Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Ok, so what is skepticism doing?
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Did Jesus Christ Actually Exist?
- Thread starter Comradio251
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mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
It doubts everything and what is left, is what is not false, in a sense. At least for one version of skepticism.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
But if skepticism doubts everything, nothing is left, or is there?
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
No, if you doubt everything, then you can't doubt, that you doubt. Thus "I think, ergo I am".
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Well my religious practice involves treating thinking as an error of the mind. Something like, "When I do not think, my true reality is present".
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I seem to remember a certain character that was a skeptic in CS Lewis' "That Hideous Strength." The Protagonist, a Christian named Ransom, said of him something to the effect of we need skeptics, because they keep us honest.
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mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Well, I have a personal aganda as for the everyday world, but for the general aspect I try to be honest.
So as far as I can tell, there are no strong versions of truth, proof, evidence, facts, objectivity, rationality and so on.
But presumably this doesn't apply to your comments.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Or they at least keep us thinking. Without skepticism we'd all be hooked by cults in the most dangerous ways.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Naturally, I do not consider commenting on RF as religious practice.But presumably this doesn't apply to your comments.
joelr
Well-Known Member
I don't think so. What it produces is an emotional state that can be induced by belief in any religion or supernatural story.
Hindu's say the same about Krishna -
"I have experienced lord krishna whenever I have asked heartly and totally surrendered my problems under his control.I always got the perfect solution.Some times it takes a bit long for us to recognize the solution which the lord has provided.But in course of time everything gets clear."
In fact it's part of the Mormon Bible, if you believe Jesus will prove to you Mormonism is the true version of Christianity.
Moroni: 4-5
And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
Millions of Hindu will testify that Sai Baba, in the 19th century performed miracles, healings, appeared in visions. If you took your experiences and researched how other religions experience similar you will see it's all the same. So the common denominator is when you hold a supernatural belief as true and feel a deity holds you in special regard you use confirmation bias to give evidence to anything possible. Good luck, dopamine rushes, whatever, all religions do it.
Why do you think Heavens Gate all committed suicide they were so convinced of the reality of the doctrine. Because religions are good at at targeting people who are ready to believe and not apply the same standard of evidence they would for other religions or anything else.
Visions, as all sight, happens in your brain. Prescience will happen from time to time, that is how probability works. If you really have it, I'm going to write down a 14 digit number from pi, already written out. Please tell me what the number is.
Or is it just random, which probability would call for. If you claim some ESP then prove it.
It's a known psychological phenomenon. You just have to look beyond your circle of beliefs and confirmation bias.
"What are your personal experiences with Lord Krishna?"
"Oh, wow. Lord Krishna is my Ishta Devata so my experiences with Him form the core of my whole inner life. I love Him with all my heart and have had experiences with Him, in one form or another, most days of my life, certainly every day since I was twelve years old. I couldn’t possibly write them all out here, for several reasons: Some are too private and intimate for me to want to share publicly, many would simply be too boring, minor/mundane and repetitive, and the whole thing would simply take overwhelmingly too long; it’s quite a large part of the content of my entire life experience."
People create stories and other people are told they are real. They are supported by large groups, institutions, ceremonies, apologetics, and it becomes very easy to allow all sorts of cognitive biases to convince you they are real. It's done in every religion and none have produced any real evidence.
They go into the personal/spiritual connection and learn their religion is the actual truth. It's like if hundreds of different groups of scientists had completely different laws of thermodynamics. Something would be off and they would probably all be wrong.
I'm sure the experiences are personal. But do they have anything to do with what is actually true? I don't think so.
What do you say to a person who uses personal experiences to say Islam is 100% true. Or ANYTHING other than what you believe?
And science has experiments and evidence all scientists can explore that show our scientific knowledge is exactly the same for everyone and exactly as true for everyone. Spiritual experiences can relax your body and give emotional healing but they do not in any way provide evidence for an actual spiritual realm. When people try to lean truths about religions they find the religion they believe is true. Has anyone ever had a spiritual experience and said "hey, I was all wrong! Krishna is the true demigod, not Jesus".
No, it doesn't work that way. Altered brain states do not show a spiritual realm is real, it shows we can experience altered brain states that we may associate with a spiritual realm.
Jesus is a Hellenistic savior deity. A trend that was already happening in religions that were in places the Greeks occupied. Israel was one. All of these religions influenced by Hellenism had savior demigods who resurrected and got followers souls to an afterlife. It's not even an original theology.
One of the experts on this subject who has free media is Dr James Tabor.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
You are not understanding what I explained, I don't do concepts, concepts represent reality but they themselves are only brain waves meant to represent the real. Having said that, I concede that what I am writing is also a conceptualization of the reality it is meant to represent, but I know that and am using concepts to say that concepts are not reality. In my religious practice I attempt to cease any and all thinking, when a mind free from conceptualizing is realized, reality is present without interpretation.
Now beliefs in conceptual reality take one even further from reality, conceptualization about a conceptualization.
So you are free to conceptualize about the reality represented by the concepts of religion. science, reality, etc., all your life, but you will not find realize that for which the conceptualizations represent until you focus on that for which the concepts represent, without conceptualizing, ie., thinking.
So if you reply, I have little interest in conceptualizations, except as they show intent to understand the reality for which the concepts stand for.
The idea of an evil Satan comes from the beginning of Genesis. Maybe I understood you wrongly, but I thought you said Genesis is not from Persians.
And it can be argued that Ahura Mazda was actually the same as the Bible God (Yahweh). Also, I don't think Ex. 20:1-2 is correctly understood, if one thinks it means person can be punished for something that he did not do.
If we would be literal, there is only one creation story, Genesis 1. Genesis 2 is not speaking of creation, but about forming and planting things.
Consensus and academia have been wrong many times. For me those words don't make claims facts. I require logical claims and real evidence.
Which is why no one can really demonstrate the theory to be true. All the "evidence" that is used can also just mean that God created many different things that have similar attributes.
Yeah, suggests, that must be very nice for those who don't want to believe in God.
Or that there has been many "species" in the beginning.
I don't ignore it, I just don't believe extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence.
If one can arrange bones so that it looks like evolution, it doesn't make evolution true.
Bible tells also about "gods" impregnating women. I believe there is connection in all the ancient stories. The difference between Bible God and other so called gods is that things go as Bible God says.
Sorry, I have no intelligent reason to believe his baseless claims.
joelr
Well-Known Member
You are describing Transcendental Meditation and people use in in a non-religious way. It's also used to come to the core foundations of Hinduism as well as Buddhism and many others.You are not understanding what I explained, I don't do concepts, concepts represent reality but they themselves are only brain waves meant to represent the real. Having said that, I concede that what I am writing is also a conceptualization of the reality it is meant to represent, but I know that and am using concepts to say that concepts are not reality. In my religious practice I attempt to cease any and all thinking, when a mind free from conceptualizing is realized, reality is present without interpretation.
Now beliefs in conceptual reality take one even further from reality, conceptualization about a conceptualization.
So you are free to conceptualize about the reality represented by the concepts of religion. science, reality, etc., all your life, but you will not find realize that for which the conceptualizations represent until you focus on that for which the concepts represent, without conceptualizing, ie., thinking.
So if you reply, I have little interest in conceptualizations, except as they show intent to understand the reality for which the concepts stand for.
so there is no consistency which shows personal beliefs in stories will ply a role. Nothing here is evidence for a story being true.
Hindus cease thinking to find Brahman is the true fundamental reality. Yet secular meditators will not come to that conclusion. You seem to be doing it with a completely different religion. This is not evidence of anything outside of your mind being real. It's evidence we get into different brain states with meditation.
Sam Harris spent years studying and practicing this meditation. He found the benefits but there is no "spiritual realm" this gives evidence for.
At best you are special pleading that your insights should be taken over an entire religion that incorporates meditation, people who spent their entire life meditating every day for endless hours.
joelr
Well-Known Member
/I gave you a list of University textbooks all explaining Genesis is a reworking of Mesopotamian mythology.
There is no Satan in Eden, it's a serpent. The much older African version is the same, the snake tells the woman to eat the fruit.
Later in the OT Satan is called the Angel of Yahweh, speaks with him, convinces Yahweh to allow him to torture Job, does Yahweh's dirty work by delivering 2 plagues. There is no "evil" Satan. He is also a "sons of Yahweh" in Job.
The serpent just gave them knowledge to "be like the gods" and have knowledge of good and evil. Which is a god was all -knowing knew that would happen anyways. But it's a myth.
The Persians are 2nd Temple Period and their myths don't show up until Daniel, Isaiah and the NT. Nick Grier explained it pretty well, I provided that in the last post.
No, it cannot. Yahweh was very clear, no other gods. Kill every living thing in 6 cities because you might become corrupted by their religion. He was the god of the Israelites, not the Persians. That is the weakest apologetics I have possibly ever heard?
Also, the Hebrews DID NOT HAVE ANY OF THOSE MYTHS before the Persian occupation. Then, slowly, they did. So you are suggesting Yahweh was in another religion, gave a false name, taught the Persians the correct theology while neglecting HIS PEOPLE. Didn't tell them before this period anything about all these concepts. Even was social with Satan.
You are doing a tap-dance to make your beliefs work when it's so obvious the Israelites just adopted Persian myths during the occupation.
You do not require " logical claims and real evidence." because you believe a complete mythology, without evidence. And there exists mountains of evidence it's borrowed from other cultures. Especially the NT.
Also, there IS REAL EVIDENCE. They study the text with intertextuality and determine Genesis could not have been written without reliance on older text. Now, you are just straight lying.
Noah - Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned
Gilamesh - . When the seventh day dawned I loosed a dove and let her go. She flew away, but finding no resting- place she returned.
Noah - And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
Gilamesh - looked for land in vain, but fourteen leagues distant there appeared a mountain, and there the boat grounded; on the mountain of Nisir the boat held fast, she held fast and did not budge. One day she held, and a second day on the mountain of Nisir she held fast and did not budge. A third day, and a fourth day she held fast on the mountain and did not budge; a fifth day and a sixth day she held fast on the mountain.
Noah - And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;
Gimamesh - , I made a sacrifice and poured out a libation on the mountain top. Seven and again seven cauldrons I set up on their stands, I heaped up wood and cane and cedar and myrtle. When the gods smelled the sweet savour, they gathered like flies over the sacrifice.
Noah - The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Gimamesh - “Wisest of gods, hero Enlil, how could you so senselessly bring down the flood? Lay upon the sinner his sin, Lay upon the transgressor his transgression, Punish him a little when he breaks loose, Do not drive him too hard or he perishes; Would that a lion had ravaged mankind Rather than the flood, Would that a wolf had ravaged mankind Rather than the flood, Would that famine had wasted the world Rather than the flood, Would that pestilence had wasted mankind Rather than the flood
Noah - And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
Gilamesh - When the seventh day dawned the storm from the south subsided, the sea grew calm, the flood was stilled;
Noah - And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.
Gilamesh - Gilgamesh, the son of Ninsun, lies in the tomb.
There is also real evidence in the Bible, we can see where the Persian influence shows up first.
Old Testament Interpretation
Professor John J. Collins
12:10 a likely inspiration for Ezekiel treatment of dead (valley of bones) was Persian myth
14:20 resurrection of dead in Ezekiel, incidentally resurrection of the dead is also attested in Zoroastrianism, the Persians had it before the Israelites. There was no precent for bodily resurrection in Israel before this time. No tradition of bodies getting up from the grave. The idea of borrowing can be suggested.
In Ezekiel this is metaphorical.
The only book that clearly refers to bodily resurrection is Daniel.
17:30 resurrection of individual and judgment in Daniel, 164 BC. Prior to this the afterlife was Sheol, now heaven/hell is introduced. Persian period. Resurrection and hell existed in the Persian religion.
Resurrection of spirit. Some people are raised up to heaven, some to hell. New to the OT.
joelr
Well-Known Member
It can mean "god" did it when you can demonstrate a god is something that even exists.
But evolution has been demonstrated. With medicine, farming and many many other areas that would not be possible if evolution was not true.
There is evidence for evolution in many areas of biology, including:
- Fossil record
Fossils show how species have changed over time, and can indicate the existence of species that are now extinct but related to present-day species. For example, the fossil record shows that mammals and birds spread across the planet after the dinosaurs went extinct. - Biogeography
The distribution of organisms around the world, and the unique features of island species, can show how evolution and geological changes have occurred. For example, the Hawaiian Islands are home to many species of birds, insects, and plants that are not found anywhere else on Earth, but are related to mainland species. - Anatomy
Similar physical features, called homologous structures, can indicate that species share a common ancestor. For example, bats, mice, and humans all have four limbs because they share a common ancestor with that trait. Vestigial structures, which are reduced or non-functional versions of features, can also provide insight into an organism's ancestry. For example, some snakes have tiny vestigial legs that show they had a four-legged ancestor. - Molecular biology
DNA and genetic code can show how closely related species are. For example, closely related organisms have more similar DNA and proteins than distantly related organism
Yes, suggests. Some modern humans still have a small amount of Neanderthal DNA. I have no idea what you mean by "don't want to believe in god"????????
Do you "not want to believe" in Krishna? Or the Mormon updates, or Zeus, or all other religions???????? Or do you find them lacking in evidence. Exactly. There isn't anything to believe. People told Heavens Gate a bunch of stories and they bought into it. You went to a church and people told you stories and you bought it. When you actually see if there is anything to it it falls apart in every way possible.
I want to believe in things that are true. There is no more evidence for Yahweh than for Zeus. But there is massive evidence for evolution.
Just because you decided to accept an ancient story without testing it against historical scholarship and philosophy doesn't make other people who don't buy it "not want to believe". I care about truth. You don't have to.
No, they can date them with radioactive dating. Please don't pull the apologetic you have probably been taught about carbon dating only working for 50,000 years. They tell you that and mysteriously forget to tell you about all the other forms of absolute and relative forms of dating.
Yes you do, you believe a book of complete mythology, borrowed from the Mesopotamians, Egyptians, then the Persians and finally the Hellenistic Greeks. The evidence shows it all existed prior and this is a Jewish version of the myths. You buy that without evidence. Zero evidence.
You forgot about anatomy, molecular biology, biogeography, fossils, & direct observation.
Forrest Valkai is a biologist and takes time to educate creationists on the fallacies and ways they try to trick you. You can learn or not.
If you want answers, even to debunk evolution, you should listen to a biologist on the evidence first. His channel is full of reaction videos to creationist claims.
Is that right. First how do you know things didn't go as other gods said? Next, you are AGAIN making stuff up. You truly do not care about what is true. Just making your beliefs real is all you care about. Here are a few things that didn't happen. Israel was defeated by Assryians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, are not anything like what Yahweh promised.
- God promises to make Isaac's descendents as numerous as "the stars of heaven", which, of course, never happened. The Jews have always been, and will always be, a small minority. 22:17-18, 26:4
- God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Hebrews 11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14
- God promises to bring Jacob safely back from Egypt, but Jacob dies in Egypt (Gen.47:28-29) 46:3
- God promises to bring Jacob safely back from Egypt, but Jacob dies in Egypt (Gen.47:28-29) 46:3
Deuteronomy
- God promises to bring Jacob safely back from Egypt, but Jacob dies in Egypt (Gen.47:28-29) 46:3
- God says that the Israelites will destroy all of the peoples they encounter. But he was unable to keep his promise. 7:1, 7:23-24, 31:3
Joshua
- God promises to give Joshua all of the land that his "foot shall tread upon." He says that none of the people he encounters will be able to resist him. But later we find that God didn't keep his promise, and that many tribes withstood Joshua's attempt to steal their land. 1:3-5, 3:10, 15:63, 16:10, 17:12-13, 17:17-18, 21:43-45
Judges
- God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But he failed to keep that promise 1:19, 1:21-27, 3:1-5
Isaiah
- These verses falsely predict that Babylon will never again be inhabited. 13:19-20
- This verse prophesies that Damascus will be completely destroyed and no longer be inhabited. Yet Damascus has never been completely destroyed and is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities. 17:1
- This verse predicts that there shall be five cities in Egypt that speak the Canaanite language. But that language was never spoken in Egypt, and it is extinct now. 19:18
- These verses predict that the Egyptians will worship the Lord (Yahweh) with sacrifices and offerings. But Judaism has never been an important religion in Egypt. 19:18-21
- Isaiah 53 is probably the most often used "prophecy" that is claimed by Christian apologists to refer to Jesus. But the context indicates otherwise. The "suffering servant" that is referred to here is Israel, not Jesus. 53:1-12
- Nations that do not serve Israel will perish. 60:12
Jeremiah
- Jeremiah prophesies that all nations of the earth will embrace Judaism. This has not happened. 3:17
- God says he is going to punish Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians for what they have done to his people -- even though God Himself is the one who made the Babylonians attack and enslave Judah! As part of the punishment God will take the land of the Babylonians and "make it perpetual desolations." A false prophecy, since present-day Iraq is quite occupied.25:12-13
- All those who move to Egypt will die by the sword, famine, or pestilence. None "shall escape from the evil" that comes directly from God. But many, including Jews, have moved to Egypt and most seem to have escaped from God's promised evil. 42:15-18, 22
- God prophesies that Babylon will never again be inhabited. But it has been inhabited constantly since the prophecy was supposedly made, and is inhabited still today. 50:39
- God says that Babylon will be desolate and uninhabited forever. He says that only dragons will live there. But Babylon has been dragon-free and continuously inhabited since then. 51:26, 29, 37, 43, 62, 64
joelr
Well-Known Member
Right, except that it's his field of study and he backs every single claim with evidence and sources.
Please write a paper debunking every claim in Forged and source your work. I don't think you know what the word "intelligent" means
What it doesn't mean is when you hear a bunch of supernatural claims from a religious group, like Islam, Mormonism, Christianity or any other, and you assume everything you are told is the absolute truth and scholars who study the original text for a living and are trained by the highest experts in the world, it doesn't mean you get to call it "intelligent" when you hand wave them off with no evidence and by hiding your head in the sand and saying "no, no suh".
Again, you do not care about what is actually true
Please take one claim in his work and explain why it's "baseless"
Bart Denton Ehrman[a] (born October 5, 1955) is an American New Testament scholar focusing on textual criticism of the New Testament, the historical Jesus, and the origins and development of early Christianity. He is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Forgery and Counterforgery: The Use of Literary Deceit in Early Christian Polemics
"The book is excellent. It will make an enormous impact on the field of New Testament studies and also studies of pseudepigraphy in the ancient world. ... The book will make a huge contribution to the field. There are comparable books in German, but this one goes beyond them all. And it will be the only thing of its kind in English."
--Dale B. Martin, Professor of Religious Studies at Yale University
"Examining over fifty examples of early Christian forgery and their polemical contexts, Ehrman uncovers the varied motives that prompted ancient Christian authors intentionally to deceive their readers. Whether these authors forged their works to support or critique the Apostle Paul, to oppose or celebrate "the flesh", to promote their own views of doctrine and church leadership, or to defend Christianity against hostile critics, the sheer magnitude of early Christian forgery startles the modern reader. Ehrman demolishes the claim that forgery was an acceptable literary practice in Greco-Roman antiquity, as well as scholars' attempts to "explain away" its prevalence in early Christianity. Ehrman's remarkable and comprehensive account of a misunderstood practice is unparalleled in English-language scholarship."--Elizabeth A. Clark, John Carlisle Kilgo Professor of Religion and Professor of History, Duke University
"With Forgery and Counter-forgery, Bart Ehrman has decisively undermined the view that the early Christian pseudepigraphic writings are something other than forgeries. These works, however well-intentioned, were, quite simply, "********" and were viewed as such whenever their false authorial claims were discovered. Based in flawed or faulty scholarship, modern attempts to excuse the New Testament forgeries are therefore misplaced, revealing the longings of contemporary readers for secure canonical authorities capable of defending their own points of view. This deeply engaging, carefully documented and thought-provoking exposé of ancient forgery is required reading for anyone interested in understanding how, and why, so many Christian writers sought to pass off their works as the products of named authorities when they so obviously were not. Thoroughly convincing."--Jennifer Knust, Boston University
"The quality is very high; it is very thorough and well-researched. ... Ehrman has produced a learned and engaging survey of early Christian controversial literature from the vantage point of authorial identity and rhetorical deceit, asking why Christians lied about themselves when writing polemical works and why scholars are so resistant to acknowledging their forgeries. ... There is no other major scholarly study in English that tackles this subject with such thoroughness, and its usefulness to students of early Christian literature will be undeniable. ... There is no comparable work in English on forgery. ... I also think general readers will pick it up and find it fascinating. ... The prose is solid, the arguments are clear and effective, and the significance of this study is undeniable."
--Andrew Jacobs, Associate Professor and Chair of Religious Studies at Scripps College
Zechariah
- Israel shall never again be oppressed. Another obviously false prophecy; Israel has been occupied many times since the time of Zechariah. 9:8
Malachi
- The gospel of Mark claims that John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy given in Malachi. But the Malachi prophecy says that God will send Elijah before "the great and dreadful day of the LORD" in which the world will be consumed by fire. Yet John the Baptist flatly denied that he was Elijah (Elias) in John 1:21 and the earth was not destroyed after John's appearance. 3:1, 4:5
Matthew
- he prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from verse 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did.
- The prophecy given in Isaiah 7:14 referred not to a virgin but to a young woman, living at the time of the prophecy. And Jesus, of course, was called Jesus -- and is not called Emmanuel in any verse in the New Testament. 1:23
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
It is not possible to convey to you 'that' state of being represented by concepts such as God, Tao, Nirvana, Enlightenment, etc., for it is absolute reality itself, there is no other. So unless you take one or more of the many different paths, religious and/or non-religious, that bring about the realization of 'that' state, then you will remain in a state of confusion.
The conceptual teaching that conceptual teaching can never bring about enlightenment is the true teaching.
Wow.