Did Jesus become Son of God in 313 AD?

[Djamila]

My neice asked me a question I really can't answer.

We both learned in school that Jesus was declared the Son of God by Constantine, Emperor of the Roman Empire, and we've both learned this was of solidifying the Roman Empire in that it demonstrated that the Jews killed the Son of God and allowed for persecution against them to keep people's minds off problems at home. The other option on the table was declaring him an ordinary, holy man. This was supported by many Christians of the time, but was cast aside by Constantine because it could allow for additional holy men to rise and challenge the Emperor's rule.

Now, her question is did the trinity exist before this declaration, or was a result of it?

 

[Radio Frequency X]

My neice asked me a question I really can't answer.

We both learned in school that Jesus was declared the Son of God by Constantine, Emperor of the Roman Empire, and we've both learned this was of solidifying the Roman Empire in that it demonstrated that the Jews killed the Son of God and allowed for persecution against them to keep people's minds off problems at home. The other option on the table was declaring him an ordinary, holy man. This was supported by many Christians of the time, but was cast aside by Constantine because it could allow for additional holy men to rise and challenge the Emperor's rule.

Now, her question is did the trinity exist before this declaration, or was a result of it?

It did exist before hand amongst many small Christian cults, especially the ones that rejected Jewish law. However, the earlier Christian church more closely represented Messianic Judaism than post Constantine Christianity. However, before the 4th century there was no widespread Christian authority, so you won't be able to find one answer that fits all the various Christian cults.

 

[Djamila]

It did exist before hand amongst many small Christian cults, especially the ones that rejected Jewish law. However, the earlier Christian church more closely represented Messianic Judaism than post Constantine Christianity. However, before the 4th century there was no widespread Christian authority, so you won't be able to find one answer that fits all the various Christian cults.

I suppose that's the answer, really.

I know a lot of non-Christians in the Roman Empire were annoyed that Constantine chose a "Jewish God", and there were a few... what would you call it? Outburts? Of short-lived cults revolving around new Roman Gods but none of them took hold.

I know also it was the Christians in Egypt, so-called Monophysites or whatever, who were most happy to see the declaration that Jesus was Son of God because that's what they believed, and were also a Semitic people so it wasn't completely foreign to them.

But there we go.

I'll just tell her it existed with some groups and not with others, but as the church unified and grew, it grew under the view that Jesus is Son of God?

 

[Comprehend]

If you believe the bible to be accurate, then there isn't really much question that Jesus was the Son of God.

 

[Djamila]

If you believe the bible to be accurate, then there isn't really much question that Jesus was the Son of God.

All this took place before there was a Bible, though, didn't it?

 

[Radio Frequency X]

I'll just tell her it existed with some groups and not with others, but as the church unified and grew, it grew under the view that Jesus is Son of God?

I think that would be the most honest and accurate answer. Here is a link that might help you out. Took me a while to find it amongst my many bookmarks.

The Jesus Movements 7 BCE to 170 CE

It should help explain where there was no universal Christian authority.

Here is a timeline of Christian Doctrine with regard to the support of the Trinity and what influenced it.

 

[Katzpur]

We both learned in school that Jesus was declared the Son of God by Constantine, Emperor of the Roman Empire, and we've both learned this was of solidifying the Roman Empire in that it demonstrated that the Jews killed the Son of God and allowed for persecution against them to keep people's minds off problems at home. The other option on the table was declaring him an ordinary, holy man. This was supported by many Christians of the time, but was cast aside by Constantine because it could allow for additional holy men to rise and challenge the Emperor's rule.

Constantine may very well have declared Jesus Christ to be the Son of God. I have declared Him to be the Son of God, as have millions. I find it quite amusing, however, to think that Constantine's opinion on the matter is even worth considering. He was hardly in a position to be able to state with any authority whatsoever on the parentage of Jesus Christ. Thousands upon thousands of men and women. moreover, believed Him to be the Son of God long before Constantine came upon the scene.

Now, her question is did the trinity exist before this declaration, or was a result of it?

The doctrine of the Trinity was established in 325 A.D. I'm sure there were some individuals present at the Council at Nicaea to whom Constantine's opinion mattered. Why, I'll never know.

 

[Djamila]

I assume we can discard the Old Testament in this regard, as if I understand correctly the Bible as it speaks of Jesus as the Son of God is solely the New Testament. Now, the first printing of the New Testament was in Greece in 1516. Desiderius Erasmus compiled that edition of the New Testament.

The New Testament which forms the basis of most Bibles today, though, was compiled in Paris in 1550.

Both of these compilations for the New Testament were compiled using mainly Greek manuscripts from the 1400s, but the French edition was revised in the 1800s to include ancient texts from the 4th century as well - but even these, for the most part, were compiled after the 313 AD declaration. Some of these manuscripts, though, were even older than that - but I have no idea if they're where Son of God comes from.

 

[Djamila]

Constantine may very well have declared Jesus Christ to be the Son of God. I have declared Him to be the Son of God, as have millions. I find it quite amusing, however, to think that Constantine's opinion on the matter is even worth considering. He was hardly in a position to be able to state with any authority whatsoever on the parentage of Jesus Christ. Thousands upon thousands of men and women. moreover, believed Him to be the Son of God long before Constantine came upon the scene.

Well, it's not really the same thing. Constantine was deciding the future of Christianity, literally - you're just reaffirming your Christian beliefs.

I can say Muhammed is the last prophet, but that doesn't make it the same as the Koran saying it - as I believe.

The doctrine of the Trinity was established in 325 A.D. I'm sure there were some individuals present at the Council at Nicaea to whom Constantine's opinion mattered. Why, I'll never know.

By established, what do you mean? Written... universally accepted... clarified... or decided from scratch?

 

[Radio Frequency X]

I assume we can discard the Old Testament in this regard, as if I understand correctly the Bible as it speaks of Jesus as the Son of God is solely the New Testament. Now, the first printing of the New Testament was in Greece in 1516. Desiderius Erasmus compiled that edition of the New Testament.

The New Testament which forms the basis of most Bibles today, though, was compiled in Paris in 1550.

Both of these compilations for the New Testament were compiled using mainly Greek manuscripts from the 1400s, but the French edition was revised in the 1800s to include ancient texts from the 4th century as well - but even these, for the most part, were compiled after the 313 AD declaration. Some of these manuscripts, though, were even older than that - but I have no idea if they're where Son of God comes from.

I was under the impression that the first complete New Testiment was produced in 380 A.D. as The Latin Vulgate, translated by St. Jerome.

 

[Djamila]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_hisb.htmHere is a timeline of Christian Doctrine with regard to the support of the Trinity and what influenced it.

Well, that clearly prooves there were many Christians who believed he was the Son of God prior to the declaration. What is the basis for this belief? Did it come from them? Did it come from... from where?

It couldn't have just sprung up in little pockets around the Christian world in those days, could it? That makes me think there must be some older reference which passed between these places - be it a paper, or a person, or something.

 

[Djamila]

I was under the impression that the first complete New Testiment was produced in 380 A.D. as The Latin Vulgate, translated by St. Jerome.

That's a new testament? Oh wow! I missed that, and you'll be surprised:

St. Jerome was Bosnian. Well, Bosnia didn't exist at that time but he's from Blagaj, I think, in southern Bosnia. There's a big statue of him and a little RC chapel.

 

[Djamila]

Found it:

Jerome was born at Stridon, on the border between Pannonia and Dalmatia (most likely modern Grahovo polje in Bosnia and Herzegovina), in the second quarter of the fourth century.

 

[Radio Frequency X]

Well, that clearly prooves there were many Christians who believed he was the Son of God prior to the declaration. What is the basis for this belief? Did it come from them? Did it come from... from where?

Most people would argue that it came from the teachings of Jesus Christ himself, however, I personally see it as being an assumption made by the pagan gentiles. A Godman would have been familiar to the Greeks, Romans, and Coptic Egyptians. The idea of a Jewish Messiah, a kind of military leader that would bring the Jews to power in Palestine would have meant nothing to them. But a message of love and a personal relationship with a monotheistic personality, offering redemption and hope, brought by a Godman would have made much more sense to the traditionally pagan territories.

It couldn't have just sprung up in little pockets around the Christian world in those days, could it? That makes me think there must be some older reference which passed between these places - be it a paper, or a person, or something.

There are many passages in the Bible which have been translated to argue that Jesus was God, God's Son, and God's Word. You can take your pick really.

 

[Djamila]

There are many passages in the Bible which have been translated to argue that Jesus was God, God's Son, and God's Word. You can take your pick really.

True, but apparently it was a common expression for someone of good character at the time. I think even Mary, a female, is called Son of God in some of the older texts, isn't she?

 

[Radio Frequency X]

True, but apparently it was a common expression for someone of good character at the time. I think even Mary, a female, is called Son of God in some of the older texts, isn't she?

True. And, there is the curious fact that Jesus said we were all Sons of God. I never read anything that said Christ was God. Sadly, I'm not well studied enough in Judaism to speak to the meaning of the original Greek texts - otherwise I'd just go see what the oldest records say and how they were translated. Maybe one of the Jews on the board could give a better understanding of what these phrases meant 2,000 years ago.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

It did exist before hand amongst many small Christian cults, especially the ones that rejected Jewish law. However, the earlier Christian church more closely represented Messianic Judaism than post Constantine Christianity. However, before the 4th century there was no widespread Christian authority, so you won't be able to find one answer that fits all the various Christian cults.

You said it in a nutshell brother. :clap:clap

 

[James the Persian]

What on earth did they teach you at school? Constantine did not make any such declaration in 313AD. There is no doubt of that. What he did do in 313 was produce the Edict of Milan which officially tolerated and ended the persecution of Christians. That is all, he did not make it the state religion (that wasn't done until the reign of Theodosius in the late 4th century).

He certainly made no theological statements whatsoever and, had he done so, the Church would inevitably have ignored him. They'd just weathered the worst persecution, under Diocletian, that they had ever suffered without compromise after all. Constantine did call Council of Nicea (in 325) at the urging of Christian bishops who were concerned about the new teachings of Arius, but the council did not invent the Trinity and Constantine did not make theology there either, he merely presided and used his secular power to enforce the results (despite initially being in favour of the Arians, which completely demolishes the usual arguments).

Neither the Orthodox party nor the Arians considered that there was anything to dispute about the divinity of Christ. Both considered him to have been the Son of God Incarnate. The dispute lay solely in whether or not the Son (and by implication the Holy Spirit, though this was not spelled out until the later problems leading to the calling of Constantinople I) was a created god. The Orthodox view was that He was begotten and not created, the Arian that He was a lesser god created by the Father (i.e. there was a time when He was not). The Trinity was not invented at Nicea. It wasn't even debated. What was debated was whether or not we had a Trinity in the Orthodox sense or something closer to the LDS view. It's quite easy to show Trinitarian references in the Ante-Nicene Fathers.

James

 

[Comprehend]

no. Jesus became the Son of God in 0 AD.

The bible is quite clear on His divinity.

Ps. 2: 7(Acts 13: 33; Heb. 1: 5; Heb. 5: 5) Thou art my Son. Isa. 7: 14 a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son. Isa. 9: 6 unto us a son is given. Matt. 3: 17(Matt. 17: 5; Mark 9: 7; Luke 9: 35; 2 Pet. 1: 17; ) This is my beloved Son. Matt. 4: 3(Matt. 4: 6; Matt. 26: 63; Matt. 27: 40; Luke 4: 3, 9; Luke 22: 70; ) if thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. Matt. 14: 33(Matt. 27: 54; Mark 3: 11; Mark 5: 7; Mark 15: 39; Luke 4: 41; Luke 8: 28; John 1: 34, 49; Rom. 1: 4; Gal. 2: 20; ) thou art the Son of God. Matt. 16: 16(John 6: 69; John 11: 27; ) Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Matt. 27: 43(John 10: 36; ) I am the Son of God. Matt. 28: 19nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son. Mark 1: 1(John 20: 31; Acts 8: 37; Acts 9: 20; 2 Cor. 1: 19; Heb. 4: 14; 1 Jn. 4: 15; 1 Jn. 5: 5; ) Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Mark 5: 7Jesus, thou Son of the most high God. Mark 14: 61Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed. Luke 1: 32called the Son of the Highest. Luke 1: 35 holy thing . . . born of thee shall be called the Son of God. John 1: 14 glory as of the only begotten of the Father. John 3: 16God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son. John 3: 35Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things. John 5: 26hath he given to the Son to have life in himself. John 9: 35(1 Jn. 5: 10, 13; ) Dost thou believe on the Son of God. John 11: 4Son of God might be glorified. John 14: 13that the Father may be glorified in the Son. John 17: 1Father . . . glorify thy Son. John 19: 7ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. John 20: 21as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. Acts 3: 13God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son. Acts 3: 26having raised up his Son Jesus. Acts 13: 33Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Rom. 8: 3God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. Rom. 8: 29to be conformed to the image of his Son. Rom. 8: 32He that spared not his own Son. Rom. 15: 6glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Gal. 4: 4God sent forth his Son. Eph. 4: 13(1 Jn. 5: 20) knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man. Col. 1: 13translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. 1 Thes. 1: 10to wait for his Son from heaven. Heb. 1: 2by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir. Heb. 5: 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience. 1 Jn. 2: 22antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 1 Jn. 3: 8For this purpose the Son of God was manifested. 1 Jn. 3: 23we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ. 1 Jn. 4: 10sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 Jn. 4: 14Father hath sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 Jn. 5: 11eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1 Jn. 5: 12he that hath the Son hath life.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I will say this. Jesus was not the son of god. There are a bunch of chapter and verses where he said it himself. I am my laptop and i'm too lazy to get that info. It's my day off so i will get them all later tonight.