knowable. The best explanation of the evidence (inferences to the best explanation being the core of historical research into antiquity) is simply that it is likely Jesus was based upon one or more real people. No greater certainty is historically tenable although holding a faith belief in this case is reasonable.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
What is real and what is a later addition or myth is not really knowable. The best explanation of the evidence (inferences to the best explanation being the core of historical research into antiquity) is simply that it is likely Jesus was based upon one or more real people. No greater certainty is historically tenable although holding a faith belief in this case is reasonable.

Uh, I guess. We don't really have proof that Jesus was real. Also, was He a Rabbi, or a fisherman? That still confuses me. Part time fisherman?
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Uh, I guess. We don't really have proof that Jesus was real. Also, was He a Rabbi, or a fisherman? That still confuses me. Part time fisherman?
Well if he was a Rabbi - he would have to be married right? There are no unmarried Rabbis are there?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Well if he was a Rabbi - he would have to be married right? There are no unmarried Rabbis are there?
Yeah, theres issues. Because some people say that ''Mary Magdalene'' was his wife. I dunno. Seems like it would have been talked about more? See, people read the text, imo, with this expectation of a real person. If one reads the text without that expectation, it doesn't seem to me, to be so obvious. Then you have the Jewish perspective, which I know for sure, many think he was real. Just a rebellious Rabbi, as it were. So, it's hard to say.
Anyways, assumption of a 'real' Rabbi, and then all the other stuff is false, does not seem to me, to be very good scholarship. This is exactly the sort of thing that a careful scholarship tries to avoid.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Yeah, theres issues. Because some people say that ''Mary Magdalene'' was his wife. I dunno. Seems like it would have been talked about more? See, people read the text, imo, with this expectation of a real person. If one reads the text without that expectation, it doesn't seem to me, to be so obvious. Then you have the Jewish perspective, which I know for sure, many think he was real. Just a rebellious Rabbi, as it were. So, it's hard to say.
Anyways, assumption of a 'real' Rabbi, and then all the other stuff is false, does not seem to me, to be very good scholarship. This is exactly the sort of thing that a careful scholarship tries to avoid.
Interesting.
Ok - so maybe the explanation for nobody not mentioning his marriage is that everyone got married. Surely if Jesus was not married - THAT would be weird enough to be remarked on.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Interesting.
Ok - so maybe the explanation for nobody not mentioning his marriage is that everyone got married. Surely if Jesus was not married - THAT would be weird enough to be remarked on.
Yeah, I'm not sure. I know that the church got a lot of things incorrect, just a tad of research and it's obvious they were misinterpreting text like crazy. I would be very hesitant to 'believe' any official stance at this point.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Yeah, I'm not sure. I know that the church got a lot of things incorrect, just a tad of research and it's obvious they were misinterpreting text like crazy. I would be very hesitant to 'believe' any official stance at this point.
Well sure. You could look at much more recent examples - like Wallace the great Scottish hero to see how time, politics and hope can transform a story. Or Richard the Third.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Well sure. You could look at much more recent examples - like Wallace the great Scottish hero to see how time, politics and hope can transform a story. Or Richard the Third.
Not familiar with any problems with William Wallace...I haven't exactly read any history on him.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Yeah, theres issues. Because some people say that ''Mary Magdalene'' was his wife. I dunno. Seems like it would have been talked about more? See, people read the text, imo, with this expectation of a real person. If one reads the text without that expectation, it doesn't seem to me, to be so obvious. Then you have the Jewish perspective, which I know for sure, many think he was real. Just a rebellious Rabbi, as it were. So, it's hard to say.
Anyways, assumption of a 'real' Rabbi, and then all the other stuff is false, does not seem to me, to be very good scholarship. This is exactly the sort of thing that a careful scholarship tries to avoid.
I disagree it would have been talked about more. To lend credibility to the myth, Jesus had to be different. So painting him poor, unmarried, etc, would,have heightened his story.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Not familiar with any problems with William Wallace...I haven't exactly read any history on him.
An interesting character, if we beleive the hype about him. He was a leader to the scots who died screaming for Scotland's freedom from English rule. Again, that may be myth.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
Well if he was a Rabbi - he would have to be married right? There are no unmarried Rabbis are there?
Don't know. Also don't know that the term meant the same in antiquity that it does now. The idea of the rabbinate is one that evolved over time. If you take it to be the equivalent of guru, then the only real requirement is that some people think of you that way and choose to follow your teachings.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
What is real and what is a later addition or myth is not really knowable. The best explanation of the evidence (inferences to the best explanation being the core of historical research into antiquity) is simply that it is likely Jesus was based upon one or more real people. No greater certainty is historically tenable although holding a faith belief in this case is reasonable.
Some of the myths can be identified as later additions by the fact that they don't get mentioned before a certain point, by people who would have mentioned them. That's a lot of them, actually. The slaughter of the innocents, the clearing of the temple, the royal procession into Jerusalem—stuff like that would have been mentioned by a writer like Josephus, who mentions plenty of more trivial stuff along those lines, but they're not. The miracles, the virgin birth, etc., aren't mentioned by Paul, who would done so if they'd been part of the tradition in his day. In short, a lot of the events in the familiar Jesus narrative don't appear until near the end of the 1st century.

When you strip away all that stuff, what are you left with? There was a guy from Nazareth in Galilee who became an itinerant prophet figure and probably Messiah claimant for a short time before being crucified, after which his followers carried on his legacy and eventually became an identifiable movement within Judaism, then a separate group altogether as they and the more orthodox strains of Judaism developed a mutually antagonistic relationship. Most historians don't doubt that Jesus of Nazareth existed and got the ball rolling, but even two or three generations after his death, there's very little genuine biographical information available on him, so his followers fill in the gaps with a lot of mythic and midrashic content. Even then the historical Jesus was less important than the living Christ.

I think these discussions often end up with a false dichotomy, when it's entirely plausible both that Jesus was a real guy and that very little of the familiar narrative about his life is factual. The ancient biographies of kings and emperors are similarly mythologized, and those are people for whom there were good records by the standards of the day. If Jesus was really a poor fellow from Nazareth, it would be astonishing if we had any real biographical data on him. At the same time, we ought to be very careful about assuming that poor people from dinky little villages never existed just because there's no real documentary evidence on them. It does make them problematic as historical figures in the academic sense, though.
 
Last edited:

steeltoes

Junior member
Some of the myths can be identified as later additions by the fact that they don't get mentioned before a certain point, by people who would have mentioned them. That's a lot of them, actually. The slaughter of the innocents, the clearing of the temple, the royal procession into Jerusalem—stuff like that would have been mentioned by a writer like Josephus, who mentions plenty of more trivial stuff along those lines, but they're not. The miracles, the virgin birth, etc., aren't mentioned by Paul, who would done so if they'd been part of the tradition in his day. In short, a lot of the events in the familiar Jesus narrative don't appear until near the end of the 1st century.

When you strip away all that stuff, what are you left with? There was a guy from Nazareth in Galilee who became an itinerant prophet figure and probably Messiah claimant for a short time before being crucified, after which his followers carried on his legacy and eventually became an identifiable movement within Judaism, then a separate group altogether as they and the more orthodox strains of Judaism developed a mutually antagonistic relationship. Most historians don't doubt that Jesus of Nazareth existed and got the ball rolling, but even two or three generations after his death, there's very little genuine biographical information available on him, so his followers fill in the gaps with a lot of mythic and midrashic content. Even then the historical Jesus was less important than the living Christ.

I think these discussions often end up with a false dichotomy, when it's entirely plausible both that Jesus was a real guy and that very little of the familiar narrative about his life is factual. The ancient biographies of kings and emperors are similarly mythologized, and those are people for whom there were good records by the standards of the day. If Jesus was really a poor fellow from Nazareth, it would be astonishing if we had any real biographical data on him. At the same time, we ought to be very careful about assuming that poor people from dinky little villages never existed just because there's no real documentary evidence on them. It does make them problematic as historical figures in the academic sense, though.
None of the epistle writers including Paul mention Nazareth or Galilee, nor do any of them mention disciples. The gospel writers were the first to write of such things. The purpose of midrash is not to record history, in other words, midrashic content is not historical content.
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Didn't Rabbi's have to write something ?
Like sermons and such ?
Psalms and prayers to their God ?
~
I don't know...just asking !
~
'mud
 
Top