Did Jesus bring a message of peace?

[columbus]

Thanks for the above, but I wish this was on a different forum than a DIR because I'm very familiar with why the peace churches look at this differently, and a real debate between what you're proposing and they would be interesting to see. However, ...

shalom

There are various aspects of this topic I would also like to discuss. Could it be moved or another one started?

Tom

 

[metis]

There are various aspects of this topic I would also like to discuss. Could it be moved or another one started?

Tom

Tom, if you start a new thread, I'll at least make a cameo appearance maybe once in a while.

 

[John Martin]

St.Paul says Christ came to proclaim peace and he himself is peace. How did he do that? By breaking down the wall of division and created one humanity in the place of two( Jews and Gentiles at that time). In this way he brought peace. The message of Jesus, the kingdom of God, breaks down all the dividing walls and creates one God, one creation and one humankind. Just there is only one earth and all the divisions on this earth are artificial and man made, so also there is only one humankind. All the divisions in the name of religions are human constructions, even though inspired and willed by God for human need. They are only provisional and need to be transcended. Jesus Christ transcended these barriers and saw the unity of mankind in one God. In this way his message was the message of peace. He had to face a violent death because his religious authorities preferred division than unity.

 

[metis]

He had to face a violent death because his religious authorities preferred division than unity.

OK, exactly how did the religious authorities supposedly prefer division? Secondly, who do you believe crucified Jesus and why?

 

[Thief]

I see some people have noticed His attitude.

He did bring a message of peace....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

You've never needed anything else or anything more.

As for the sword.....
Swords sever the living from the dead.

If you abide as intended....fine...no problem.
If you abide in a contrary manner.....

The angels carry swords.
At least they've been displayed that way....for centuries.

That he makes the statement that He came with a sword.
His Word....will do just that.

 

[metis]

Oops, I forgot that this was a Christian DIR thread, although I'm going to leave my questions as is unless the moderator thinks they should be removed. Sorry if I've overstepped the bounds.

 

[columbus]

St.Paul says Christ came to proclaim peace and he himself is peace. How did he do that? By breaking down the wall of division and created one humanity in the place of two( Jews and Gentiles at that time). In this way he brought peace. The message of Jesus, the kingdom of God, breaks down all the dividing walls and creates one God, one creation and one humankind. Just there is only one earth and all the divisions on this earth are artificial and man made, so also there is only one humankind. All the divisions in the name of religions are human constructions, even though inspired and willed by God for human need. They are only provisional and need to be transcended. Jesus Christ transcended these barriers and saw the unity of mankind in one God. In this way his message was the message of peace. He had to face a violent death because his religious authorities preferred division than unity.

Would you, thief, and the others be willing to discuss this in a forum I can be honest and clear in?

Tom

 

[John Martin]

OK, exactly how did the religious authorities supposedly prefer division? Secondly, who do you believe crucified Jesus and why?

The God experience of Jesus Christ transcended the God experience possible in Judaism. Judaism believed in a creator God. God is the creator and human beings are creatures of God. There is a gulf between God and human beings. God reveals his will through the prophets in the Law. Jews considered to be specially chosen people of God and considered that God was only their God so there was a wall between the Jews and the Gentiles.
Jesus Christ had an experience of God in which he realized that God does not create but manifests this creation. Human beings are not creatures of God but manifestations of God( sons and daughters of God). God is the God of the whole of creation and not just belong to one group of people. He experienced one God,one creation and one humanity. He called God as his Father or the source and he himself as the son of God.( The expressions Father and Son are more metaphorical than metaphysical. We project our physical realities as symbols of spiritual experiences) Human beings have the potential to grow in their relationship and realize being one with God.( Jesus said, the Father and I are one'.) Human beings have the potential to realize the indwelling presence of God (Jesus said, I am in the Father and Father in me). Human beings have the potential to outgrow the external law and discover the law written in the heart. Jesus said, 'It is written in the Law but I say unto you' and 'I am the way, the truth and the life'. These are the expressions of the New Covenant that God promised to the Jewish people. The God experience of Jesus broke down all the dividing walls and initiated one God, one creation and one human kind.Jesus Christ invited his spiritual tradition to grow into this new vision but promised by God through the prophets.
This experience which Jesus had was incompatible with the Jewish vision of divine human relationship. It is a blasphemy. His vision was a threat to the exclusive Jewish vision. The spiritual authorities refused to accept Jesus' experience and his message. The penalty for blasphemy was death.
Who is responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus?

1. The crucifixion of Jesus was the consequence of Jesus' refusal to deny his spiritual experience and vision. If he had denied his experience he would not have been crucified. If Jesus would have denied his experience then he would have closed the door for the spiritual evolution of humanity.So Jesus made a conscious choice to accept death for the spiritual evolution of humanity, for the unity of mankind and for the liberation of humanity from all the oppressive structures, religious, social, economical,political and ecological.
In this sense Jesus was responsible for his crucifixion and death.
2. The crucifixion and death of Jesus was the consequence of the refusal on the part of the Jewish spiritual leaders to grow into the higher divine-human relationship. They wanted to remain faithful to their traditional relationship with God. What Jesus experienced and said was a blasphemy. He was a subvert. Since Jews were under Roman occupation and they did not have the power to kill anyone( stoning to death) they approached the Roman authorities who allowed Jesus to be killed by crucifixion.

Jesus stood for growth, freedom,liberation and unity.
His spiritual authorities refused that.
Crucifixion did not happen only in the past it happens always.Whenever we refuse to grow in divine-human relationship; whenever we oppress people, socially, politically and economically and spiritually; whenever we build artificial dividing walls in the name of nationalities, religions and ethnic groups, we are crucifying Jesus Christ or Truth. Unity is Truth. Divisions are conditioned truths. Ultimately Unity alone triumphs. sathyameva jayathe.

 

[John Martin]

Points of clarification:

"Peace churches" would be the Mennonite, Amish, Society of Friends (Quakers), J.W.'s, and some others, which believe that deadly force should not be used even in self-defense, which is what they believe Jesus taught.

My second point of clarification is that what you say above has long been what Judaism taught both then and now (only a prophet or God directly could authorize a war of offense), and yet it seems that Jesus went beyond that in the direction of not using deadly force, therefore do you catch that change in tone as well? What does "turn the other cheek" and "be as harmless as doves" mean if not that?

When Jesus said,'turn the other cheek' he was not telling to be passive. Actions can from different identifications. Individual,collective and universal. The actions that come from the individual identification and collective identification are mere reactions and mechanical. Those who live in the universal consciousness live a creative life and respond creatively. The actions that come from creative source need not be passive and non-violent. These actions will be a creative response to the situation. It can be a violent action or non-violent, that is appropriate to the situation. Nothing is determined. So Jesus was not telling people to be non-violent but to be creative.
Be innocent as doves: Before that Jesus also says be cunning as serpent and then says be innocent as doves.
Serpent is the symbol of the life of ego, either individual or collective. The way we think and act depends on the identity we have about ourselves. The ego is defensive, manipulative and cunning.We can know this by listening to the questions people ask. Many persons put questions to Jesus but their motives were manipulative, to catch Jesus, to put Jesus into difficulties.
To be like a dove means to be innocent, to be empty, not having either individual ego or collective ego. It is universal. It has nothing to defend. it is not manipulative. Its answers always break down the barriers and bring peace. Its words are creative and liberating. This person also knows the tactics of the serpent,the ego.
So Jesus was telling to understand the dynamic of the serpent,the ego, but act from the dove, from the state of ego- less ness.
To show the other cheek has the similar meaning.
They both mean the same thing: living and acting from a higher level of consciousness, not from the fragmented ego consciousness. Whatever action comes from the ego-less consciousness is acceptable in the sight of God, whether it is a violent action or nonviolent action. It is a creative expression of the divine will for that particular moment or situation. These actions are not predetermined. When people put questions, Jesus always gave creative answers,which surprised people. He was living in the universal,boundless or ego less consciousness. Jesus invited people to grow into this consciousness and live from there.

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus Christ had an experience of God in which he realized that God does not create but manifests this creation.

Jahshuah was born of the Spirit.

Human beings are not creatures of God but manifestations of God( sons and daughters of God). God is the God of the whole of creation and not just belong to one group of people. He experienced one God,one creation and one humanity. He called God as his Father or the source and he himself as the son of God.( The expressions Father and Son are more metaphorical than metaphysical. We project our physical realities as symbols of spiritual experiences) Human beings have the potential to grow in their relationship and realize being one with God.( Jesus said, the Father and I are one'.)

We aren't Jahshuah, however. We are not the literal birth of the Spirit and /in His case/, Mary.

1. The crucifixion of Jesus was the consequence of Jesus' refusal to deny his spiritual experience and vision.

I'm not sure why you keep using that term 'experience'. He was with Spirit from birth. That is why He was worshipped by the three wise men.

Jesus stood for growth, freedom,liberation and unity.
His spiritual authorities refused that.
Crucifixion did not happen only in the past it happens always.Whenever we refuse to grow in divine-human relationship; whenever we oppress people, socially, politically and economically and spiritually; whenever we build artificial dividing walls in the name of nationalities, religions and ethnic groups, we are crucifying Jesus Christ or Truth. Unity is Truth. Divisions are conditioned truths. Ultimately Unity alone triumphs. sathyameva jayathe.[/

You mention crucifixion without mentioning resurrection. That's not the Narrative, in fact I created a thread regarding the crucifixion precisely because I've noticed this before, elsewhere with other peoples commentary.

 

[John Martin]

Jahshuah was born of the Spirit.


We aren't Jahshuah, however. We are not the literal birth of the Spirit and /in His case/, Mary.



I'm not sure why you keep using that term 'experience'. He was with Spirit from birth. That is why He was worshipped by the three wise men.


You mention crucifixion without mentioning resurrection. That's not the Narrative, in fact I created a thread regarding the crucifixion precisely because I've noticed this before, elsewhere with other peoples commentary.

Everyone is born of the spirit

Ever birth becomes a virgin birth if the parents are able to say, this child not our child but God's child



Jesus was the incarnation of God from birth but he had to become conscious of his divine incarnation which happened at the moment of his baptism. Otherwise the experience of baptism does not make sense.


There are two types of resurrection: resurrection before death and resurrection after death. Resurrection before death is awakening to the eternity within and realizing oneness with God.This happened to Jesus before his death at his baptism. Resurrection after death is the manifestation of the victory of truth or unity over divisions and the conditioned truths. It is the complete transformation of the physical body by the spirit of God.

 

[Windwalker]

When Jesus said,'turn the other cheek' he was not telling to be passive. Actions can from different identifications. Individual,collective and universal. The actions that come from the individual identification and collective identification are mere reactions and mechanical. Those who live in the universal consciousness live a creative life and respond creatively. The actions that come from creative source need not be passive and non-violent. These actions will be a creative response to the situation. It can be a violent action or non-violent, that is appropriate to the situation. Nothing is determined. So Jesus was not telling people to be non-violent but to be creative.
Be innocent as doves: Before that Jesus also says be cunning as serpent and then says be innocent as doves.
Serpent is the symbol of the life of ego, either individual or collective. The way we think and act depends on the identity we have about ourselves. The ego is defensive, manipulative and cunning.We can know this by listening to the questions people ask. Many persons put questions to Jesus but their motives were manipulative, to catch Jesus, to put Jesus into difficulties.
To be like a dove means to be innocent, to be empty, not having either individual ego or collective ego. It is universal. It has nothing to defend. it is not manipulative. Its answers always break down the barriers and bring peace. Its words are creative and liberating. This person also knows the tactics of the serpent,the ego.
So Jesus was telling to understand the dynamic of the serpent,the ego, but act from the dove, from the state of ego- less ness.
To show the other cheek has the similar meaning.
They both mean the same thing: living and acting from a higher level of consciousness, not from the fragmented ego consciousness. Whatever action comes from the ego-less consciousness is acceptable in the sight of God, whether it is a violent action or nonviolent action. It is a creative expression of the divine will for that particular moment or situation. These actions are not predetermined. When people put questions, Jesus always gave creative answers,which surprised people. He was living in the universal,boundless or ego less consciousness. Jesus invited people to grow into this consciousness and live from there.

My brother John! It is a pleasure to see you return. I was saddened to see you absent. Your thoughts expressed are refreshing to my soul. Welcome back. :bow:

 

[Desert Snake]

Everyone is born of the spirit

Ever birth becomes a virgin birth if the parents are able to say, this child not our child but God's child

This isn't what the Bible is saying. The bible clearly indicates a unique being from conception.

Jesus was the incarnation of God from birth but he had to become conscious of his divine incarnation which happened at the moment of his baptism. Otherwise the experience of baptism does not make sense.

This isn't Scriptural.

There are two types of resurrection: resurrection before death and resurrection after death. Resurrection before death is awakening to the eternity within and realizing oneness with God.This happened to Jesus before his death at his baptism. Resurrection after death is the manifestation of the victory of truth or unity over divisions and the conditioned truths. It is the complete transformation of the physical body by the spirit of God.

This isn't Scriptural.

Adios..

 

[heksesang]

This isn't what the Bible is saying. The bible clearly indicates a unique being from conception.

Actually, the Bible indicates that we are all brothers of Christ, and as a result all children of God in the same way he was. Also the Bible says that humans are created as an image of God, that means we are born of his spirit from the very moment of our conception (if we are not of his spirit, it means we cannot be a true image of him).

Also the Bible does not clearly indicate a virgin birth at all. The gospel of Matthew attributes the virgin birth to a fulfilment of Isiah 7:14, but that prophecy in Isiah had nothing to do with Jesus and was already fulfilled many centuries earlier. This means that the account in Matthew isn't fully accurate. Two of the gospels do not mention it at all. All this leads one to the question whether the virgin birth really happened.

In regards to the main question of this thread, I do believe he brought a message of peace (but a message of peace might not bring peace, important to remember).

1) In the Sermon, he brings forth the points of the law, but tells them to not just follow those point, but follow each point with love as foundation. While the law may permit something, if it's not of law, it's not okay.
2) He tells the disciples to pay tribute to the Emperor rather than refuse.
3) Even if the disciples are equipped with swords, he tells them to not use them against the Romans when they come for him.
4) He tells them to love their enemies.
5) Jesus says he has not come to bring peace, but the sword.

My understanding of it all has always been this:
Always seek a peaceful resolution if you can; always let it go if someone wrongs you, never answer and cause more trouble; never wrong others, even if the law may permit it; but this message will cause conflicts, there is no way around that, and it's the ones that truly follow it that will suffer for that.

 

[Desert Snake]

Actually, the Bible indicates that we are all brothers of Christ, and as a result all children of God in the same way he was. Also the Bible says that humans are created as an image of God, that means we are born of his spirit from the very moment of our conception (if we are not of his spirit, it means we cannot be a true image of him).

This is just clearly outside of Biblical Scripture. Jesus was worshipped at birth, clearly different from the rest of us.

Also the Bible does not clearly indicate a virgin birth at all. The gospel of Matthew attributes the virgin birth to a fulfilment of Isiah 7:14, but that prophecy in Isiah had nothing to do with Jesus and was already fulfilled many centuries earlier. This means that the account in Matthew isn't fully accurate. Two of the gospels do not mention it at all. All this leads one to the question whether the virgin birth really happened.

Neither did I. That's inconsequential to me.

 

[heksesang]

This is just clearly outside of Biblical Scripture. Jesus was worshipped at birth, clearly different from the rest of us.


Neither did I. That's inconsequential to me.

The king of a country was treated differently from others. Did that make him inherently different from other people?

Also, consider how we read about people worshipping about anything in the Bible, is the fact that he is worshipped by people really a good indicator that he was in fact different?

And the part about the virgin birth was directed at the previous comments which you replied to, sorry for not making that clear.

 

[John Martin]

To present Jesus as someone special is to create spiritual apartheid. To believe in the physical virgin birth of Jesus is to perpetuate spiritual apartheid. Virgin birth has to be understood spiritually. Spiritually a virgin is one who discontinues the movement of the past and gives birth to eternity. If the physical parents accept their children as God's children then they become virgin parents. Christian tradition has spent all these two thousand years defending that Jesus Christ is the only Son of God, incarnations of God, and one with God. This understanding has created a spiritual apartheid between Christ and Christians, between Christ and the rest of the humanity. May be it has served its purpose.In our time it is an outdated concept. I think it is right time now to abolish this spiritual apartheid and open the experience Jesus had to the whole of humanity.

 

[John Martin]

My brother John! It is a pleasure to see you return. I was saddened to see you absent. Your thoughts expressed are refreshing to my soul. Welcome back. :bow:

thank you Windwalker. I am very happy to be back.:bow:

 

[Desert Snake]

To present Jesus as someone special is to create spiritual apartheid. To believe in the physical virgin birth of Jesus is to perpetuate spiritual apartheid. Virgin birth has to be understood spiritually. Spiritually a virgin is one who discontinues the movement of the past and gives birth to eternity. If the physical parents accept their children as God's children then they become virgin parents. Christian tradition has spent all these two thousand years defending that Jesus Christ is the only Son of God, incarnations of God, and one with God. This understanding has created a spiritual apartheid between Christ and Christians, between Christ and the rest of the humanity. I think it is right time now to abolish this spiritual apartheid and open the experience Jesus had to the whole of humanity.

No, you like many people do not seem to understand that Christianity is a religion aside from the Texts. It is like Judaism in this manner, would you just read the Torah to learn about Judaism? No, you would read all sorts of extra Biblical writings and probably talk to a trustworthy Rabbi (or two to compare). Christianity cannot be viewed from another religions perspective, either, as some like to do, it simply doesn't work.
My advice to learn about Christianity would be to speak with members from various different denominations.

 

[Desert Snake]

The king of a country was treated differently from others. Did that make him inherently different from other people?

Also, consider how we read about people worshipping about anything in the Bible, is the fact that he is worshipped by people really a good indicator that he was in fact different?

And the part about the virgin birth was directed at the previous comments which you replied to, sorry for not making that clear.

Look, if you don't like Christianity for what it is, why are you focusing on it so much? What you are talking about has nothing to do with Christianity. One of the main tenets of Christianity is that Jesus was different from the average person. That's part of the religion, like it or not.