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Did Jesus Christ Actually Exist?

joelr

Well-Known Member
No good reason to believe they adopted anything.

Still with the trolling. I don't care that you refuse to accept what is out best piecing together of historical evidence. I care about the evidence.


You have completely failed to give even one single piece of evidence against anything I mentioned. Personal opinion is not evidence.


For those interested, I 'll just keep going.


with the Greeks the basic idea is -


Mystery cults, come from Greek religions. Every culture that was conquered by Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, Thracians, all took the Mystery cult theology and added it to their local religion and came up with the Mystery religions.


Basic Mystery cult, common features:


- Individuals “initiated” into the mysteries, ritually and by teaching sworn secrets about the universe. Something about the cosmos one needed to be saved, secrets. Many secrets are now lost.

- purpose was to gain salvation in the afterlife

- all use baptism and communion(communal meals)

- fictive kinship “brotherhood”

- Trends in Hellenistic religion


- Petra Pakkanen, Interpreting Early Hellenistic Religion (1996)



- Four big trends in religion in the centuries leading up to Christianity



- Christianity conforms to all four


Four Trends


- Syncretism: combining a foreign cult deity with Hellenistic elements. Christianity is a Jewish mystery religion.


- Henotheism: transforming / reinterpreting polytheism into monotheism. Judaism introduced monolatric concepts.


- Individualism: agricultural salvation cults retooled as personal salvation cults. Salvation of community changed into personal individual salvation in afterlife. All original agricultural salvation cults were retooled by the time Christianity arose.



- Cosmopolitianism: all races, cultures, classes admitted as equals, with fictive kinship (members are all brothers) you now “join” a religion rather than being born into it


Savior deities, dying/rising, pre-Christian, Osiris, Adonis, Romulus, Zalmoxis, Inanna (oldest 1700 B.C., female deity resurrected in 3 days)


Worship of Inanna was continued in Tyre during the origin of Christianity (Tyre is mentioned in Bible). Highly unlikely it’s a coincidence that a Jewish sect decided to build their own version of a dying/rising deity using the Jewish concepts of angels instead of Gods.


bad scholarship on internet, Horus not a dying/rising God. Mithras is also not. Mithras does undergo a passion, no death.


All Mystery religions have personal savior deities
- All saviors

- all son/daughter, never the supreme God (including Mithriasm)


- all undergo a passion (struggle) patheon


- all obtain victory over death which they share with followers

- all have stories set on earth

- none actually existed
- Is Jesus the exception and based on a real Jewish teacher or is it all made up?

From a lecture by Dr Carrier.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
It is possible that argon is formed already in the mix, if it can be formed after the mix. So, is there some way to make sure argon can't in any condition be trapped in the forming minerals?

Why don't you ask a chemist?

Potassium-40 is especially important in potassium–argon (K–Ar) dating. Argon is a gas that does not ordinarily combine with other elements. So, when a mineral forms – whether from molten rock, or from substances dissolved in water – it will be initially argon-free, even if there is some argon in the liquid. However, if the mineral contains any potassium, then decay of the 40K isotope present will create fresh argon-40 that will remain locked up in the mineral. Since the rate at which this conversion occurs is known, it is possible to determine the elapsed time since the mineral formed by measuring the ratio of 40K and 40Ar atoms contained in it.

The argon found in Earth's atmosphere is 99.6% 40Ar; whereas the argon in the Sun – and presumably in the primordial material that condensed into the planets – is mostly 36Ar, with less than 15% of 38Ar. It follows that most of the terrestrial argon derives from potassium-40 that decayed into argon-40, which eventually escaped to the atmosphere.


So, you say that it is not possible to mix lead to Zircon crystals in any condition? Has that been tested? How?



You have lost credibility and I do not care about a conversation with you. It's become clear that when evidence is presented you will just hand wave and say "sorry I don't blah......." So I'm not wasting my time until you back up your statements with reasons and evidence. dO your own research is you care about what is true. Of course you will find evidence counter to your beliefs and then say "sorry, I don't think that's correct, I have no reason to................"
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Yes, more evidence, not opinions. It seems to me that you mix up those.
Please give me one example where I'm giving an opinion? Everything I've given is historical knowledge gathered over centuries of archaeological digs and reading as many original documents and historians of the period.


For example one of the best known works of scholarship on mystery religions and Hellenism was:

The Religious Context of Early Christianity


A Guide to Graeco-Roman Religions

HANS-JOSEF KLAUCK
Professor of New Testament Exegesis, University of Munich, Germany


Which I have and is sourced, many of which I have read. HE explans the mystery religions going back to the last 3 centuries of BCE and even some earlier myths. Ancient Greek culture is well studied and is not "an opinion".


"the myth of the dying and rising again of a divinity, which lies at the centre of each cult, was a significant influence on earliest Christianity's image of Christ, which drifted off into myth. "


{e) Myth and rite


The best way to tackle the question of what the aim of the performance of the mysteries was, or in other words what kind of salvation the mystery cults promised, is to attempt to determine the relationship between myth and rite. Every cult is based on its own divine myth, which narrates what happens to a god; in most cases, he has to take a path of suffering and wandering, but this often leads to victory at the end. The rite depicts this path in abbreviated form and thus makes it possible for the initiand to be taken up into the story of the god, to share in his labours and above all in his victory. Thus there comes into being a ritual participation which contains the perspective of winning salvation (awrqpia). The hope for salvation can be innerworldly, looking for protection from life's many tribulations, e.g. sickness, poverty, dangers on journey, and death; but it can also look for something better in the life after death. It always involves an intensification of vitality and of life expectation, to be achieved through participation in the indestructible life of a god (cf in general terms Burkert 11: mysteries 'aimed at a change of mind through experience of the sacred').




Please watch the interview with Joel Baden about the origin of the Israelites, we have archaeological evidence as well as DNA evidence? Where is the opinion?


But what's worse is it ENTIRELY your opinion that the supernatural stories only in the Bible are actually true. Not the Quran or Mormon Bible. There is ZERO evidence, no more or less than for the Mormon Bible or the Quran for being true. Meaning it's completely a belief you have to buy into.
Yet historical evidence based on actual evidence is opinion? And somehow you get to have an entire set of beliefs based on opinion, that a book of folk tales is true and then you turn aroound and acuse historical evidence of being an opinion when at least there is solid evidence. From many angles. From Mesopotamia, Persian, Greek, the fictive writing styles, Jesus being re-written as the new Elijah and Moses, this is well established.
But your opinion about one particular savior deity, that's fine.

So basically you are special pleading and holding a belief using standards that you would never accept for anything else.
And you don't even seem to realize it, you talk about opinion as if it holds no weight, yet it's the entirety of your evidence for the Bible?

The inconsistency is mind-blowing.

"Jesus as Elijah

Structurally speaking, this breathing of new life into older paradigms resembles the application to Jesus of the typology of Moses and Elijah. "

Klauck






If you look into the historical-critical method studies there is a lot of evidence.


Bart Ehrman in Jesus Interrupted:

A very large percentage of seminarians are completely blind-sided by the historical-critical method. They come in with the expectation of learning the pious truths of the Bible so that they can pass them along in their sermons, as their own pastors have done for them. Nothing prepares them for historical criticism. To their surprise they learn, instead of material for sermons, all the results of what historical critics have established on the basis of centuries of research. The Bible is filled with discrepancies, many of them irreconcilable contradictions. Moses did not write the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament) and Matthew, Mark, Luke, and lohn did not write the Gospels. There are other books that did not make it into the Bible that at one time or another were considered canonical—other Gospels, for example, allegedly written by Jesus’ followers Peter, Thomas, and Mary. The Exodus probably did not happen as described in the Old Testament. The conquest of the Promised Land is probably based on legend. The Gospels are at odds on numerous points and contain nonhistorical material. It is hard
to know whether Moses ever existed and what, exactly, the historical Jesus taught. The historical narratives of the Old Testament are
filled with legendary fabrications and the book of Acts in the New Testament contains historically unreliable information about the
life and teachings of Paul. Many of the books of the New Testament are pseudonymous—written not by the apostles but by later writers
claiming to be apostles. The list goes on.



Some students accept these new views from day one. Others— especially among the more conservative students—resist for a long time, secure in their knowledge that God would not allow any falsehoods into his sacred book. But before long, as students see more
and more of the evidence, many of them find that their faith in the inerrancy and absolute historical truthfulness of the Bible begins to
waver. There simply is too much evidence, and to reconcile all of the hundreds of differences among the biblical sources requires so much
speculation and fancy interpretive footwork that eventually it gets to be too much for them.
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
So then for about 8 centuries Yahweh didn't tell his followers about the big final battle.
Or you just don't know it.
There are the 4 scholars who you know more than. So if you want you can write to them and tell them "sorry , I think you are wrong".
Meanwhile I see the evidence is far in their favor. All historians of this period say the same as well. At least any I have encountered reading or listening to.
You can see their claim wrong just by reading the Bible.
The "wicked" perishing goes back to the earliest mythology we know of. Nothing here is even close to Greek Hellenistic ideas.
Thank you, then the Bible and it's teachings are not Hellenistic, because it is also the teaching in New Testament.
First of all Proverbs is also partially copied and also overall very similar to other wisdom traditions.
It is fascinating how easily you believe those claims.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Christianity is a Jewish mystery religion.
It seems to me the greatest problem is that you don't know Christianity. Why do you think Christianity is a mystery religion?
Henotheism: transforming / reinterpreting polytheism into monotheism. Judaism introduced monolatric concepts.
Biblical Christianity is monotheistic.
Savior deities, dying/rising, pre-Christian, Osiris, Adonis, Romulus, Zalmoxis, Inanna (oldest 1700 B.C., female deity resurrected in 3 days)
By what is said in the Bible, Jesus is a man and there is only one true God that is greater than Jesus. That is why the Osiris... claim fails.

And still, even if the stories would be similar, it is not a proof that anyone copied anything. That is just your belief and opinion.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Potassium-40 is especially important in potassium–argon (K–Ar) dating. Argon is a gas that does not ordinarily combine with other elements. So, when a mineral forms – whether from molten rock, or from substances dissolved in water – it will be initially argon-free, even if there is some argon in the liquid.
If there is Potassium -40 in molten rock, there can also be Argon -40. And then it is possible that argon also in those conditions gets stuck in the minerals. Or do you have some good reason to believe Potassium doesn't decay when in the form of molten rock?

Same is with Uranium lead method. Decaying or its results could exist in molten rock, and it can lead to situation where rocks look older than they are. And this explains why the methods must always be calibrated to give "right" results. IF for example you date a rock that was formed in volcano today and don't know how old it should be, you get very wrong results.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Please give me one example where I'm giving an opinion?
In post 451 you said "it's the consensus opinion in Biblical historicity".

And obviously they are opinions, because they are not absolute proven facts.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Did Jesus Christ Actually Exist?

The mythical "Jesus", as I understand, a fictional/fake Pauline product- made in Rome, never existed, one could say for sure, right, please?
But (Jesus)Yeshua Son of Mary-who was never wife/consort of any god nor she had any conception in her womb from any god was , did exist, please, right?:

6:102
(One G-d is)The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a son when He has no consort, and when He has created everything and has knowledge of all things?


Right?

Regards
________________

بَدِیۡعُ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالۡاَرۡضِ ؕ اَنّٰی یَکُوۡنُ لَہٗ وَلَدٌ وَّلَمۡ تَکُنۡ لَّہٗ صَاحِبَۃٌ ؕ وَخَلَقَ کُلَّ شَیۡءٍ ۚ وَہُوَ بِکُلِّ شَیۡءٍ عَلِیۡمٌ ﴿۱۰۲
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Or you just don't know it.
They don't know it because it isn't written down in scripture? There is no Oersian or Greek theology at all. A small amount of Persian shows up a late OT but the Hellenistic movement was Christianity.

Now you are entering some absurd idea that there was all this different theology, but no one wrote it down in the Bible. That is so absurd or desperate, I don't really think you buy that for one second.






You can see their claim wrong just by reading the Bible.
Actually that's completely wrong. I gave you the John Collins Yale Divinity lectures where he points out Persian ideas that were not part of Judaism up to that point. And they are very distinct. You are not giving evidence or reasons you are just saying they are wrong.
I don't think you even believe that yourself.
I gave you the list of OT vs NT theology, you haven't pointed out any mistakes? It's in the Bible. Heaven is not for the souls of the members of the religion. Then in the NT it is. Just like all mystery religions.

He uses only examples from the Bible.
The J.Z. Smith article describes the NT exactly but it's really just about all mystery religions.

Once again:


Old Testament Interpretation


Professor John J. Collins




12:10 a possible inspiration for Ezekiel treatment of dead (valley of bones) was Persian myth

14:20 resurrection of dead in Ezekiel, incidentally resurrection of the dead is also attested in Zoroastrianism, the Persians had it before the Israelites. There was no precent for bodily resurrection in Israel before this time. No tradition of bodies getting up from the grave. The idea of borrowing can be suggested.


In Ezekiel this is metaphorical.


The only book that clearly refers to bodily resurrection is Daniel.





17:30 resurrection of individual and judgment in Daniel, 164 BC. Prior to this the afterlife was Sheol, now heaven/hell is introduced. Persian period. Resurrection and hell existed in the Persian religion.
Resurrection of spirit. Some people are raised up to heaven, some to hell. New to the OT.









Thank you, then the Bible and it's teachings are not Hellenistic, because it is also the teaching in New Testament.
The wicked being punished is one thing. It has nothing to do with the Hellenistic elements used or borrowed from the Greeks. That one thing doesn't negate all the clear examples of Greek borrowings. This is absurd.



{e) Myth and rite


The best way to tackle the question of what the aim of the performance of the mysteries was, or in other words what kind of salvation the mystery cults promised, is to attempt to determine the relationship between myth and rite. Every cult is based on its own divine myth, which narrates what happens to a god; in most cases, he has to take a path of suffering and wandering, but this often leads to victory at the end. The rite depicts this path in abbreviated form and thus makes it possible for the initiand to be taken up into the story of the god, to share in his labours and above all in his victory. Thus there comes into being a ritual participation which contains the perspective of winning salvation (awrqpia). The hope for salvation can be innerworldly, looking for protection from life's many tribulations, e.g. sickness, poverty, dangers on journey, and death; but it can also look for something better in the life after death. It always involves an intensification of vitality and of life expectation, to be achieved through participation in the indestructible life of a god (cf in general terms Burkert 11: mysteries 'aimed at a change of mind through experience of the sacred').


The Religious Context of Early Christianity
A Guide to Graeco-Roman Religions

HANS-JOSEF KLAUCK
Professor of New Testament Exegesis, University of Munich, Germany









It is fascinating how easily you believe those claims.
That's hilarious. Which one of us is following scholarship and which one buys into a book of absolute mythology with gods, angels and all sorts of common myths? Yes, that would be you. But when I demonstrate evidence you find it "fascinating". I don't think that's what you find it at all.
This is probably the most outrageous thing I have ever heard on this forum. The work of scholars shouldn't be believed but one myth clearly influenced by older myths is fine. Unbelievable.

But here are the peer-reviewed works you can explain to me the evidence that shows they are wrong.


The third unit, 22:17–24:22, is headed "bend your ear and hear the words of the wise". A large part of this section is a recasting of a second-millennium BCE Egyptian work, the Instruction of Amenemope, and may have reached the Hebrew author(s) through an Aramaic translation.

The book is an anthology made up of six discrete units. The Proverbs of Solomon section, chapters 1–9, was probably the last to be composed, in the Persian or Hellenistic periods. This section has parallels to prior cuneiform writings.



  1. Rogers, Robert William (1912). "8. Fragment of Wisdom Literature". Cuneiform parallels to the Old Testament (1 ed.). New York: Eaton & Mains. Retrieved March 13, 2016.
  2. Alter, Robert (2010). The Wisdom Books: Job, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes: A Translation with Commentary. W.W. Norton & Co.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
It seems to me the greatest problem is that you don't know Christianity. Why do you think Christianity is a mystery religion?

I don't, scholars who study the period do. They are the experts. I have already given you much of the information which you ignore. Here is a basic run-down:

- how to spot trends in religions, at that time China, India, Iran did not have these religious concepts, the Mediterranean region did have saviors and similar mythology.


Apologists say Judaism would not allow outside influence, Judaism actually adapts and borrows material from surrounding cultures. Judaism is similar to other nearby Near Eastern religions.


One big influence, Persians, conquer Judea 539-332 B.C.



Persian religion, Zoroastrianism had ideas Judaism did not have but picked up.


- War of good God vs Evil God/light vs dark/ God vs Satan


- Bad people burn in hell, good people wait in heaven


- A river of fire will flow over the universe burning everything up (even hell itself)


- A new better world created in it’s place


- All good people will be resurrected by God to live in that new world happily ever after




Greeks conquer Judea 332 - 110 B.C.Greek idea (Hellenism) flow into Judaism





Romans conquered Judea 63 B.C. - 636 A.D. split off from East





Mystery cults, come from Greek religions. Every culture that was conquered by Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, Thracians, all took the Mystery cult theology and added it to their local religion and came up with the Mystery religions.





Basic Mystery cult, common features:



- Individuals “initiated” into the mysteries, ritually and by teaching sworn secrets about the universe. Something about the cosmos one needed to be saved, secrets. Many secrets are now lost.


- purpose was to gain salvation in the afterlife


- all use baptism and communion(communal meals)


- fictive kinship “brotherhood”

- Trends in Hellenistic religion


- Petra Pakkanen, Interpreting Early Hellenistic Religion (1996)


- Four big trends in religion in the centuries leading up to Christianity


- Christianity conforms to all four


Four Trends


- Syncretism: combining a foreign cult deity with Hellenistic elements. Christianity is a Jewish mystery religion.


- Henotheism: transforming / reinterpreting polytheism into monotheism. Judaism introduced monolatric concepts.


- Individualism: agricultural salvation cults retooled as personal salvation cults. Salvation of community changed into personal individual salvation in afterlife. All original agricultural salvation cults were retooled by the time Christianity arose.


- Cosmopolitianism: all races, cultures, classes admitted as equals, with fictive kinship (members are all brothers) you now “join” a religion rather than being born into it





Savior deities, dying/rising, pre-Christian, Osiris, Adonis, Romulus, Zalmoxis, Inanna (oldest 1700 B.C., female deity resurrected in 3 days)




Worship of Inanna was continued in Tyre during the origin of Christianity (Tyre is mentioned in Bible). Highly unlikely it’s a coincidence that a Jewish sect decided to build their own version of a dying/rising deity using the Jewish concepts of angels instead of Gods.


bad scholarship on internet, Horus not a dying/rising God. Mithras is also not. Mithras does undergo a passion, no death.


All Mystery religions have personal savior deities


- All saviors


- all son/daughter, never the supreme God (including Mithriasm)


- all undergo a passion (struggle) patheon


- all obtain victory over death which they share with followers


- all have stories set on earth


- none actually existed


- Is Jesus the exception and based on a real Jewish teacher or is it all made up?



mysteries


Elusinian Mysteries = Mycenaean + Hellenistic


Bacchic Mysteries = Phoenician + Hellenistic


Mysteries of Attis and Cybele = Phrygian + Hellenistic


Mysteries of Baal = Anatolian + Hellenistic


Mysteries of Mithras = Persian + Hellenistic


Mysteries of Isis and Osiris = Egyptian + Hellenistic


Christian Mysteries = Jewish + Hellenistic



Baptism, Christian version is different from Jewish/John the Baptist version of baptism. Differences are the same in all mystery religions.


- symbolic sharing of saviors ordeal


- to be born again (Osiris cult)


- united into brotherhood


- to be saved in afterlife


- cleaned of sin (Bacchus, Osiris, Mithras)


- baptism for dead (Paul mentions this 1 Cor, 15: 29)




Eucharist in Mystery religions


- become one with savior


- to be united in brotherhood


- saved in afterlife


- Lords Supper


- Rememberence, flesh/blood/death, 1 Cor 11:24-26


Christian Lords Supper is distinct in Jewish ways


Mysteries in scripture


1C. 4:1 We are entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed


R. 11:25 (Do not) be ignorant of this mystery


R. 16:25 (the) message I proclaim about Jesus Christ is in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past but now revealed


1C. 2:6, 7 (We) speak a message of wisdom among the mature….(and) declare God’s wisdom, a. Mystery that has been hidden


1C. 15:51 Listen I will tell you a mystery: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed


1C. 3:1-2 I could not address you as people who live by the spirit but as people who are still worldly - mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. (Milk and solid food is mystery cult terminology)


H. 5:13-14 Anyone living on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for that mature. (Clearly conceiving the religion in mystery terms)


Mark 4:11-12 (Jesus) told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables, so (they won’t understand)”


Dead giveaway Mark is conceiving the teachings in mystery cult terms



Jesus becomes the Temple. Kamran sect was also anti-temple. Jews were looking for ways to replace temple cults because of corruption etc….


Jesus gives permanent atonement and so on.




Christianity is a Jewish Mystery religion, syncretic, henotheistic, individualist, universal brotherhood, savior son of God with passion and myth, baptism, Lords supper as communion for salvation, mysteries reserved for initiated.





 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Biblical Christianity is monotheistic.


Monolatric, a supreme deity with lesser divinities, angels and other supernatural beings. Comes from Persian theology.
By what is said in the Bible, Jesus is a man and there is only one true God that is greater than Jesus. That is why the Osiris... claim fails.
In Osirus gospels it says he is the greatest god ever. In Zeus gospels it says Zeus is the greatest ever. The Persian text say their god is the greatest god ever.

This is priceless. You actually just used "it's true because the book says so" as a defense.
(hint, every religion makes the same claim)


God


t Zoroaster went much further, and in a startling departure from accepted beliefs proclaimed Ahura Mazda to be the one uncreated God, existing eternally, and Creator of all else that is good, including all other beneficent divinities.



Good vs evil and freewill





Harsh experience had evidently convinced the prophet that wisdom, justice and goodness were utterly separate by nature from wickedness and cruelty; and in vision he beheld, co-existing with Ahura Mazda, an Adversary, the 'Hostile Spirit', Angra Mainyu, equally uncreated, but ignorant and wholly malign. These two great Beings Zoroaster beheld with prophetic eye at their original, far-off encountering: 'Truly there are two primal Spirits, twins, renowned to be in conflict. In thought and word and act they are two, the good and the bad .... And when these two Spirits first encountered, they created life and not-life, and that at the end the worst existence shall be for the followers of falsehood (drug), but the best dwelling for those who possess righteousness (asha). Of the two Spirits, the one who follows falsehood chose doing the worst things, the Holiest Spirit, who is clad in the hardest stone [i.e. the sky] chose righteousness, and (so shall they all) who will satisfy Ahura Mazda continually '----1\n with just actions' (Y 30.3-5). essential element in this revelation is that the two primal Beings each made a deliberate choice (although each, it seems, according to his own proper nature) between good and evil, an act which prefigures the identical choice which every man must make for himself in this life . The exercise of choice changed the inherent antagonism between the two Spirits into an active one, which expressed itself, at a decision taken by Ahura Mazda, in creation and counter-creation, or, as the prophet put it, in the making of 'life' and 'not-life' (that is, death); for Ahura Mazda knew in his wisdom that if he became Creator and fashioned this world, then the Hostile Spirit would attack it, because it was good, and it would become a battleground for their two forces, and in the end he, God, would win the great struggle there and be able to destroy evil, and so achieve a universe which would be wholly good forever.





Freewill, choice


the basic Zoroastrian doctrine of the existence of free-will, and the power of each individual to shape his own destiny through the exercise of choice.


Revealed word


the Medes and the Persians held whauhey believed to be the revealed word of God.


Doctrines

fundamental doctrines became disseminated throughout the region, from Egypt to the Black Sea: namely that there is a supreme God who is the Creator; that an evil power exists which is opposed to him, and not under his control; that he has emanated many lesser divinities to help combat this power; that he has created this world for a purpose, and that in its present state it will have an end; that this end will be heralded by the coming of a cosmic Saviour, who will help to bring it about; that meantime heaven and hell exist, with an individual judgment to decide the fate of each soul at death; that at the end of time there will be a resurrection of the dead and a Last Judgment, with annihilation of the wicked; and that thereafter the kingdom of God will come upon earth, and the righteous will enter into it as into a garden (a Persian word for which is 'paradise'), and be happy there in the presence of God for ever, immortal themselves in body as well as soul. These doctrines all came to be adopted by various Jewish schools in the post-Exilic period, for the Jews were one of the peoples, it seems, most open to Zoroastrian influences - a tiny minority, holding staunchly to their own beliefs, but evidently admiring their Persian benefactors, and finding congenial elements in their faith. Worship of the one supreme God, and belief in the coming of a Messiah or Saviour, together with adherence to a way of life which combined moral and spiritual aspirations with a strict code of behaviour (including purity laws) were all matters in which Judaism and Zoroastrianism were in harmony; and it was this harmony, it seems, reinforced by the respect of a subject people for a great protective power, which allowed Zoroastrian doctrines to exert their influence. The extent of this influence is best attested, however, by Jewish writings of the Parthian period, when Christianity and the Gnostic faiths, as well as northern Buddhism, all likewise bore witness to the profound effect: which Zoroaster's teachings had had throughout the lands of the Achaernenian empire.



And still, even if the stories would be similar, it is not a proof that anyone copied anything. That is just your belief and opinion.
It's the opinion of all historians who study each period of the religion, that it uses Mesopotamian, Persian and Greek theology.

Again the Genesis borrowings are proven with intertextuality, you can demonstrate a text is reliant on another by using this.

But the Greek beliefs are exactly the changes we see in the NT from the OT.

I actually explained last time it isn't "proof". We don't have "proof" that Zeus doesn't exist but the evidence is vast. You can't even get this one simple concept down that I repeat over and over? You cannot be for real?


Greek theology used in NT,


the seasonal drama was homologized to a soteriology (salvation concept) concerning the destiny, fortune, and salvation of the individual after death.

-his led to a change from concern for a religion of national prosperity to one for individual salvation, from focus on a particular ethnic group to concern for every human. The prophet or saviour replaced the priest and king as the chief religious figure.

-his process was carried further through the identification of the experiences of the soul that was to be saved with the vicissitudes of a divine but fallen soul, which had to be redeemed by cultic activity and divine intervention. This view is illustrated in the concept of the paradoxical figure of the saved saviour, salvator salvandus.


-Other deities, who had previously been associated with national destiny (e.g., Zeus, Yahweh, and Isis), were raised to the status of transcendent, supreme


-The temples and cult institutions of the various Hellenistic religions were repositories of the knowledge and techniques necessary for salvation and were the agents of the public worship of a particular deity. In addition, they served an important sociological role. In the new, cosmopolitan ideology that followed Alexander’s conquests, the old nationalistic and ethnic boundaries had broken down and the problem of religious and social identity had become acute.


-Most of these groups had regular meetings for a communal meal that served the dual role of sacramental participation (referring to the use of material elements believed to convey spiritual benefits among the members and with their deity)

-Hellenistic philosophy (Stoicism, Cynicism, Neo-Aristotelianism, Neo-Pythagoreanism, and Neoplatonism) provided key formulations for Jewish, Christian, and Muslim philosophy, theology, and mysticism through the 18th century

- The basic forms of worship of both the Jewish and Christian communities were heavily influenced in their formative period by Hellenistic practices, and this remains fundamentally unchanged to the present time. Finally, the central religious literature of both traditions—the Jewish Talmud (an authoritative compendium of law, lore, and interpretation), the New Testament, and the later patristic literature of the early Church Fathers—are characteristic Hellenistic documents both in form and content.


-Other traditions even more radically reinterpreted the ancient figures. The cosmic or seasonal drama was interiorized to refer to the divine soul within man that must be liberated.

-Each persisted in its native land with little perceptible change save for its becoming linked to nationalistic or messianic movements (centring on a deliverer figure)

-and apocalyptic traditions (referring to a belief in the dramatic intervention of a god in human and natural events)

- Particularly noticeable was the success of a variety of prophets, magicians, and healers—e.g., John the Baptist, Jesus, Simon Magus, Apollonius of Tyana, Alexander the Paphlagonian, and the cult of the healer Asclepius—whose preaching corresponded to the activities of various Greek and Roman philosophic missionaries
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
If there is Potassium -40 in molten rock, there can also be Argon -40. And then it is possible that argon also in those conditions gets stuck in the minerals. Or do you have some good reason to believe Potassium doesn't decay when in the form of molten rock?

Same is with Uranium lead method. Decaying or its results could exist in molten rock, and it can lead to situation where rocks look older than they are. And this explains why the methods must always be calibrated to give "right" results. IF for example you date a rock that was formed in volcano today and don't know how old it should be, you get very wrong results.
As I said, I'm not interested in finding facts because when I stump you you will either, ignore or deny. Your recent proof of Jesus vs Osirus is that the Jesus book says he is better. You have completely ignored everything I sourced, pretended as if scholars don't know what they study, continue to harp on this "proof" thing when I've explained what that means, same with "opinion".

There isn't anything to date, it's a used myth. You also haven't given any actual geophysics sources who disagree with the list of reasons why a flood did not happen. Made up stuff doesn't count. Show me a geologist who has an actual theory.




The Enuma Elish would later be the inspiration for the Hebrew scribes who created the text now known as the biblical Book of Genesis. Prior to the 19th century CE, the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world and its narratives were thought to be completely original. In the mid-19th century CE, however, European museums, as well as academic and religious institutions, sponsored excavations in Mesopotamia to find physical evidence for historical corroboration of the stories in the Bible. These excavations found quite the opposite, however, in that, once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.



Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer, translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible.





Both Genesis and Enuma Elsih are religious texts which detail and celebrate cultural origins: Genesis describes the origin and founding of the Jewish people under the guidance of the Lord; Enuma Elish recounts the origin and founding of Babylon under the leadership of the god Marduk. Contained in each work is a story of how the cosmos and man were created. Each work begins by describing the watery chaos and primeval darkness that once filled the universe. Then light is created to replace the darkness. Afterward, the heavens are made and in them heavenly bodies are placed. Finally, man is created.



The Epic of Atraḥasis is the fullest Mesopotamian account of the Great Flood, with Atraḥasis in the role of Noah. It was written in the seventeenth century BCE



  • The supreme god Enlil's decision to extinguish mankind by a Great Flood
  • Atraḥasis is warned in a dream
  • Enki explains the dream to Atraḥasis (and betrays the plan)
  • Construction of the Ark
  • Boarding of the Ark
  • Departure
  • The Great Flood
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
In post 451 you said "it's the consensus opinion in Biblical historicity".

And obviously they are opinions, because they are not absolute proven facts.
OH. My GOd. This.

For the second time just in this recent series of posts I have to say it again. There is no "proof" that Santa Clause isn't real. There is no "proof" the Lord of the Rings isn't a true story. But the evidence that it is is vastly overwhelming.
Same with the historical studies of the Bible. It's absolutely a fictive story using elements from other myths that were popular at each time.

The last trend, Hellenism was going around influencing other religions, similar to Judaism, typical Near-Eastern deities, and transformed them into something like the NT with a savior, souls go to heaven, read the last post.

The Persian stuff is also beyond any doubt. The opinions of the experts is that Abe Lincon was real. We don't have "proof", but it's extremely likely that he was real. That is the opinion of historians. It is the opinion of Greek historians that Zeus and the other gods in classical Greek religions were fiction.
It is the opinion that Hellenism is also fiction and the borrowings in the NT are still fiction. It didn't become real just because Israel made a mystery religion.
It's opinion that Hercules is not a real deity. Same with the gospel Jesus. You don't have to "prove" it to have massive evidence it was myth and zero evidence that it was real.


Hebrew Bible scholar on early Yahweh and how it's a typical Near-Eastern religion, not unique at all:


Dr. Francesca Stavrakopoulou, Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Religion at the University of Exeter,



Francesca Stavrakopoulou PhD



9:00


The idea that the Israelite religion was extraordinary and different from religions of surrounding religions and cultures and this deity is somehow different and extraordinary and so this deity is wholly unlike all other deities in Southeast Asia. Historically this is not the case. Nothing unusual or extraordinary about Yahweh.


9:44 - Biblical ideas are based on ideas that Yahweh was unique. Nothing unique, find examples in much earlier religions, Yahweh is a local iteration of common deities



Francesca Stavrakopoulou Discusses Her Latest Book,




3:15 Yahweh is the same as older Greek gods. Anthropormorphic, dynamic, colorful, emotional, vivid, changeable, masculine, real body parts. In "God: An Anatomy" Francesca explains the Hebrew text is very explicit in this.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Persian religion, Zoroastrianism had ideas Judaism did not have but picked up.
And as I have show before, by what is said in the Bible, Yahweh had influence there and could be the source of the ideas, which would explain the similarities.
Mystery cults, come from Greek religions. Every culture that was conquered by Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, Thracians, all took the Mystery cult theology and added it to their local religion and came up with the Mystery religions.
Can you show the book where the ancient Greek teachings are?
- Syncretism: combining a foreign cult deity with Hellenistic elements. Christianity is a Jewish mystery religion.
Only for a person who has not read the Bible, or ignores what it says.
All Mystery religions have personal savior deities
- all have stories set on earth
I think crucial is what they said. What do you think is the greatest teaching of Mithra or Osiris?
Baptism, Christian version is different from Jewish/John the Baptist version of baptism. Differences are the same in all mystery religions.
- to be born again (Osiris cult)
Shows that one has not read the Bible, and doesn't know the meaning Jesus gave.
Mysteries in scripture

1C. 4:1 We are entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed
R. 11:25 (Do not) be ignorant of this mystery
R. 16:25 (the) message I proclaim about Jesus Christ is in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past but now revealed
1C. 2:6, 7 (We) speak a message of wisdom among the mature….(and) declare God’s wisdom, a. Mystery that has been hidden
1C. 15:51 Listen I will tell you a mystery: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed
1C. 3:1-2 I could not address you as people who live by the spirit but as people who are still worldly - mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. (Milk and solid food is mystery cult terminology)
H. 5:13-14 Anyone living on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for that mature. (Clearly conceiving the religion in mystery terms)
Mark 4:11-12 (Jesus) told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables, so (they won’t understand)”
In Bible the "mysteries" are explained, so no mystery remains.
Christianity is a Jewish Mystery religion
If it is a mystery religion, what is the mystery? I don't think there is any mystery anymore.
, syncretic, henotheistic, individualist, universal brotherhood, savior son of God with passion and myth, baptism, Lords supper as communion for salvation, mysteries reserved for initiated.
I think that is very shallow idea of Christianity and shows person doesn't know Jesus and what he said. For example Jesus didn't teach that communion is for salvation. That idea could be from someone who is not actually a Christian (=disciple of Jesus). What you say is about the same as saying, Osiris worshipers drank water, you drink water, you must be a Osiris worshiper and copying them.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Monolatric, a supreme deity with lesser divinities, angels and other supernatural beings. Comes from Persian theology.
The idea of may "gods" is in the Genesis, so you are claiming Genesis comes from Persians?
In Osirus gospels it says he is the greatest god ever. In Zeus gospels it says Zeus is the greatest ever. The Persian text say their god is the greatest god ever.
You could says, "I am the greatest god ever", would be as meaningful. I think the crucial thing is, what have they taught and said.
....are characteristic Hellenistic documents both in form and content.
....
Please tell, what document you are referring to?

And, although I think Christianity and Judaism is not the same as the other religions, not copied, I think it is true that many Christians and Jews have adopted practices from other religions and essentially rejected the Biblical teachings. For example a lot of OT is about how Jews rejected their God and followed foreign gods and practices. So, in part I think you are correct. However, I don't think the Biblical teachings are copied. If they are, I would like to see the original source text and information who wrote it, not the opinions.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.

Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer, translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible.
If we believe that is true and not fabricated, the next question is, who wrote them? Could it be that they were written by ancestors of Jews?
Both Genesis and Enuma Elsih are religious texts which detail and celebrate cultural origins: Genesis describes the origin and founding of the Jewish people under the guidance of the Lord; Enuma Elish recounts the origin and founding of Babylon under the leadership of the god Marduk. Contained in each work is a story of how the cosmos and man were created. Each work begins by describing the watery chaos and primeval darkness that once filled the universe. Then light is created to replace the darkness. Afterward, the heavens are made and in them heavenly bodies are placed. Finally, man is created.
So, if there are two stories about similar matters, does it confirm that things could have gone as told in the writings?

If the Bible is true and things went as told in the Bible, all nations should have similar stories, because they come from the same people. Similar stories doesn't necessary mean they copied, they just heard the stories from their grandparents that are off the same origin.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...Yahweh is the same as older Greek gods. Anthropormorphic, dynamic, colorful, emotional, vivid, changeable, masculine, real body parts. In "God: An Anatomy" Francesca explains the Hebrew text is very explicit in this.
And yet the Bible tells God is spirit. So, the Greek idea is very different.

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
John 4:24
He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8
We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.
1 John 4:16
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
And as I have show before, by what is said in the Bible, Yahweh had influence there and could be the source of the ideas, which would explain the similarities.
Nope, these are not in the Bible before the Persian influence.


Doctrines taken from Persia into Judiasm.
fundamental doctrines became disseminated throughout the region, from Egypt to the Black Sea: namely that there is a supreme God who is the Creator; that an evil power exists which is opposed to him, and not under his control; that he has emanated many lesser divinities to help combat this power; that he has created this world for a purpose, and that in its present state it will have an end; that this end will be heralded by the coming of a cosmic Saviour, who will help to bring it about; that meantime heaven and hell exist, with an individual judgment to decide the fate of each soul at death; that at the end of time there will be a resurrection of the dead and a Last Judgment, with annihilation of the wicked; and that thereafter the kingdom of God will come upon earth, and the righteous will enter into it as into a garden (a Persian word for which is 'paradise'), and be happy there in the presence of God for ever, immortal themselves in body as well as soul. These doctrines all came to be adopted by various Jewish schools in the post-Exilic period, for the Jews were one of the peoples, it seems, most open to Zoroastrian influences - a tiny minority, holding staunchly to their own beliefs, but evidently admiring their Persian benefactors, and finding congenial elements in their faith. Worship of the one supreme God, and belief in the coming of a Messiah or Saviour, together with adherence to a way of life which combined moral and spiritual aspirations with a strict code of behaviour (including purity laws) were all matters in which Judaism and Zoroastrianism were in harmony; and it was this harmony, it seems, reinforced by the respect of a subject people for a great protective power, which allowed Zoroastrian doctrines to exert their influence. The extent of this influence is best attested, however, by Jewish writings of the Parthian period, when Christianity and the Gnostic faiths, as well as northern Buddhism, all likewise bore witness to the profound effect: which Zoroaster's teachings had had throughout the lands of the Achaernenian empire.



The examples from the John Collins lecture are hyper-specific and were in Persian myth first.



Can you show the book where the ancient Greek teachings are?
They are in ancient Greek, scholars who study the period can translate them into english. Like the condensed list from expert J.Z, Smith I just gave to you.

Or you could listen to Dr Tabor, another specilist:

Death & Afterlife: Do Christians Follow Plato rather than Jesus or Paul?


Dr James Tabor





or you could read :


The Religious Context of Early Christianity


A Guide to Graeco-Roman Religions

HANS-JOSEF KLAUCK


Professor of New Testament Exegesis, University of Munich, Germany



or read this journal paper,


The Relationship between Hellenistic Mystery Religions and Early Christianity: A Case Study using Baptism and Eucharist
Jennifer Uzzell
February 2009



or:



Hellenistic Ideas of Salvation, Author(s): Paul Wendland


Source: The American Journal of Theology , Jul., 1913, Vol. 17, No. 3 (Jul., 1913), pp. 345-351


Published by: The University of Chicago Press Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/3154653


Only for a person who has not read the Bible, or ignores what it says.
Sorry, this statement - "- Syncretism: combining a foreign cult deity with Hellenistic elements. Christianity is a Jewish mystery religion."

is from Richard Carrier who studies the NT in the original Greek. If you go to his blog and look up articles in the Gospels and similar you will see he seems to know the entire thing by memorization. So that comment is truly bizarre. Also you haven't given one single example that demonstrated anything that was from the Bible. You tried to suggest a man being taken to heaven (Yahweh's home) was "resurrection".

Meanwhile ignoring 99.9% of all the Hellenistic changes to Judaism.




I think crucial is what they said. What do you think is the greatest teaching of Mithra or Osiris?
The mystery religions all taught the same thing in general, let's look:



Hellenistic Ideas of Salvation, Author(s): Paul Wendland
Source: The American Journal of Theology , Jul., 1913, Vol. 17, No. 3 (Jul., 1913), pp. 345-351
Published by: The University of Chicago Press Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/3154653

"Christian and Hellenistic ideas of redemption cannot be sharply separated.
The deity's resurrection from the dead gives to the initiates, who see their own destiny prefigured in his adventures, hope of a life after death"

"

The consciousness of estranecment between man and God, and a longing to bridge this chasm, are fundamental to all religions of redemption. In the development of antiquity from the sixth century B.c. on, this type of thought, for which the way is already pared in the older elements of popular faith, confronts us a definite and vigorously increasing religious movement. Reformers, prophets, and puritans propagate a profounder piety, which often mystic in character. The ecstatic Dionysus religion becomes the most important factor in this development. In this religion t common people, the poor and the needy, directly attain a more profound and personal relation to the deity. The believer loses his individual consciousness in enthusiasm and receives the divinity into himself. In moments of orgiastic ecstasy he experiences the ultimate goal of his existence, abiding fellowship with the god, who, as redeemer and savior will free him through death from the finiteness, the suffering, and the exigencies of the earthly life. Orphism sets forth this religious experience in a mystic theology which exerts a strong influence upon Pindar and Empedocles, for example, and which suggested to Plato his magnificent treatise on the dest of the soul. "

"From the second century A.D. on we possess rich source materials regarding the mystery cults and the profusion of new religious developments which grow out of the syncretism of the time. These sources acquaint us with the prevailing religious tendencies of antiquity in its declining period. Purification and rebirth, mystical union of the believer with the deity and the hope of bliss in the future world, revelation and charismatic endowment which essentially constitute redemption-these are the motives dominating the rites, sacraments, faith, and teaching of this syncretism. As enjoined in the liturgy of the Phrygian mysteries.


wThe relationship of Christianity to Hellenism appears closer in the Ephesian letter. Here Christ is the supreme power of the entire spirit-world, exalting believers above the bondage of the inferior spirits into his upper kingdom (1: 18-22). Christians must struggle with these spirits, among whom the sKoopoipdrope6 (astral spirits) are named. In like manner from the second century on Christ is more frequently extolled as a deliverer from the power of fate.' When Ignatius regards Christ's work as the communication of ryv^oaR and &0c9apria, and the Eucharist as food of immortality, he, like the author of the Fourth Gospel, shows the influence of Greek mysticism. Irenaeus' realistic doctrine of redemption also has, in common with Greek mysticism, the fundamental notions of deification, abolition of death, imperishability, and gnosis."


The NT is a Jewish version of the Mystery Religion.





Shows that one has not read the Bible, and doesn't know the meaning Jesus gave.

Right, Bible scholars haven't read the Bible. Fail.
Also, that's the point, Jewish baptism was different, Jesus gave it a new meaning, a HELLENISTIC MEANING. You walked right into that one.


In Bible the "mysteries" are explained, so no mystery remains.
Because you are a Christian. The many examples of mystery religion terminology are given. You know the mysteries because you read scripture. That is what a mystery religion is, by believing and reading scripture it's revealed. The mystery.
Did you actually think it means it remains a mystery? That is funny.
You walked right into that one as well.






If it is a mystery religion, what is the mystery? I don't think there is any mystery anymore.
Yeah, you did think that. Members of the cult get the mystery revealed in scripture. Its' a Jewish mystery religion.





I think that is very shallow idea of Christianity and shows person doesn't know Jesus and what he said. For example Jesus didn't teach that communion is for salvation. That idea could be from someone who is not actually a Christian (=disciple of Jesus). What you say is about the same as saying, Osiris worshipers drank water, you drink water, you must be a Osiris worshiper and copying them.
That is a summary, in his book Carrier explains:

"All mystery religions had an initiation ritual in which the congregant symbolically reenacts what the god endured, thus sharing in the salvation the god had achieved (Gal. 3.27; 1 Cor. 12, 13) and all involve a ritual meal that unites initiated members in communion with one another and their god (1 Cor. 11.23-28). All of these features are fundamental to Christianity, yet equally fundamental to all the mystery cults that were extremely popular in the very era that Christianity arose. The coincidence of all these features lining up this way is simply too improbable to propose as just an accident."
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The idea of may "gods" is in the Genesis, so you are claiming Genesis comes from Persians?
Polytheism is from earlier religions. Early Judaism was polytheistic. Yahweh was paired with a goddess Ashera. Hundreds of temples found at archaeological digs show goddess figurines and other evidence of this. Early Deuteronomy says Yahweh was given Israel from the supreme El who was the head of the pantheon.


The Persians were one of the first to spread monotheism or monolatrism.


God


t Zoroaster went much further, and in a startling departure from accepted beliefs proclaimed Ahura Mazda to be the one uncreated God, existing eternally, and Creator of all else that is good, including all other beneficent divinities.


The Iranian Impact on Judaism


excerpted from N. F. Gier, Theology Bluebook, Chapter 12





"It was not so much monotheism that the exilic Jews learned from the Persians as it was universalism, the belief that one God rules universally and will save not only the Jews but all those who turn to God. This universalism does not appear explicitly until Second Isaiah, which by all scholarly accounts except some fundamentalists, was written during and after the Babylonian exile. "




Monotheism is the belief that one god is the only deity

Monotheism characterizes the traditions of Zoroastrianism,

Monotheism is a complex and nuanced concept. The biblical authors had various ways of understanding God and the divine, shaped by their historical and cultural contexts. The notion of monotheism that is used today was developed much later, influenced by the Enlightenment and Christian views. Many definitions of monotheism are too modern, western, and Christian-centered to account for the diversity and complexity of the ancient sources, which include not only the biblical texts, but also other writings, inscriptions, and material remains that help reconstruct the ancient beliefs and practices of the people of Judah and Israel.

You could says, "I am the greatest god ever", would be as meaningful. I think the crucial thing is, what have they taught and said.
What do you mean "what did they teach and say"?????????????????


How many times do I have to post summaries from scholars who study them about their beliefs and practices?
Which should I re-post, Persian beliefs, Hellenistic beliefs, what are you talking about?????????????????






Please tell, what document you are referring to?
It says the NEW TESTAMENT is Hellenistic document in form and content.

And, although I think Christianity and Judaism is not the same as the other religions, not copied
Please provide evidence. You haven't explained away the Genesis borrowings, the Persian or Greek. There is nothing in the Bible about a final battle where all followers will be resurrected bodily on earth until they were exposed to it by the Persian myths. Same with Hellenism.
Do you need the list again from J.Z. Smith? It describes Christianity exactly. Yet it's the Hellenistic changes used by all mystery religions.

You haven't explained even one of those? You cannot think it's copied because it would destroy your beliefs, so you have to go to extreme denial.





 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I think it is true that many Christians and Jews have adopted practices from other religions and essentially rejected the Biblical teachings. For example a lot of OT is about how Jews rejected their God and followed foreign gods and practices. So, in part I think you are correct. However, I don't think the Biblical teachings are copied. If they are, I would like to see the original source text and information who wrote it, not the opinions.
You will either read the scholars explaining the religion or start learning how to read Egyptian, various tablets and many other languages.
This is obviously a red herring. I bet you trust the scholars who translate the Hebrew and Greek from the Bible. All monographs have original sources. If you cannot trust peer-reviewed scholarship to bring the best reading then I don't believe you, it's just another desperate attempt at whatever it is you are doing.

Osiris,

Not only does Plutarch say Osiris returned to life and was recreated, exact terms for resurrection (anabiôsis and paliggenesia: On Isis and Osiris 35; see my discussion in The Empty Tomb, pp. 154-55), and also describe his physically returning to earth after his death (Plutarch, On Isis and Osiris 19), but the physical resurrection of Osiris’s corpse is explicitly described in pre-Christian pyramid inscriptions! Osiris was also resurrected, according to Plutarch, on the “third day,” and died during a full moon, just like Christ: Passover occurs during the full moon; and in Plutarch, On Isis and Osiris 39 and 42, Osiris dies on the 17th of Athyr, the concluding day of the full moon, and is raised on the 19th, two days later—thus three days inclusively, just like Jesus.


Dionysus


Dionysus (also popularly known as Bacchus) had many different tales told of him, just as Osiris did. But in one popularly known, he was killed by being torn apart as a baby (Justin Martyr, Apology 1.21; Plutarch, On Isis and Osiris 35; Diodorus, Library of History 5.75.4 and 3.62.6); he was then resurrected by a human woman (Semele) conceiving a new body for him in her womb after drinking a magic slushy made from bits of his corpse (Hyginus, Fabulae 167). This is a literal resurrection again, just by an elaborate mechanism. The god definitely dies, and then returns to life by acquiring the same kind of body he once had, assembled and “regrown” from parts of his old one. In this version of his myth, he is a full god (son of Zeus and Persephone) but still mortal (capable of being killed by dismemberment, like a vampire); he then is “reborn” a demigod (from the womb of a fully mortal human woman). He was the savior god central to the Bacchic mysteries, one of the most widely known and celebrated in the Western world at that time. Those baptized into his cult received eternal life in paradise; and just like Christians (1 Corinthians 15:29), Dionysians could even baptize themselves on behalf of deceased loved ones, and thus rescue those already dead.


Zalmoxis


Zalmoxis was also a resurrected savior. Greeks making fun of the Thracian cult worshiping him made up the polemic that he didn’t really die, he just hid in a cave, and thus pretended to have resurrected from the dead. But this polemic tells us the Thracians did believe Zalmoxis had died and rose from the dead, and appeared to disciples on earth to prove it (see my discussion in Not the Impossible Faith, pp. 100-05).



Original sources are in Carrier's book OHJ,

original sources are in :

The Religious Context of Early Christianity


A Guide to Graeco-Roman Religions
HANS-JOSEF KLAUCK


Professor of New Testament Exegesis, University of Munich, Germany


J.Z. Smith -

The influence of Hellenistic religions​

The archaic gods worshiped during the Hellenistic period possessed a remarkable longevity. The Eleusinian Mysteries, founded in the 15th century BC, ceased in the 4th century AD; Dionysus, whose name first appears on tablets dated to c. 1400 BC, was last celebrated in the beginning of the 6th century AD; the last temple of Isis, whose cult extended back to the 2nd millennium BC in Egypt, was closed in AD 560. Yet even after these ceased as objects of devotion in the post-Constantinian period, they continued to exercise their influence. Hellenistic philosophy (Stoicism, Cynicism, Neo-Aristotelianism, Neo-Pythagoreanism, and Neoplatonism) provided key formulations for Jewish, Christian, and Muslim philosophy, theology, and mysticism through the 18th century. Hellenistic magic, theurgy, astrology, and alchemy remained influential until modern times in both East and West. Theosophy and other forms of the occult, especially since the Renaissance, drew their inspiration from the Hellenistic mystery cults, Hermeticism (Greco-Egyptian astrological, magical, and occultic movement), and Gnosticism. Various Jewish, Christian, and Muslim sectarian groups continued the theologies of many of the Hellenistic religions (especially dualistic modes of thought). Hellenistic sacred art and architecture has remained a basis of Christian and Jewish iconography and architecture to the present day. Figures such as Alexander the Great inspired a vast body of religious literature, especially in the Middle Ages. Many of the symbols and legends associated with Hellenistic deities persisted in folk literature and hagiography (stories of saints and “holy” persons). The basic forms of worship of both the Jewish and Christian communities were heavily influenced in their formative period by Hellenistic practices, and this remains fundamentally unchanged to the present time. Finally, the central religious literature of both traditions—the Jewish Talmud (an authoritative compendium of law, lore, and interpretation), the New Testament, and the later patristic literature of the early Church Fathers—are characteristic Hellenistic documents both in form and content.
 
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