Did Jesus and St. Paul taught contradictory things?

[pearl]

You can't tell me that the Bible is not a divine book.

I never stated that it was not divine. I never stated it was not 'God breathed. What I did state is that God did not dictate and the
humans who penned were not robots taking dictation.

You also can't tell me that the Bible has a temporary message. A passage of Scripture cannot mean today what it did not mean then. The message that was preached back then still applies today. And although the Bible's message isn't always literal it is authoritative.

Sacred Scripture is a living tradition given by a living God. It must be interpreted as to what it means in the life of the church today.
Otherwise it would belong in a museum.

 

[RedDragon94]

I never stated that it was not divine. I never stated it was not 'God breathed. What I did state is that God did not dictate and the
humans who penned were not robots taking dictation.



Sacred Scripture is a living tradition given by a living God. It must be interpreted as to what it means in the life of the church today.
Otherwise it would belong in a museum.

So does that mean that God changes if the message of the Bible does? You see, God and his word are synonymous.

 

[pearl]

Lastly, an interpretation is not a translation.

That is a good point. Translating from Hebrew to Greek is one thing, the difficulty is understanding the mindset, especially from,
Hebrew to Greek philosophy. Its interesting to read an interpretation of Matthew's Gospel, as the author wrote in Hebrew, by a
Jewish scholar.

Certainly God does not change, however, our understanding is never complete.

 

[nothead]

Unfortunately yes, they taught quite different things:

Jesus in his parables says that works are what saves us and not faith\obedience.
In other words, you can be an Atheist, but if you do God's will through works, you save yourself. This parable proves it:
"But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first, and said, 'Son, go work in my vineyard.' He answered, 'I will not,' but afterward he changed his mind, and went. He came to the second, and said the same thing. He answered, 'I go, sir,' but he didn't go. Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said to him, "The first. — Matthew 21:28–32,


Paul in Romans, chapter 3, claims that we are saved by believing in Jesus' sacrifice for us and that works are useless.

To answer your questions, the answer is yes. Jesus was right and Paul was wrong. To save yourself you must stop sinning, by obeying the Mosaic law

Quite wrong. John also said the Work of God's righteousness is to believe on the Christ first.

Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 16

 

[Estro Felino]

Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 16

...which means that we earn our salvation by our merits. it says work of God, not salvation.
To believe in Jesus means to act like him.
Not to believe that he died for Us.

 

[nothead]

...which means that we earn our salvation by our merits. it says work of God, not salvation.
To believe in Jesus means to act like him.
Not to believe that he died for Us.

John the Apostle has Jesus saying my verse, sir.

You are wrong, the Work of God starts with God. But we have to respond in faith to the initial drawing of God.

Jn 6, SAME author who by the way is not Paul:

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Yes]

When Jesus gave the sermon on the mount I think it was his wish that Christians should follow the Mosaic law word to word till heaven and earth exists but most Christians today cite St. Paul to escape from following the Jewish Law. Did Jesus and St. Paul taught different things?

Paul taught what Jesus taught.

Jesus did not come to abolish the law, he fulfilled it.

The law with works is about having to be circumcised, and having to adhere to a dietary law, and observe special days, and do various external washings, and sacrifice animals.

Those works are the things the Jews used to have to do just to worship God. Those works were teaching tools. Those works were a shadow of what was coming. Those works were about Jesus.

The Law said to circumcise the flesh for a sign of faith. Jesus fulfilled that Law to us we do not have to circumcise ourselves in the flesh, because the Holy Spirit circumcises our hearts, the Holy Spirit is the sign of our faith.

The Law commanded various external washings, to make ourselves clean. Jesus fulfilled that Law for us---his blood makes us clean, once and for all.

The Law commanded that we observe special days. Jesus fulfilled that Law, because ALL those special days are about Jesus, when we observe Jesus, we observe those special days---Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Jesus is our Passover, etc.

The Law said blood must be shed for the forgiveness of sins, we were told to give animal sacrifices. Jesus fulfilled that Law, because he is the Sacrificial Lamb of God.

See, Jesus fulfilled the law. Since we have salvation through Jesus, it is a greater salvation. Is it greater to observe the Son of God instead of special days? Is it better to be cleaned by the blood of God than by animals? Is it better to be circumcised in the heart by the Holy Spirit, than with a physical circumcision done by the hands of men? The Jews had to do certain ceremonial things, just to go to the temple to worship God. Through Jesus, we are made clean, and we become the temple of the Living God. Circumcision, special days, various external washings, and the sacrifice of animals...these were all teachings tools, a shadow of what was coming, Jesus Christ.

 

[nothead]

Paul taught what Jesus taught.

Jesus did not come to abolish the law, he fulfilled it.

The law with works is about having to be circumcised, and having to adhere to a dietary law, and observe special days, and do various external washings, and sacrifice animals.

Those works are the things the Jews used to have to do just to worship God. Those works were teaching tools. Those works were a shadow of what was coming. Those works were about Jesus.

The Law said to circumcise the flesh for a sign of faith. Jesus fulfilled that Law to us we do not have to circumcise ourselves in the flesh, because the Holy Spirit circumcises our hearts, the Holy Spirit is the sign of our faith.

The Law commanded various external washings, to make ourselves clean. Jesus fulfilled that Law for us---his blood makes us clean, once and for all.

The Law commanded that we observe special days. Jesus fulfilled that Law, because ALL those special days are about Jesus, when we observe Jesus, we observe those special days---Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Jesus is our Passover, etc.

The Law said blood must be shed for the forgiveness of sins, we were told to give animal sacrifices. Jesus fulfilled that Law, because he is the Sacrificial Lamb of God.

See, Jesus fulfilled the law. Since we have salvation through Jesus, it is a greater salvation. Is it greater to observe the Son of God instead of special days? Is it better to be cleaned by the blood of God than by animals? Is it better to be circumcised in the heart by the Holy Spirit, than with a physical circumcision done by the hands of men? The Jews had to do certain ceremonial things, just to go to the temple to worship God. Through Jesus, we are made clean, and we become the temple of the Living God. Circumcision, special days, various external washings, and the sacrifice of animals...these were all teachings tools, a shadow of what was coming, Jesus Christ.

You were made clean conditionally, so that you will not sin again, said to the adulterous woman. Clean indeed, so as not to sin, not of ceremonial law, or sabbath law or food law or festival law...but that ye sin not against the Core Law of Moses, the Ten, the Golden Rule but especially the Shema.

As Jesus released this woman, so are you released into Covenant, New Covenant, that ye may WANT to do Shema, to love your God with all of you.

 

[Yes]

You were made clean conditionally, so that you will not sin again, said to the adulterous woman. Clean indeed, so as not to sin, not of ceremonial law, or sabbath law or food law or festival law...but that ye sin not against the Core Law of Moses, the Ten, the Golden Rule but especially the Shema.

As Jesus released this woman, so are you released into Covenant, New Covenant, that ye may WANT to do Shema, to love your God with all of you.

Paul taught what Jesus taught.
Jesus did not come to abolish the law, he fulfilled it.
The law with works is about having to be circumcised, and having to adhere to a dietary law, and observe special days, and do various external washings, and sacrifice animals.
Those works are the things the Jews used to have to do just to worship God. Those works were teaching tools. Those works were a shadow of what was coming. Those works were about Jesus.
The Law said to circumcise the flesh for a sign of faith. Jesus fulfilled that Law to us we do not have to circumcise ourselves in the flesh, because the Holy Spirit circumcises our hearts, the Holy Spirit is the sign of our faith.
The Law commanded various external washings, to make ourselves clean. Jesus fulfilled that Law for us---his blood makes us clean, once and for all.
The Law commanded that we observe special days. Jesus fulfilled that Law, because ALL those special days are about Jesus, when we observe Jesus, we observe those special days---Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Jesus is our Passover, etc.
The Law said blood must be shed for the forgiveness of sins, we were told to give animal sacrifices. Jesus fulfilled that Law, because he is the Sacrificial Lamb of God.
See, Jesus fulfilled the law. Since we have salvation through Jesus, it is a greater salvation. Is it greater to observe the Son of God instead of special days? Is it better to be cleaned by the blood of God than by animals? Is it better to be circumcised in the heart by the Holy Spirit, than with a physical circumcision done by the hands of men? The Jews had to do certain ceremonial things, just to go to the temple to worship God. Through Jesus, we are made clean, and we become the temple of the Living God. Circumcision, special days, various external washings, and the sacrifice of animals...these were all teachings tools, a shadow of what was coming, Jesus Christ.

 

[nothead]

Paul taught what Jesus taught.
Jesus did not come to abolish the law, he fulfilled it.
The law with works is about having to be circumcised, and having to adhere to a dietary law, and observe special days, and do various external washings, and sacrifice animals.
Those works are the things the Jews used to have to do just to worship God. Those works were teaching tools. Those works were a shadow of what was coming. Those works were about Jesus.
The Law said to circumcise the flesh for a sign of faith. Jesus fulfilled that Law to us we do not have to circumcise ourselves in the flesh, because the Holy Spirit circumcises our hearts, the Holy Spirit is the sign of our faith.
The Law commanded various external washings, to make ourselves clean. Jesus fulfilled that Law for us---his blood makes us clean, once and for all.
The Law commanded that we observe special days. Jesus fulfilled that Law, because ALL those special days are about Jesus, when we observe Jesus, we observe those special days---Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Jesus is our Passover, etc.
The Law said blood must be shed for the forgiveness of sins, we were told to give animal sacrifices. Jesus fulfilled that Law, because he is the Sacrificial Lamb of God.
See, Jesus fulfilled the law. Since we have salvation through Jesus, it is a greater salvation. Is it greater to observe the Son of God instead of special days? Is it better to be cleaned by the blood of God than by animals? Is it better to be circumcised in the heart by the Holy Spirit, than with a physical circumcision done by the hands of men? The Jews had to do certain ceremonial things, just to go to the temple to worship God. Through Jesus, we are made clean, and we become the temple of the Living God. Circumcision, special days, various external washings, and the sacrifice of animals...these were all teachings tools, a shadow of what was coming, Jesus Christ.

A better way of seeing this is that CORE Law of Moses has not changed. Remember that when Moses ended his walk, only the Ten and the Shema were given. This is Core Law and all other Law hinges or falls below this Law. And Jesus indeed did not come to break CORE Law, although for the Pharisees he broke technical law, since they thought like lawyers and not spiritual men. The same thing can be said of modern theologians, who say to break an itty bitty law is to break ALL of God's Law. This is not the case, as all Jews knew the difference between the more important laws and the lesser laws, if they were indeed spiritual. I encountered this very same thing last week on another forum whereby an expert of law, or self-professed said that to lust with the eye is the same thing as the physical act of adultery. This makes less than little sense. Everyone knows that to lust in your heart is sin, yet to enact this lust is very much worse.

Hint: All hard sayings of Jesus fall under Shema, even as Abraham prioritized his love for God even over his own beloved son. And he was said to be justified by faith, by Paul himself. And the Shema was not given in letter at this time. Abraham knew it in his heart, even before God gave it in letter.

 

[nothead]

Paul taught what Jesus taught.

Jesus did not come to abolish the law, he fulfilled it.

The law with works is about having to be circumcised, and having to adhere to a dietary law, and observe special days, and do various external washings, and sacrifice animals.

Those works are the things the Jews used to have to do just to worship God. Those works were teaching tools. Those works were a shadow of what was coming. Those works were about Jesus.

The Law said to circumcise the flesh for a sign of faith. Jesus fulfilled that Law to us we do not have to circumcise ourselves in the flesh, because the Holy Spirit circumcises our hearts, the Holy Spirit is the sign of our faith.

The Law commanded various external washings, to make ourselves clean. Jesus fulfilled that Law for us---his blood makes us clean, once and for all.

The Law commanded that we observe special days. Jesus fulfilled that Law, because ALL those special days are about Jesus, when we observe Jesus, we observe those special days---Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Jesus is our Passover, etc.

The Law said blood must be shed for the forgiveness of sins, we were told to give animal sacrifices. Jesus fulfilled that Law, because he is the Sacrificial Lamb of God.

See, Jesus fulfilled the law. Since we have salvation through Jesus, it is a greater salvation. Is it greater to observe the Son of God instead of special days? Is it better to be cleaned by the blood of God than by animals? Is it better to be circumcised in the heart by the Holy Spirit, than with a physical circumcision done by the hands of men? The Jews had to do certain ceremonial things, just to go to the temple to worship God. Through Jesus, we are made clean, and we become the temple of the Living God. Circumcision, special days, various external washings, and the sacrifice of animals...these were all teachings tools, a shadow of what was coming, Jesus Christ.

Paul said numerous times that sinners will not inherit Heaven. These verses are ignored by mod-terp concerning the new dichotomy between "works and faith." For the Jew, there is no difference between acting and the right mental attitude.
True acts come from faith, as "faith" is a holistic and mega-word which means more than just mental affirmation.

You are not cleansed for all time, upon initially accepting Christ as propitiator and mediator. You are made whole at once, and completely enough to now Covenant with God. IF you should sin significantly enough in your destiny, you in fact are not clean anymore, but again in need of the same cleansing you had at the beginning. This is what John meant when he says your original advocate is still your succeeding Advocate.

As an example of faith and works being the same process, understand that the woman with issue of blood not only BELIEVED Jesus could heal her of her affliction, she also pushed through the crowds and grabbed ahold of what she saw in faith. Had she not touched his tzit-tzit, she in fact may well have not received the blessing of her lifetime.

 

[Yes]

A better way of seeing this is that CORE Law of Moses has not changed. Remember that when Moses ended his walk, only the Ten and the Shema were given. This is Core Law and all other Law hinges or falls below this Law. And Jesus indeed did not come to break CORE Law, although for the Pharisees he broke technical law, since they thought like lawyers and not spiritual men. The same thing can be said of modern theologians, who say to break an itty bitty law is to break ALL of God's Law. This is not the case, as all Jews knew the difference between the more important laws and the lesser laws, if they were indeed spiritual. I encountered this very same thing last week on another forum whereby an expert of law, or self-professed said that to lust with the eye is the same thing as the physical act of adultery. This makes less than little sense. Everyone knows that to lust in your heart is sin, yet to enact this lust is very much worse.

Hint: All hard sayings of Jesus fall under Shema, even as Abraham prioritized his love for God even over his own beloved son. And he was said to be justified by faith, by Paul himself. And the Shema was not given in letter at this time. Abraham knew it in his heart, even before God gave it in letter.

Maybe you will reap understanding from reading this?

We are to obey the Royal Law. The Royal Law is to love your neighbor as yourself. How do we love our neighbor as ourselves? We do them no harm. The whole Bible is a teaching on HOW TO LOVE. If you say you obey the Royal Law by loving your neighbor, do you steal from them? No. Do you commit adultery with their spouse? No. Do you bear false witness against them? No. Do you murder them? No. What if you do all these things right, but fail on any one of them? THEN YOU ARE GUILTY OF BREAKING THE WHOLE ROYAL LAW OF LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.

Again, observing special days is nothing anymore. Observing Jesus is everything. We live a life of love, and that is how we keep all Jesus' teachings. We have all the written Word to help us on how to love, if there was any question about it.
Study these scriptures:

James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

James 2:11 For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[Yes]

Paul said numerous times that sinners will not inherit Heaven. These verses are ignored by mod-terp concerning the new dichotomy between "works and faith." For the Jew, there is no difference between acting and the right mental attitude.
True acts come from faith, as "faith" is a holistic and mega-word which means more than just mental affirmation.

You are not cleansed for all time, upon initially accepting Christ as propitiator and mediator. You are made whole at once, and completely enough to now Covenant with God. IF you should sin significantly enough in your destiny, you in fact are not clean anymore, but again in need of the same cleansing you had at the beginning. This is what John meant when he says your original advocate is still your succeeding Advocate.

As an example of faith and works being the same process, understand that the woman with issue of blood not only BELIEVED Jesus could heal her of her affliction, she also pushed through the crowds and grabbed ahold of what she saw in faith. Had she not touched his tzit-tzit, she in fact may well have not received the blessing of her lifetime.

It sounds as if you agree with me here.

 

[nothead]

Maybe you will reap understanding from reading this?

We are to obey the Royal Law. The Royal Law is to love your neighbor as yourself. How do we love our neighbor as ourselves? We do them no harm. The whole Bible is a teaching on HOW TO LOVE. If you say you obey the Royal Law by loving your neighbor, do you steal from them? No. Do you commit adultery with their spouse? No. Do you bear false witness against them? No. Do you murder them? No. What if you do all these things right, but fail on any one of them? THEN YOU ARE GUILTY OF BREAKING THE WHOLE ROYAL LAW OF LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.

Again, observing special days is nothing anymore. Observing Jesus is everything. We live a life of love, and that is how we keep all Jesus' teachings. We have all the written Word to help us on how to love, if there was any question about it.
Study these scriptures:

James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

James 2:11 For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

The difference is...is that this so-called ROYAL Law is only the Shema. But it is to God first, as Abraham knew, but you do not, since you would probably put your own beloved children before God. NOT the faith of Abraham, sir.

Shema IS the Law of Love. But first to God, who comes first in the proper channel of authority.

The Golden Rule of Love is the second command in Mk 12, not the first command of Jesus.

 

[nothead]

N/t

 

[Yes]

The difference is...is that this so-called ROYAL Law is only the Shema. But it is to God first, as Abraham knew, but you do not, since you would probably put your own beloved children before God. NOT the faith of Abraham, sir.

Shema IS the Law of Love. But first to God, who comes first in the proper channel of authority.

The Golden Rule of Love is the second command in Mk 12, not the first command of Jesus.

Why are you pretending to be a Jew?

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

When Jesus gave the sermon on the mount I think it was his wish that Christians should follow the Mosaic law word to word till heaven and earth exists but most Christians today cite St. Paul to escape from following the Jewish Law. Did Jesus and St. Paul taught different things?

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Paul. But the law he is referencing is not Mosaic law. Rather it is the law of God, the royal law, that has been added after Jesus ascension. The punitive for infraction of the royal law is higher than the Mosaic code though.

 

[nothead]

Why are you pretending to be a Jew?

A grafted-in Gentile cannot speak from fundamental Judaism?

 

[nothead]

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Paul. But the law he is referencing is not Mosaic law. Rather it is the law of God, the royal law, that has been added after Jesus ascension. The punitive for infraction of the royal law is higher than the Mosaic code though.

Where is ROYAL LAW in the Bible? Or are you making something up? You and Yes going to the same Assembly or what?

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Where is ROYAL LAW in the Bible? Or are you making something up? You and Yes going to the same Assembly or what?

Response to question 1, See Jas. 2:8 KJV & NIV
I don't quite understand your second question. If it is 'asking' what my religious affiliation is; I am not affiliated with nor do I support or endorse any contemporary religious organization or any contemporary soteriological assumption pontificated by any of these organizations. Do my statements answer what you are asking?