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Did Jesus Christ Actually Exist?

joelr

Well-Known Member
If we believe that is true and not fabricated,
Why would all scholarship, all of them fabricate this huge lie, the entire world of historians agree somehow on this lie, and the peer-review panel always also passes the lie to fool the world. That is your idea? The alternate is your story is a mythology with borrowed stories. That is extremely likely. You are going to ridiculous lengths now to save your beliefs.

You can believe whatever you want. I am interested in what is actually true. All scholars agreeing on this is a good sign that it is correct.




the next question is, who wrote them? Could it be that they were written by ancestors of Jews?
No, the Jewish people formed around 1200 BCE. There is several lines of evidence, plus DNA that they came down from Canaanite cities.
The ancestors are Canaanite who worshipped El. That is it. When the Jews began writing their stories around 600 they used older stories and updated them for Yahweh. Abraham is a mythical person from the past. A very common myth in all these religions, a first man to form a nation. His name even means "father of a multitude" in Hebrew. In fiction/myth, a characters name will be his function.


If you want to know, Joel Baden is one of the top Hebrew Bible scholars, he explains this:

Canaanites Were Israelites & There Was No Exodus




Prof. Joel Baden

1:20 DNA shows close relationship between Israelites and Canaanites. Israelites ARE Canaanites who moved to a different place.


6:10 Consensus. Biblical story of Exodus and people coming from Egypt and taking over through battle is not true. With slight variations here and there basically everyone will tell you they gradually came from the coastlands into the highlands. Canaanites moved away to the highlands and slowly became a unified nation after first splitting into tribes.

No Israelites until after 1000 BCE.


18:18 Isaiah 1 is 8th century. Ch 40 is suddenly different. Cyrus shows up, enter end times, Persian influence. Messianic concepts.

The only reason one would not see this is if committed to the idea that it’s not written in separate parts.






So, if there are two stories about similar matters, does it confirm that things could have gone as told in the writings?

If the Bible is true and things went as told in the Bible, all nations should have similar stories, because they come from the same people. Similar stories doesn't necessary mean they copied, they just heard the stories from their grandparents that are off the same origin.
All nations do not have similar stories. Not even close. The nations that do are the nations the Israelite kings were exiled to and Israel.

Later the Persians and Israel are similar after the Persians occupied them for centuries, same with the Greeks. Only the nations the Greeks occupied had mystery religions.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
And yet the Bible tells God is spirit. So, the Greek idea is very different.
So you are wrong on so many levels, it's hard to even know where to start.

1) You are responding to -
"Yahweh is the same as older Greek gods. Anthropormorphic, dynamic, colorful, emotional, vivid, changeable, masculine, real body parts. In "God: An Anatomy" Francesca explains the Hebrew text is very explicit in this."

if you bother to listen to the clip, she is talking about the first 5 books, Yahweh is a typical Mesopotamian deity. He walks with people, wrestles people. has a fform and body. Every body part is described in the original Hebrew, which Fransesca details in her book. She gives examples of the same stories that early Yahweh does like fight the Leviathan, it's all exactly the same.

So what is your response? To ignore old Hebrew stories and go right to ...................JOHN?????? WHAT????? You go right to the Hellenistic stuff, and then think I'm wrong about the Hebrew stuff? How can you possibly mess this up this bad?


God as spirit was NOT A HEBREW IDEA. It was a Greek idea and that is why the NT changes Yahweh.


How many times have I posted the list from Smith about Hellenistic changes in theology, which includes.............."

-Other deities, who had previously been associated with national destiny (e.g., Zeus, Yahweh, and Isis), were raised to the status of transcendent, supreme"








Although the biblical narratives depict Yahweh as the sole creator god, lord of the universe, and god of the Israelites especially, initially he seems to have been Canaanite in origin and subordinate to the supreme god El. Canaanite inscriptions mention a lesser god Yahweh and even the biblical Book of Deuteronomy stipulates that “the Most High, El, gave to the nations their inheritance” and that “Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob and his allotted heritage” (32:8-9). A passage like this reflects the early beliefs of the Canaanites and Israelites in polytheism or, more accurately, henotheism (the belief in many gods with a focus on a single supreme deity). The claim that Israel always only acknowledged one god is a later belief cast back on the early days of Israel's development in Canaan.














As Dr Tabor points out,


The New Testament comes out of a wholly different milieu. First, it is part and parcel of the broad changes in religious thought that we know as "Hellenization."It is characterized by a vast and expanded dualistic cosmos, an emphasis on immortality and personal salvation,i.e.,one scaping this world fo ra better heavenly life. At the same time, and to be more specific,it is absolutely and completely dominated by an apocalyptic world view of things, whereby all will be soon resolved by the decisive intervention of God, the End of the Age, the last greatJudgment, and the eternalKingdom of God. In addition, the Christology that develops, even in the first century, is thoroughly"Hellenistic," with Jesus the human transformed into the pre-existent, divine, Son of God, who sits at the right hand of God and is Lord of the cosmos.The whole complex of ideas about multiple levels of heavens, fate, angels, demons, miracles and magic abound.It is as if all the questions that the HebrewBible only begins to explore - questions about theodicy, justice, human purpose, history, death, sin - are all suddenly answered with a loud and resounding " Yes ! " There is little, if any struggle left . There are few haunting questions, and no genuine tragedy or meaningless suffering.All is guaranteed it will shortly be worked out.


Of course, various attempts are made to reinterpret this early Christianity for our time. usually in terms of ethics or some exis -


tential core of truth . But early Christianity rests on two essential points, both of which resist easy demythologozation: it is a religious movement built on apoctalyptic view of history and an evaluation of Jesus as a Hellenistic deity, i.e., a pre-existent divine Savior God in whom all ultimate meaning rests. If thes eare unacceptable in the modem world, or incompatible with the fundamental Hebrew view of things, then the whole system becomes difficult, if not superfluous.


James Tabor


Reflections on the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament



God as a spirit IS A GREEK IDEA, John is in the NT which is a Hellenistic document in form and content.
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
John 4:24
He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8
We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.
1 John 4:16

Thank you for answering a point about early Hebrew Yahweh with the latest NT gospel???????????????????????







NOT A SPIRIT IN THE OT, each chapter in Fransesca's book goes over original Hebrew passages in they Bible about descriptions of Yahweh's body.
The Greek ideas of god was of a spirit, beyond this realm.



Yahweh[a] was an ancient Levantine deity, and national god of the Israelite kingdoms of Israel and Judah.[4] Though no consensus exists regarding the deity's origins,[5] scholars generally contend that Yahweh is associated with Seir, Edom, Paran and Teman,[6] and later with Canaan. The origins of his worship reach at least to the early Iron Age, and likely to the Late Bronze Age, if not somewhat earlier.[7]

In the oldest biblical literature, he possesses attributes typically ascribed to weather and war deities, fructifying the land and leading the heavenly army against Israel's enemies.[8] The early Israelites were polytheistic and worshipped Yahweh alongside a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah and Baal.[9]

In later centuries, El and Yahweh became conflated and El-linked epithets such as El Shaddai came to be applied to Yahweh alone.[10] But some scholars believe El and Yahweh were always conflated.[11][12][13] Characteristics of other gods, such as Asherah and Baal, were also selectively "absorbed" in conceptions of Yahweh.[14][15][16]
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
For example, what has Osiris ever said?
What did Jesus say? His words are just repeats of Rabbi Hillell who died in 10 AD.



What matters is that he was a dying/rising savior and got salvation for followers. We don't have Osirus wisdom text that I know of. We don't have proof that Jesus said any of those words either. They are nothing that Hillel didn't already say?




"And indeed, carved on the walls of the pyramids centuries before Christianity began were the declarations of the goddess Isis (or Horus, or their agents), “I have come to thee…that I may revivify thee, that I may assemble for thee thy bones, that I may collect for thee thy flesh, that I may assemble for thee thy dismembered limbs…raise thyself up, king, [as for] Osiris; thou livest!” (Pyramid Texts 1684a-1685a and 1700, = Utterance 606; cf. Utterance 670); “Raise thyself up; shake off thy dust; remove the dirt which is on thy face; loose thy bandages!” (Pyramid Texts 1363a-b, = Utterance 553); “[As for] Osiris, collect thy bones; arrange thy limbs; shake off thy dust; untie thy bandages; the tomb is open for thee; the double doors of the coffin are undone for thee; the double doors of heaven are open for thee…thy soul is in thy body…raise thyself up!” (Pyramid Texts 207b-209a and 2010b-2011a, = Utterance 676). That sure sounds like a physical resurrection of Osiris’s body to me. (As even confirmed by the most recent translation of James P. Allen, cf. pp. 190, 224-25, 272. The spells he clarifies are sung to and about the resident Pharaoh, but in the role of Osiris, receiving the same resurrection as Osiris, e.g. “there has been done for me what was done for my father Osiris on the day of tying bones together, of making functional the feet,” “do for him that which you did for his brother Osiris on the day,” etc.)


Plutarch goes on to explicitly state that this resurrection on earth (set in actual earth history) in the same body he died in (reassembled and restored to life) was the popular belief, promoted in allegorical tales by the priesthood—as was also the god’s later descent to rule Hades. But the secret “true” belief taught among the initiated priesthood was that Osiris becomes incarnate, dies, and rises back to life every year in a secret cosmic battle in the sublunar heavens."


Another similar myth, Romulus, older than Christianity,


Romulus


1- The hero son of god


2 - His death is accompanied by prodigies


3 - The land is covered in darkness


4- The heroes corpse goes missing


5 - The hero receives a new immortal body, superior to the one he had


6 - His resurrection body has on occasion a bright shining appearance


7 - After his resurrection he meets with a follower on the road to the city


8 - A speech is given from a summit or high place prior to ascending


9 - An inspired message of resurrection or “translation to heaven” is delivered to witnesses


10 - There is a great commission )an instruction to future followers)


11- The hero physically ascends to heaven in his divine new body


12 - He is taken up into a cloud


13 - There is an explicit role given to eyewitness testimony (even naming the witnesses)


14 - Witnesses are frightened by his appearance and or disappearance


15 - Some witnesses flee


16 - Claims are made of dubious alternative accounts


17 - All of this occurs outside of a nearby but central city


18 - His followers are initially in sorrow over his death


19 - But his post-resurrection story leads to eventual belief, homage and rejoicing


20 - The hero is deified and cult subsequently paid to him (in the same manner as a God)

What did he say? Whatever Roman wisdom was, like Jesus, was written into stories as if he said it. That is how myth works. In the NT Hillite type wisdom was put to the character of the demigod Jesus. Neither were real supernatural deities.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
What did Jesus say? His words are just repeats of Rabbi Hillell who died in 10 AD.
If that is true, why he was not treated like Jesus?
What matters is that he was a dying/rising savior and got salvation for followers.
To me such a claim is irrelevant. You could as well claim that your dad did the same.
We don't have Osiris wisdom text that I know of.
So, why think he was something great?
Romulus

1- The hero son of god
2 - His death is accompanied by prodigies
3 - The land is covered in darkness
4- The heroes corpse goes missing
5 - The hero receives a new immortal body, superior to the one he had
6 - His resurrection body has on occasion a bright shining appearance
7 - After his resurrection he meets with a follower on the road to the city
8 - A speech is given from a summit or high place prior to ascending
9 - An inspired message of resurrection or “translation to heaven” is delivered to witnesses
10 - There is a great commission )an instruction to future followers)
11- The hero physically ascends to heaven in his divine new body
12 - He is taken up into a cloud
13 - There is an explicit role given to eyewitness testimony (even naming the witnesses)
14 - Witnesses are frightened by his appearance and or disappearance
15 - Some witnesses flee
16 - Claims are made of dubious alternative accounts
17 - All of this occurs outside of a nearby but central city
18 - His followers are initially in sorrow over his death
19 - But his post-resurrection story leads to eventual belief, homage and rejoicing
20 - The hero is deified and cult subsequently paid to him (in the same manner as a God)
But had noting said that people would have thought worth recording. Not very impressive. But, it is interesting why do you believe that is not just later fabrication to make him look like Jesus?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
So you are wrong on so many levels, it's hard to even know where to start.

1) You are responding to -
"Yahweh is the same as older Greek gods. Anthropormorphic, dynamic, colorful, emotional, vivid, changeable, masculine, real body parts. In "God: An Anatomy" Francesca explains the Hebrew text is very explicit in this."

if you bother to listen to the clip, she is talking about the first 5 books, ...
It seems then that the OT is greatly misunderstood, as it says no on can see God and stay alive. People who claim to have really seen the God, would be dead, and as it is said, dead men tell no tales.

And he said, You are not able to see My face; for no man can see Me and live.
Ex. 33:20
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Also, the time is too short for legends to develop. Historians agree it takes about two generations, or eighty years, for legendary accounts to establish themselves.
Two generations? Ha! There are a bunch of legends that were conceived of and took hold in less far less than a decade:
  • Area 51
  • Elvis sightings
  • Gray alien abductions
  • 9/11 conspiracy theories
  • Dungeons and Dragons being Satanic
  • Autism being caused by vaccines
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
If that is true, why he was not treated like Jesus?


We don't know how Jesus was treated? Mark, a highly educated writer took his character and wrote a Hellenistic savior demigod myth about him. Obviously he's going to include a passion and people reacting to him and so on, it's a story, exciting things have to take place. We can see the models he used, Moses, Elijah, Romulus, Hellenism, Hellenistic Judaism (which dies out and this may be the pre-cursor).

Hillel wasn't mythicized to have demigod powers. But he was well known and respected. If you write a story about a savior demigod, obviously people are going to treat him like a savior demigod in the story?


To me such a claim is irrelevant. You could as well claim that your dad did the same.

So you don't think he was a savior who resurrected?

My dad didn't make that claim. An educated writer who wrote historical fiction and used all the markers of that style, did make that claim. As did many other Hellenistic savior sons/daughters of a supreme god.

When someone makes a claim 2000 years ago, and we look and see that it was a literary/religious trend, and we see the origins, and the story is written in fictive language, re-writes older stories, it's probably just a story.



So, why think he was something great?
I don't think Osirus was great. I think he was the savior in a Hellenistic religion. Like Jesus was the savior in a Jewish version of the same type of religion. I don't think Jesus was great either, the story is fiction.





But had noting said that people would have thought worth recording.


Are you kidding me? He was the founder and savior of Rome? They had writings about Romulus everywhere. The religion didn't go past Rome.
Christianity purposely goes to other nations and tells people "no this one is the actual true one", and people will buy into that . Also Rome made it law to be Christian later on. It spread by force in many cases.





Not very impressive. But, it is interesting why do you believe that is not just later fabrication to make him look like Jesus?
It's not supposed to be impressive. But it clearly is similar to Jesus and clearly Mark used some elements to write the Jesus tale.


Romulus was written in 4 BCE. It was set in actual form in 3 BCE. All experts agree. Writings from that century speak of Romulus, Rome was founded on this story and Rome did not form after Jesus.
Your question doesn't even consider some basic and obvious questions. You are just throwing mud at the wall hoping something would stick. The truth has been left far behind, anything to make the story work.

You ask me why I don't believe Romulus was copying Jesus? That is like asking was George Washington just copying John Kennedy? The answer is because I care about what is actually true. Entire fields of experts are not wrong because the evidence they present is uncomfortable for me. That is the opposite of finding out what is true. I accept the evidence and move on from there.

Dionysius of Halicarnassus, a Greek historian,
cites, among others, the histories of Pictor, Lucius Calpurnius Piso, Cato the Elder, Lucius Cincius Alimentus.
The first book of Dionysius' twenty-volume history of Rome does not mention Remus until page 235 (chapter 71). After spending another 8 chapters discussing the background of their birth in Alba, he dedicates a total of 9 chapters to the tale (79–87). Most of that is spent discussing the conflict with Amulius.

He goes on to discuss the various accounts of the city's founding by others, and the lineage and parentage of the twins for another 8 chapters until arriving at the tale of their abandonment by the Tiber. He spends the better part of the chapter 79 discussing the survival in the wild. Then the end of 79 through 84 on the account of their struggle with Amulius. 84 with the non-fantastical account of their survival 294. Finally 295 is the augury 85–86, 87–88 the fratricide.




Plutarch relates the legend in chapters 2–10 of the Life of Romulus. He dedicates the most attention, nearly half the entire account, to conflict with Amulius.


Many other historians of the time mention the Romulus story from the 3rd century.


Why would I ever be like "yeah they are all wrong" just to re-arrange history to make an already implausible story work?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
It seems then that the OT is greatly misunderstood, as it says no on can see God and stay alive. People who claim to have really seen the God, would be dead, and as it is said, dead men tell no tales.

And he said, You are not able to see My face; for no man can see Me and live.
Ex. 33:20
Uh, the word isn't "misunderstood", it's "contradiction" because you already know Yahweh wrestled with Jacob and made other appearances.

Yahweh walks in camp, Deut 23 12-14
Moses talks to him face to face as one would a friend. Exodus 24.9-10; 33.11
Abraham walks along side him. Isaiah and Ezekial each see god sitting on his throne, Amos sees him standing in one of his temples.

Jesus says he has seen god and sat beside him.

Isaiah 6.1-4
Ezekial 1.1-28
Amos 9.1
Mark 16.19
John 6.46
acts 7.54-56
Revelation 4.1-5.14

Written into the Torah, the command to see Yahweh's face was a formalized reflection of the deity's long held desire to be seen. "Seek my face!" he called to his worshippers.

In one Psalm worshippers who ascend the hill of Yahweh will receive blessings as they behold the deity's face.
Psalm 24. 3-6

Because John and 1 Timothy changed the myth to reflect modern gods, Hellenistic ideas about an unseen god beyond what we can see and our dimension, doesn't change the fact that the early myths had Yahweh a typical god of that time. Myths change with the times as new ideas are adopted into the culture.

There are many more instances of people seeing Yahweh.


Origen (using Plato's One) said God was-

A perfect unity, indivisible, incorporeal, transcending all things material. The Logos (Christ) is the creative principle that permeates the created universe.

The One and the Logos are from Plato,

Theologians were all based on Plato - Jesus, Agustine, Boethius Anslem, Aquinas


"In some sense Christianity is taking Greco-Roman moral philosophy and theology and delivering it to the masses, even though they are unaware"


Plato and Christianity




The real question is why would you say "the Bible says" and quote one or two places, meanwhile there are many many more instances where this is shown to be clearly untrue? Are you the person who says what is to be taken serious in scripture and what is to be ignored? Contradictions are expected, it's a made up story.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Uh, the word isn't "misunderstood", it's "contradiction" because you already know Yahweh wrestled with Jacob and made other appearances.
It is not a contradiction, if you read the texts and understand them correctly. For example in the case of Jacob, the Bible tells it was a man who wrestled with Jacob.

When he saw that he didn't prevail against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh, and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was strained, as he wrestled. The man said, "Let me go, for the day breaks." Jacob said, "I won't let you go, unless you bless me."
Genesis 32:25-26
Yahweh walks in camp, Deut 23 12-14
Doesn't mean people saw him.
Moses talks to him face to face as one would a friend. Exodus 24.9-10; 33.11
"Face to face" can mean directly, not necessary that one has seen ones face directly.
....Hellenistic ideas about an unseen god ...
So, the Ex. 33:20 comes from Greeks? :D
 

1213

Well-Known Member
We don't know how Jesus was treated? ....

Hillel wasn't mythicized to have demigod powers. But he was well known and respected....
I mean, Jesus is still held as heretic by many Jews. Why is Hillel not held as heretic, if he spoke the same things?
My dad didn't make that claim. An educated writer who wrote historical fiction
Interesting, you also seem to write historical fiction.
I don't think Osirus was great. I think he was the savior in a Hellenistic religion.
Egyptian religion is Hellenistic?
It's not supposed to be impressive. But it clearly is similar to Jesus and clearly Mark used some elements to write the Jesus tale.
:D
 
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