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Did Jesus bring a message of peace?

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Look, if you don't like Christianity for what it is, why are you focusing on it so much? What you are talking about has nothing to do with Christianity. One of the main tenets of Christianity is that Jesus was different from the average person. That's part of the religion, like it or not.

Surely that is false? Isn't the whole point of the Jesus story and sacrifice that he came as one of us? Jesus was born incarnate as a human being, one of gods children like all lf us.

The whole point of the tale is that god manifested his son as one of us.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Surely that is false? Isn't the whole point of the Jesus story and sacrifice that he came as one of us? Jesus was born incarnate as a human being, one of gods children like all lf us.

The whole point of the tale is that god manifested his son as one of us.

The official narrative is that He was born of the Spirit, this is not the same as the rest of us, that is what made Him special, enabling Him to be the representative for God. Now, if you really wanted to, you could probably make a case for 'just a man', but He's still different, evidenced by having followers. (that's not normal).

Oh, sidenote../Spirit in this case is special, it is 'extra-human', basically. Not like our normal spirits.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
The official narrative is that He was born of the Spirit, this is not the same as the rest of us, that is what made Him special, enabling Him to be the representative for God. Now, if you really wanted to, you could probably make a case for 'just a man', but He's still different, evidenced by having followers. (that's not normal).

Oh, sidenote../Spirit in this case is special, it is 'extra-human', basically. Not like our normal spirits.

But it does not actually say that he was born of the spirit and we were not. You are making a distinction that scripture does not make.

As to having followers, you seem to imagine that having followers is somehow or other 'different' to normal humans. Well do you really think Justin Beiber is some sort of deity just because he has more followers than Jesus did when he was alive?
Having followers does not evidence any sortof difference to normal humans whatsoever.

What the bible IS emphatic about is that Jesus was born of a woman and was a human being, a child of god - just like all of us.
 

John Martin

Active Member
My advice to learn about Christianity would be to speak with members from various different denominations.

Which denomination? There are thousands of them and there are multiplying like mushrooms? Christians cannot understand the spiritual vision of Jesus by just reading the Bible. They need the wisdom of other religions like Hinduism and Buddhism. There are many statements of Jesus which cannot be understood from the Biblical tradition only. Studying the wisdom of the Upanishads can be a great help.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Which denomination? There are thousands of them and there are multiplying like mushrooms? Christians cannot understand the spiritual vision of Jesus by just reading the Bible. They need the wisdom of other religions like Hinduism and Buddhism. There are many statements of Jesus which cannot be understood from the Biblical tradition only. Studying the wisdom of the Upanishads can be a great help.

Nope. I'm telling you, that's not the way the religion is structured, it isn't just some random text religion. Look, you don't have to believe me, but I know that much about Christianity.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Christian tradition has spent all these two thousand years defending that Jesus Christ is the only Son of God, incarnations of God, and one with God. This understanding has created a spiritual apartheid between Christ and Christians, between Christ and the rest of the humanity. May be it has served its purpose.In our time it is an outdated concept. I think it is right time now to abolish this spiritual apartheid and open the experience Jesus had to the whole of humanity.
Spiritual apartheid. That's a perfect way to describe this! I'm adding that to my vocabulary to express this separation of Jesus from humanity. But this understanding that Jesus is not the ONLY, mean numerically one Son of God is not modern. I just discovered this writing not long ago in Meister Eckhart following my own opening realization in meditation practice (it's always amazing how that happens). It follows perfectly with what you just said. Meister Eckhart of course was from the 14th Century, as I believe you know well as a Dominican, if I recall the order you are in correctly.

"The hearing of God’s Word requires complete self-surrender. He who hears and that which is heard are identical constituents of the eternal Word. What the eternal Father teaches is his own Being, Nature, and Godhead – which he is always revealing through his only begotten Son. He teaches that we are to be identical with him.

To deny one’s self is to be the only begotten Son of God and one who does so has for himself all the properties of that Son. All God’s acts are performed and his teachings conveyed through the Son, to the point that we should be his only begotten Son. And when this is accomplished in God’s sight, he is so fond of us and so fervent that he acts as if his divine Being might be shattered and he himself annihilated if the whole foundations of his Godhead were not revealed to us, together with his nature and being. God makes haste to do this, so that it may be ours as it is his. It is here that God finds joy and rapture in fulfillment and the person who is thus within God’s knowing and love becomes just what God himself is."​

How powerfully true. The worst thing that happened historically for the Church is that theologically they took the Trinity formulation and made it a hard theistic definition of God. In doing this, they "kicked Jesus upstairs", as I've heard someone describe it. This created this spiritual apartheid, as you describe it. The Trinity is actually a Panentheistic view, one of transcendence and immanence paradoxically existing and realized within our own humanity, in the same way in which Jesus realized this. To become as Christ, is to become aware of our nature, and our identity, as the "only" begotten Son of God, as Eckhart says above.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the word "only" is actually better translated as "special" or "beloved". It is expressive of a mutuality of special relationship, not a numerical "one". All of us, to be as Christ, which the Apostle tells us to seek, is to in fact BE the Christ in us, in our uniqueness as individuals, One with God, as Jesus. To be like Christ, when realized in ourselves, means we too are the Son of God. How can this not be? It is our true Identity for us to realize and be.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Christians cannot understand the spiritual vision of Jesus by just reading the Bible. They need the wisdom of other religions like Hinduism and Buddhism. There are many statements of Jesus which cannot be understood from the Biblical tradition only. Studying the wisdom of the Upanishads can be a great help.
Excellent! I completely concur. This has been my experience as well. In fact our other respected member on this site Vouthan posted this from the Pope John Paul ll, where he says

"In preaching the gospel, Christianity first encountered Greek philosophy; but this does not mean at all that other approaches are precluded...My thoughts turn immediately to the lands of the East, so rich in religious and philosophical traditions of great antiquity. Among these lands, India has a special place. A great spiritual impulse leads Indian thought to seek an experience which would liberate the spirit from the shackles of time and space and would therefore acquire absolute value. The dynamic of this quest for liberation provides the context for great metaphysical systems. In India particularly, it is the duty of Christians now to draw from this rich heritage the elements compatible with their faith, in order to enrich Christian thought..."​

From here: Fides et Ratio, Encyclical Letter, John Paul II, 14 September 1998

I believe to simply try to penetrate an understanding of Jesus using nothing but the eyes of flesh and reason, without opening to the eye of spirit which exists in all faith traditions, one's vision becomes myopic and blinds oneself to anything beyond ones own narrow mental ideas.
 

heksesang

Member
Look, if you don't like Christianity for what it is, why are you focusing on it so much? What you are talking about has nothing to do with Christianity. One of the main tenets of Christianity is that Jesus was different from the average person. That's part of the religion, like it or not.
The one thing that is common for all denominations of Christianity is Jesus. But what is not common for all of them is whether they believe he was special, or if was just an ordinary human chosen by God.

Jesus was indeed different from the average person, but he is still an ordinary person. We have had many people through history who were different from the average person, but they were all still ordinary humans.

The official narrative is that He was born of the Spirit, this is not the same as the rest of us, that is what made Him special, enabling Him to be the representative for God. Now, if you really wanted to, you could probably make a case for 'just a man', but He's still different, evidenced by having followers. (that's not normal).
Which narrative is the official one? Or have you forgotten that there exist many different views of what texts are canonical, and many different views of how these texts should be interpreted?

He is still different, yes, but he was an ordinary man chosen by God for a task. And the fact that he could live up to the task given, as an ordinary human, is what is so very important in Christianity. How he showed us what we are capable of as children of God.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
I believe that the ultimate message and his principle are peace!

In this life noting as big as Christianity can be achieved easily. There might have been fights and misfortunes along the road, but they were necessities that he had no choice in and by all means they were never part of his cause nor he wanted to be involved in it in the first place!

That is my belief!
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
When Jesus said,'turn the other cheek' he was not telling to be passive. Actions can from different identifications. Individual,collective and universal. The actions that come from the individual identification and collective identification are mere reactions and mechanical. Those who live in the universal consciousness live a creative life and respond creatively. The actions that come from creative source need not be passive and non-violent. These actions will be a creative response to the situation. It can be a violent action or non-violent, that is appropriate to the situation. Nothing is determined. So Jesus was not telling people to be non-violent but to be creative.
Be innocent as doves: Before that Jesus also says be cunning as serpent and then says be innocent as doves.
Serpent is the symbol of the life of ego, either individual or collective. The way we think and act depends on the identity we have about ourselves. The ego is defensive, manipulative and cunning.We can know this by listening to the questions people ask. Many persons put questions to Jesus but their motives were manipulative, to catch Jesus, to put Jesus into difficulties.
To be like a dove means to be innocent, to be empty, not having either individual ego or collective ego. It is universal. It has nothing to defend. it is not manipulative. Its answers always break down the barriers and bring peace. Its words are creative and liberating. This person also knows the tactics of the serpent,the ego.
So Jesus was telling to understand the dynamic of the serpent,the ego, but act from the dove, from the state of ego- less ness.
To show the other cheek has the similar meaning.
They both mean the same thing: living and acting from a higher level of consciousness, not from the fragmented ego consciousness. Whatever action comes from the ego-less consciousness is acceptable in the sight of God, whether it is a violent action or nonviolent action. It is a creative expression of the divine will for that particular moment or situation. These actions are not predetermined. When people put questions, Jesus always gave creative answers,which surprised people. He was living in the universal,boundless or ego less consciousness. Jesus invited people to grow into this consciousness and live from there.

Thanks for posting what you believe and why.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Oops, I forgot that this was a Christian DIR thread, although I'm going to leave my questions as is unless the moderator thinks they should be removed. Sorry if I've overstepped the bounds.

And retorts what they are....this should be moved to the debate section.
 
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