Please explain why do you think people can't have similar ideas independently? And why do you think Jews had no other thoughts than what are written in the Bible?
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Did Jesus Christ Actually Exist?
- Thread starter Comradio251
- Start date
The biblical verses Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:24 record crucial moments during the crucifixion of Jesus. In Matthew 27:46, Jesus exclaims, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which is translated as "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" In Mark 15:24, it is mentioned that they cast lots to divide Jesus' garments. To understand these verses, it is essential to consider the broader context of the Scriptures.
Looking at Psalm 22, which Jesus quotes on the cross, we see that it begins with a profound lament where the psalmist expresses distress and a sense of abandonment. However, the psalm does not end in despair; on the contrary, as we progress through the verses, there is a change in tone.
In Psalm 22:24, we read, "For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him." This is a powerful statement highlighting God's faithfulness in responding to the cry of the afflicted. The context of the final verses of Psalm 22 (from verse 23 to 31) is one of praise and trust in God, acknowledging His sovereignty and providence.
Therefore, considering Jesus' quotation of Psalm 22 on the cross, we can interpret that He was expressing the deep agony of feeling separated from God in the midst of suffering. However, the complete understanding of Psalm 22, especially when read to the end, emphasizes that God did not forsake the afflicted, and the situation eventually turns into praise and trust in divine faithfulness.
Furthermore, the Christian Bible (New Testament) provides additional insights. In John 16:32, Jesus speaks to the disciples about the impending hour of the cross, stating, "Behold, the hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home, and will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me." This statement highlights God's constant presence even in the most challenging moments of Jesus' life.
Therefore, considering the broader context of the Scriptures, we can conclude that God did not abandon Jesus on the cross, and the quotation from Psalm 22 reflects Jesus' profound anguish but also points to confidence in divine faithfulness, as expressed in the subsequent verses of that Psalm and in other passages of the Christian Bible (New Testament).
This is very complex, but it is in fact what happened to Jesus: God did not abandon him and deliver him.
Pliny the Younger on Christians
Being opponents of Christianity, it constitutes reliable testimony that there was a Christ venerated/worshipped as God/god.
joelr
Well-Known Member
A lot has happened since the 1985 book sourced in that article. Carrier has an article with his experience of learning about Q and then what he found in research. He considers it a complete lie. He also names several scholars who agree.
Why Do We Still Believe in Q? • Richard Carrier Blogs
Q is a hypothetical Gospel. The letter Q stands for Quelle, German for “Source.” It has long been a popular hypothesis, and it serves a lot of agendas well. But there is no evidence whatever for it. Q never existed. And there is no rational reason to believe it did. Instead, it is defended with […]
www.richardcarrier.info
The basic message he's putting forth is this:
"That’s the lesson I learned from Q. Never trust anyone in this field. Never trust the consensus in this field. Until you have double-checked its validity by some dependable means. Not because they are all liars. But because there are so many lies no one has checked the truth of, so many fallacies no one has vetted the logic of. They instead just believe what they were taught. And keep repeating it. Or just keep citing “the consensus,” without ever actually checking if that consensus rests on sound facts or valid logic.
Q is one more product of that hall of fallacies and falsehoods."
The only thing I can say is it's true that with religious material there are many assumptions left alone until some scholar who isn't bound by his superiors in a university position starts investigating. Of course you have to fact check for yourself that the claims are actually unsupported.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Litwa teaches a course on the Mystery religions and that includes Christianity.
Everything he says is exactly what I've been saying. The OT is a mix of Mesopotamian/Persian influence and the NT is Hellenism. What he means in that quote is it's sometimes a complex mix of back and forth influences.
"The truth is, both ancient Judaism and early Christianity were a mixture of religious movements inhabiting Greco-Roman culture. So even if one wishes to imagine that early Christianity is a circle in the larger circle of Judaism, then ancient Judaism was itself a circle in the larger circle of Mediterranean culture and religion."
Litwa
joelr
Well-Known Member
You have 2 choices. You cannot use wishy-washy special pleading.
Either the Quran proves Islam, the Mormon Bible proves Mormonism and so on, or none of them do.
Your book doesn't have any better evidence than any other. In fact the evidence is strongly in favor of borrowed mythology, as all historical scholars say and demonstrate with evidence.
Also, face palm. A big one. Several in fact.
You literally just said, once again, "it's true because the books says so".
They are far more than similar. They are also far older. Sumerian and Mesopotamian are 1000 years older. Greek religions that are extremely similar to Christianity started around 300 BCE.
The Persian borrowings are also far far too exact to be coincidence.
In case you forgot:
Persians, conquer Judea 539-332 B.C.
Persian religion, Zoroastrianism had ideas Judaism did not have but picked up.
- War of good God vs Evil God/light vs dark/ God vs Satan
- Bad people burn in hell, good people wait in heaven
- A river of fire will flow over the universe burning everything up (even hell itself)
- A new better world created in it’s place
- All good people will be resurrected by God to live in that new world happily ever after
Greeks conquer Judea 332 - 110 B.C.Greek idea (Hellenism) flow into Judaism
Mystery cults, come from Greek religions. Every culture that was conquered by Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, Thracians, all took the Mystery cult theology and added it to their local religion and came up with the Mystery religions.
Basic Mystery cult, common features:
- Individuals “initiated” into the mysteries, ritually and by teaching sworn secrets about the universe. Something about the cosmos one needed to be saved, secrets. Many secrets are now lost.
- purpose was to gain salvation in the afterlife
- all use baptism and communion(communal meals)
- fictive kinship “brotherhood”
Four Trends in Mystery religions
- Syncretism: combining a foreign cult deity with Hellenistic elements. Christianity is a Jewish mystery religion.
- Henotheism: transforming / reinterpreting polytheism into monotheism. Judaism introduced monolatric concepts.
- Individualism: agricultural salvation cults retooled as personal salvation cults. Salvation of community changed into personal individual salvation in afterlife. All original agricultural salvation cults were retooled by the time Christianity arose.
- Cosmopolitianism: all races, cultures, classes admitted as equals, with fictive kinship (members are all brothers) you now “join” a religion rather than being born into it
- Christianity conforms to all four
Savior deities, dying/rising, pre-Christian, Osiris, Adonis, Romulus, Zalmoxis, Inanna (oldest 1700 B.C., female deity resurrected in 3 days)
All Mystery religions have personal savior deities
- All saviors
- all son/daughter, never the supreme God (including Mithriasm)
- all undergo a passion (struggle) patheon
- all obtain victory over death which they share with followers
- all have stories set on earth
- none actually existed
- Is Jesus the exception and based on a real Jewish teacher or is it all made up?
There is zero chance this is all a coincidence.
Clearly you have never read any Greek stories/poetry. Or Greek philosophy. The Hindu stories are often fantastic. The first human known story was Hymm to Inanna by a woman, Edheduanna. It's actually brilliant.
But I have no idea what you mean by "there was really something " , now Zeus and Thor are real too? Ok?
Also, you are calling other peoples imagination "poor" yet you are the one claiming a folk tale, clearly fiction is real? Wow.
OMG. Everything is a nitpick. "Probably", the revelations from the angel Moroni that Jesus came to America, that only Mormons have the full truth of Jesus, that only Mormons will go to an afterlife, that Jesus only accepts Mormons as the true followers, you don't believe is true.
How hard is that to say?
Oh wait, the scripture is the proof ! Right?! So looks like Mormonism is true.
Book of Moroni 1-34
Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good; and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites; and I would that they should know that more than four hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ........
And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.
And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.
And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them.
For behold, to one is given by the Spirit of God, that he may teach the word of wisdom;.......
19 And I would exhort you, my beloved brethren, that ye remember that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and that all these gifts of which I have spoken, which are spiritual, never will be done away, even as long as the world shall stand, only according to the unbelief of the children of men.
And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth -- that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.
That's you, unbelief in Mormonism. And it's true because the book says so.
Really. Where in the Bible does it say the Christians follow that false messiah son of Mary? By what you know???????????????????????
Surah 9: Repentance (Al-Tawbah)
And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
32 Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse.
O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom,
On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded therewith (and it will be said unto them): Here is that which ye hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what ye used to hoard
This is also all true, I know because of the scripture. The scripture is proof it's real. It says so.
joelr
Well-Known Member
I didn't say they had no other thoughts, I said their theology was written down to be complete.
This isn't "similar ideas", they are borrowed stories. Just Genesis alone is far beyond "similar ideas".
But how scholars know, besides it's obvious, is they use intertextuality. Here are some explanations:
Flood Myths Older Than The Bible - Dr. Joshua Bowen
Assyriologist who specialized in Sumerian literary and liturgical compositions
1:25
OT scholars will say Genesis is using a Mesopotamian background and apologist will say
“Well no, there is no literary evidence that shows it borrowed, we cannot show literal evidence”…”it was in the air”….”how do you know it wasn’t true”…….somehow downplaying the Mesopotamian background…
2:57 Dr Josh Bowen - there is no question as far as Biblical scholars and Assyriologists are concerned that the Biblical text is much later than Mesopotamian text and it’s borrowing directly or subtly from Mesopotamia.
References monograph - Subtle Citation, Allusion and Translation in the Hebrew Bible by Z. Zevit. Explains intertexuality and what Hebrew Bible is doing. Not seen as plagiarism in the ancient world.
21:00
Enuma Elish, Babylonian creation myth Genesis 1 borrows from, is recited every year at the New Years festival. Exiled Israelite kings were in captivity in Babylonia. Genesis was written after the Exile.
Genesis demythicizes the Babylonian stories.
23:22
“(Well we don’t know which came first), is nonsense, we do know. The textual tradition for the flood story is much much earlier than the Biblical text. Israel is NOT EVEN A Nation”
Dr Josh and Dr Kipp
3:15
The obvious to scholars, Genesis and other OT, is beholden to ancient Near Eastern myths and other literatures, it’s patently obvious..
13:12 - scholars determine literary connections with very rigorous techniques
13:50 - Obviously clear Bible is doing the same thing
15:50 quote on scholars understanding literary borrowing and textual dependence in Bible
The Real Origins of Ancient Israel
Lester L. Grabbe
Professor of Hebrew Bible and Early Judaism at the University of Hull, England
10:21 Abraham is probably a fictional character, a foundation myth/character developed for theological and philosophical reasons. The Biblical text was not written down until 7/8th century from oral stories. Abraham was an envisioned character who did things but likely is a literary invention. Anachronisms in his story show they were developed later on.
His story was likely developed with the oral history. Hebrew language was developed around the 7/8th century.
21:34 we have enough historical information to know there was no Exodus and early Israel was in Canaan.
33:43 Genesis uses what we would call plagiarism from Mesopotamian literature.
Plagiarism as an idea was not around back then.
38:30 When it comes to the flood story Noah is “almost exact” to the older flood stories.
Hebrew story is probably a borrowing from Mesopotamia. The creation story was influenced by Mesopotamian creation myths.
47:35 Yahweh possibly borrowed from Egyptian text (Yahweh from south)
51:20 original text appears Yahweh was given Israel from the head deity El. Appears authors tried to remove these early beliefs from scripture but missed some references.
Yahweh is also a “son” of El.
1:01:01. Israel was Canaanite, they were people who lived in Canaan but made Canaanites the villain in their stories.
The consensus on the origins of Israel, Joel Baden, one of the best OT scholars, Harvard Grad, does Yale Divinity lectures courses.
Canaanites Were Israelites & There Was No Exodus
Prof. Joel Baden
1:20 DNA shows close relationship between Israelites and Canaanites. Israelites ARE Canaanites who moved to a different place.
6:10 Consensus. Biblical story of Exodus and people coming from Egypt and taking over through battle is not true. With slight variations here and there basically everyone will tell you they gradually came from the coastlands into the highlands. Canaanites moved away to the highlands and slowly became a unified nation after first splitting into tribes.
No Israelites until after 1000 BCE.
18:18 Isaiah 1 is 8th century. Ch 40 is suddenly different. Cyrus shows up, enter end times, Persian influence. Messianic concepts.
The only reason one would not see this is if committed to the idea that it’s not written in separate parts.
Augustus
…
Again, I’m not a Christian arguing for the veracity of the Bible.
My argument is that you would expect a mythos built around a deified human to have been a product of its time and place. People obviously draw from the same cultural wellspring, but we should be careful of what we infer from this especially in terms of direct causation(as opposed to say parallel development).
Insisting on over rigid categories of “dying and rising saviour gods” and positing that these are the only meaningful categories (doesn’t matter that ‘gods’ who appeared close to their purported earthly life times all seem to be real humans because they weren’t dying and rising saviour gods, etc.)
As he says:
I recognize that comparison is no neutral instrument. In the hands of a Celsus, it can be used to de-legitimate a confessional portrait of Jesus—showing how he is just like any other Mediterranean deity. In the hands of Christian apologists, the very same comparative techniques can be shifted toward asserting the final difference of Jesus—exalting him far above contemporary competitors.20 Both kinds of comparison, driven as they are by ideology and religious necessities, are often culpably selective and disappointingly shallow since they tell us more about contemporary “theopolitics” than about historical phenomena.
Dave Watchman
Active Member
You can ask me. I am the living proof that the Jesus of the New Testament, that same Jesus of Nazareth, is the Christ. Jesus is Messiah. He did, and will do what He said He will do, and what the Gospel writers said He did and will do. If it were not true, would He have told us?
There's too much evidence to list here in a forum note. And it is of the utmost sensitive in nature. As the aforementioned: "Author of Life", Jesus is also the litmus test for existence. Whosoever believeth in Him, shall never die.
The evidence is everywhere. It's in the historical writings of historians quoting other historians of the darkness which came over the land on the Day that He was Crucified. The evidence is in the annual Christmas festivities that are celebrated all over the world. The evidence is in the movies we stream, and the videos we watch, where rarely one can be found without an actor screaming His name in vain: "JESUS CHRIST"!
The historicity of Jesus' resurrection is unimpeachable. If the Old Time Jews could have produced a body, there would be no Christianity now. We wouldn't be talking about Him now. No other religious leader ever made the claim that they would be brutally tortured and killed, remain in the heart of the earth for three days and nights, and then come back to life again.
There's just too much ancillary, or circumstantial evidence for what Jesus did. And as you might be aware of, we can be convicted by circumstantial evidence.
I have also made a discovery of specific evidence relating to the stated timing of Jesus' Crucifixion as reported in the Book of Luke, and verified by the Old Time Jews in their Talmudic writings, (400-700AD), where they refer to Him as "Balaam", "Benstada", or a Certain One.
They said He "practiced magic and he led Israel astray.
They said He "was hanged because he practiced sorcery and he enticed Israel to go astray.
And "no one came in his favor to plead so he was hanged the day before Passover.
The Day Before Passover.
Here the evidence can be found in the Passover countdown, based on the lunar conjunction, for April 7, 30AD. The Old Time Jews were using the Babylonian method, and so were a day late. In this case the Moon was the Lord's faithful witness, as He and His Disciples followed conjunction.
Peaceful Sabbath.
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It is more believable that those plagiarism claims are made up.
And I think it is more likely that Mesopotamian literature copied from Jews (Or their ancestors).
The reasons why I think your claims are poor are:
1) earliest found is not necessary earliest ever. Jews have been mistreated many times in history and it is likely their first texts have been destroyed or too well hidden. This is why it is dubious to claim they plagiarized. No good reason to believe so, especially when Bible forms uniform entirety. If they would just copy things from other nations, it most likely would not form coherent book about past, future and rules for good life.
2) If the stories are true, all people are from same beginning, and therefore easily can have similar stories from their ancestors, without anyone plagiarizing.
A scholar who doesn't take these into account, is not credible in my opinion.
Sorry if I was unclear. I didn't mean that a book proves something. I meant, if things went as told in the Bible, the Bible is one evidence for that, because it would explain why we have it. Evidence is not the same as a proof, and evidence doesn't necessary mean that the claim is true, it is only something indicating that it could be so.
In a way Quran also is evidence for something. However, there are some problems with its consistency, and therefore it doesn't sound reliable.
I don't think that is true, if Christianity is what is said in the Bible.
Do you know who wrote the Persian texts?
How do you know Jews didn't have the ideas?
It is possible that Persians got the ideas from Jews. And it is also likely that Persians destroyed all the Jewish texts they could.
And again, Bible tells "Yahweh stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia". That would explain the similarities.
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of Yahweh by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Yahweh stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and [put it] also in writing, saying, Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth has Yahweh, the God of heaven, given me; and he has charged me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever there is among you of all his people, Yahweh his God be with him, and let him go up.
2 Chr. 36:22-23
That argument shows one doesn't know what the Bible tells.
Many may have done that. Why do you think that is something very special?
Do you know that according to the Bible, Jesus is not the God?
joelr
Well-Known Member
I'm going by Litwa's words, I haven't yet read Lesous Deus but I've listened to all of his talks on Mythvision. He says the courses on the Mystery religions and Christianity are not "parallel mania" but the Graeco-Roman religions are a very distinct group and he covers them in great detail.
I never said the only meaningful category was savior deities but that is one part of what these religions developed.
I'm going by Litwa, James Tabor and J.Z. Smith, all experts in Hellenism and it's influence on Christianity.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Then present me with the historical, peer-reviewed work that suggests it's "made up". I understand if one has bought into a story it would seem unbelievable that it's all a mythical story. But that is what the evidence presents. We have many older versions of creation, the flood, Adam and Eve written on tablets, some over 1000 years older than the OT.
Intertextuality (mentioned in 2 of the links I provided) is one method used to show a story is dependent on another.
But provide evidence that anything you say could be true. What is the point of just continually getting evidence and hand waving it away.
It's like I was trying to prove germs were real to you and showing you all types of evidence and you never explain the evidence, you just say "naw, I don't find germs to be real at all...." That isn't a debate. I don't care about your feelings, I'm interested in evidence.
I guess we better start calling up Universities that teach critical-historical studies on Genesis and tell them they are all wrong.
Here are quotes from university textbooks used in courses:
These are all peer-reviewed PhD textbooks/monographs,
John Collins, Introduction to the Hebrew Bible 3rd ed.
“Biblical creation stories draw motifs from Mesopotamia, Much of the language and imagery of the Bible was culture specific and deeply embedded in the traditions of the Near East.
2nd ed. The Old Testament, Davies and Rogerson
“We know from the history of the composition of Gilamesh that ancient writers did adapt and re-use older stories……
It is safer to content ourselves with comparing the motifs and themes of Genesis with those of other ancient Near East texts.
In this way we acknowledge our belief that the biblical writers adapted existing stories, while we confess our ignorance about the form and content of the actual stories that the Biblical writers used.”
The Old Testament, A Historical and Literary Introduction to the Hebrew Scriptures, M. Coogan
“Genesis employs and alludes to mythical concepts and phrasing, but at the same time it also adapts transforms and rejected them”
God in Translation, Smith
“…the Bibles authors fashioned whatever they may have inherited of the Mesopotamian literary tradition on their own terms”
THE OT Text and Content, Matthews, Moyer
“….a great deal of material contained in the primeval epics in Genesis is borrowed and adapted from the ancient cultures of that region.”
The Formation of Genesis 1-11, Carr
“The previous discussion has made clear how this story in Genesis represents a complex juxtaposition of multiple traditions often found separately in the Mesopotamian literary world….”
The Priestly Vision of Genesis, Smith
“….storm God and cosmic enemies passed into Israelite tradition. The biblical God is not only generally similar to Baal as a storm god, but God inherited the names of Baal’s cosmic enemies, with names such as Leviathan, Sea, Death and Tanninim.”
The Jewish ancestors are Canaanite and have a completely different religion. Yahweh worship wasn't around until sometime after 1200 BCE.
Those are facts in archaeology.
No archaeologist or historical scholar who studies this would ever say that because there is no evidence for it.
They are not my claims. They are the vast historical consensus. This is a Yale Divinity Lecture.
Seams and Sources: Genesis 5-11 and the Historical-Critical Method
(10:25) - snake not Satan, no Satan in Hebrew Bible)
10:45 snake in Eden is a standard literary device seen in fables of this era
14:05 acceptance of mortality theme in Eden and Gilamesh story
25:15 Gilgamesh flood story, Sumerian flood story comparisons
26:21 - there are significant contrasts as well between the Mesopotamian flood story and it’s Israelite ADAPTATION. Israelite story is purposely rejecting certain motifs and giving the opposite or an improved version (nicer deity…)
36:20 2 flood stories in Genesis, or contradictions and doublets.
Yahweh/Elohim, rain/cosmic waters flowing,
40:05 two creation stories, very different. Genesis 1 formalized, highly structured
Genesis 2 dramatic. Genesis 1 serious writing style, Genesis 2 uses Hebrew word puns.
Genesis 1/2 use different terms for gender
Genesis 1/2 use different names, description and style for God
Both stories have distinctive styles, vocabulary, themes, placed side by side. Flood stories are interwoven.
Genesis to 2nd Kings entire historical saga is repeated again in Chronicles.
There were no jews. The separate tribes formed and were not unified after 1200 BCE. There were Israelites, Judahites and several others.
The fist book of the Bible was written 600 years after the Israelites first left Canaanite lands. It starts with THE BEGINNING, a creation story, like all other myths.
There were early beliefs not in the Bible, such as Ashera, Yahweh's consort. That is a whole different area to get into. William Dever has done dozens on temple finds in Jerusalem and he has found hundreds of Ashera figurines and many other goddess symbols. Even one that says "Yahweh and his Ashera". Clearly the early Israelites were polytheists.
But there is no "hidden writings" that are 1 thousand years older, they did not emerge until about 1200 BCE. The earliest finds, mentions from other nations and there own writings are very clear. They also didn't "hide" text. They fought like any other nation.
The Persians actually encouraged them to have their own religion and beliefs.
Once again, you are making this up. As usual, you provide no source or scholarship.
Says a complete amateur, actually, a non-historian, non-scholar? Do you know more than every field, quantum mechanics, modern medicine, do you tell every specialist what is "more likely"?
It's not dubious because the evidence is MASSIVE. Listen to the Yale Lecture and tell me where she is wrong and by what scholarship do you know that?
The most ridiculous statement yet.
How many Hebrew Bible scholars have I provided explaining the evidence, which I'm 100% positive you did not even bother to entertain..
The Bible is a mess. Over 200 things Yahweh said would happen that didn't, forgeries, the dead sleep in Sheol, then after the Persians, they resurrect bodily after a final war (all Persian mythology), then in the NT its all Greek Hellenism.
That's not uniform. That is a huge mess of changing myths.
Almost as ridiculous. The wisdom traditions were all very similar among the Near East. Egyptian and Mesopotamian wisdom text, far older, are very similar. One of Proverbs is a verbatim Egyptian work.
There is no reason why they could not copy the flood tale as well as write down the popular wisdom and rules for society.
Of COURSE they wrote down rules, in those days every nation had one source of laws, rules, morals, it was the religion. Every nations had rules from their deity, many given on a mountain on stone. This is what every nation did. Frame wisdom and laws as if a deity was dictating them so people would obey and follow their god.
None of what you are saying makes even a little sense and nothing has even a shred of evidence.
The Book of Proverbs
Borrowing ideas from Greek philosophers who held that reason bound the universe together, the Wisdom tradition taught that God's Wisdom, Word and Spirit were the ground of cosmic unity.[32] Christianity in turn adopted these ideas and applied them to Jesus: the Epistle to the Colossians calls Jesus "...image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation...", while the Gospel of John identifies him with the creative word ("In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God").[33]
The third unit, 22:17–24:22, is headed "bend your ear and hear the words of the wise". A large part of this section is a recasting of a second-millennium BCE Egyptian work, the Instruction of Amenemope, and may have reached the Hebrew author(s) through an Aramaic translation.
The "wisdom" genre was widespread throughout the ancient Near East, and reading Proverbs alongside the examples recovered from Egypt and Mesopotamia reveals the common ground shared by international wisdom.[21] The wisdom literature of Israel may have been developed in the family, the royal court, and houses of learning and instruction;[22] nevertheless, the overwhelming impression is of instruction within the family in small villages.[23]
The stories are myth. Humans evolved from H. heidelburgensis over thousands of years, 200,000 years ago and began migrating into the Middle East 70,000 years ago.
There is a list of physics/geology why a world flood didn't happen, and is impossible.
Even if what you say had a shred of possibility then why are some of the versions using multiple gods, goddesses, different names, always.
Were the stories true they would have one god, Yahweh. But he was invented to be the god of Israel around 1200 BCE. At some point, he was upgraded to supreme deity when Greek ideas were borrowed.
Journal of Biblical Literature
Syncretism in the Religion of Israel
“Archaeological finds have shown that the Iron Age culture in Palestine was syncretic.”
It's not debated, the stories are syncretic re-workings of common mythology.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Every scholar is 100% familiar with the awful apologetics that you are presenting. Most were fundamentalists and also said the same.
Then they learned those ideas don't hold up to evidence, over and over.
You refuse to even accept that there were older nations. But a bigger problem is you don't kn ow what scholars do and don't take into account because you never listened to them. If you did, they talk about these apologetics and explain why they are ridiculous. In the last post one of the lectures mentioned a few in quotations. You skipped it, had you even just read the timestamps you would have seen that.
You just do not care about what is true, you care about making something into the truth. Which is the worst way to know what is true.
Sumerian Literature and the Bible
Prior to the discovery and decipherment of cuneiform script, human beings understood the origins of certain aspects of life in quite a different way. Writing was thought to have originated in Phoenicia, time-telling in China, schools in Greece, and the first love song in the biblical book of The Song of Solomon. The Old Testament of the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world until this was disproven by the German Assyriologist Friedrich Delitzsch (1850-1922 CE) who, building upon the work of men like George Smith, showed that the Sumerians had written stories concerning a fall of man and a great flood before the narratives of Genesis were ever set down. The scholar Paul Kriwaczek writes,
hus it was established that long before Genesis was committed to writing, the ancient Mesopotamians had themselves told the story of a universal flood sent by divine decree to destroy humanity. Soon other texts were discovered that gave similar accounts in several different languages – Sumerian, Old Akkadian, Babylonian – and in several different versions. In the oldest, found on a tablet from the city of Nippur, dated to around 1800 BCE and written in Sumerian, Noah's role is taken by a King of Shuruppak called Ziudsura or Ziusudra, meaning `he Saw Life”, because he was awarded immortality by the gods. In another, written in the 1600s BCE in the Akkadian language, the protagonist is called Atrahasis, meaning `Extremely Wise'. (69)
Conclusion
The Sumerians, therefore, can also be credited with the earliest form of one of the most potent myths of western civilization: The Great Flood. In attempting to prove the historical truth of the Bible, the archaeologists and scholars of the 19th century CE revealed that the biblical narratives held as absolute divine truths were later interpretations of the literature of the Sumerians.
As noted, however, it is not simply in the field of religious studies that the discovery of Sumer changed the way people understand the world in the present. In their many inventions and innovations, the Sumerians lay the groundwork for so many advancements in the daily lives of human beings that, today, it is impossible to imagine life without these things. Somehow, the people of Sumer were able to imagine things which had never existed on earth before and, in expressing their imaginations, invented the future.
Bibliography
- Bertman, S. Handbook to Life in Ancient Mesopotamia. Oxford University Press, 2003.
- Black, J. et. al. The Literature of Ancient Sumer. Oxford University Press, 2006.
- Bottéro, J. Everyday Life in Ancient Mesopotamia. Johns Hopkins University Press, 2001.
- Kramer, S. N. The Sumerians: Their History, Culture, and Character. University of Chicago Press, 1971.
- Kramer, S.N. History Begins at Sumer. University of Pennsylvania Press, 1988.
- Kriwaczek, P. Babylon:Mesopotamia and the Birth of Civilization. Thomas Dunne Books, 2010.
- Leick, G. The A to Z of Mesopotamia. Scarecrow Press, 2010.
- Van De Mieroop, M. A History of the Ancient Near East ca. 3000 - 323 BC, 2nd Edition. Blackwell Publishing, 2003.
- Von Soden, W. The Ancient Orient. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1994.
- Wise Bauer, S. The History of the Ancient World. W. W. Norton & Company, 2007.
Joshua J. Mark is co-founder and Content Director of World History Encyclopedia.
From a Biblical scholar:
"Many stories in the ancient world have their origins in other stories and were borrowed and modified from other or earlier peoples. For instance, many of the stories now preserved in the Bible are **modified** versions of stories that existed in the cultures and traditions of Israel’s **older** contemporaries. Stories about the creation of the universe, a cataclysmic universal flood, digging wells as land markers, the naming of important cultic sites, gods giving laws to their people, and even stories about gods decreeing the possession of land to their people were all part of the cultural and literary matrix of the ancient Near East. Biblical scribes freely **adopted and modified** these stories as a means to express their own identity, origins, and customs."
"Stories from the Bible" by Dr Steven DiMattei, from his website "Biblical Contradictions"
joelr
Well-Known Member
That doesn't move you forward at all. In fact it's proof that it's a mythology because there are over 10,000 other religions with similar claims and no evidence. So it's normal to have a fictive story as a religion for every nation in those times.
Next we see it's incredibly syncretic and uses theology from nations that occupied it, only after they have been there for a few centuries we see they begin to use the myths for their stories.
So you are exactly where you started, with a folk tale claim.
I don't care what you think, provide evidence.
James Tabor, on Hellenistic changes to the NT include:
Hellenistic Greek view of cosmology
Material world/body is a prison of the soul
Humans are immortal souls, fallen into the darkness of the lower world
Death sets the soul free
No human history, just a cycle of birth, death, rebirth
Immortality is inherent for all humans
Salvation is escape to Heaven, the true home of the immortal soul
Humans are fallen and misplaced
Death is a stripping of the body so the soul can be free
Death is a liberating friend to be welcomed
Asceticism is the moral idea for the soul
That isn't in the OT. Clear borrowing of Greek theology. Provide evidence, please stop debating with denial only.
Yes
"It is only possible therefore to hazard a reasoned conjecture that Zoroaster lived some time between 1 700 and 1 500 B.C. In the Gathas he refers to himself as a 'zaotar', that is, a fully • qualified priest; and he is the only founder of a world religion who was both priest and prophet.
Although Western scholars distinguish the post-Gathic texts collectively as the 'Younger A vesta', some of them contain matter which is very old. This is particularly true of certain of the yashts, hymns addressed to individual divinities. V
The language of the Gathas is archaic, and close to that of the Rigveda (whose composition has been assigned to about 1 700 B. c. onwards); and the picture of the world to be gained from them is correspon,dingly ancient, that of a Stone Age society. Some allowance may have to be made for literary conservatism; and it is also possible that the 'Avestan' people (as Zoroaster's own tribe is called for want of a better name) were poor or isolated, and so not rapidly influenced by the developments of the Bronze Age. It is only possible therefore to hazard a reasoned conjecture that Zoroaster lived some time between 1 700 and 1 500 B.C"
Uh, BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT IN THE BIBLE AT ALL????????????????? THEN, THEY WERE.
No, the Persians did not "destroy"Jewish text, the Jewish leaders write about the Persians and Cyrus was well liked and allowed them religious freedom. Despite this, and it says as much in th eBible, you still want to re-write history to make your beliefs somehow still work.
The Persians had these myths from 1700 BCE. The Hebrews did not, we know this because it's not in th eBible. Nothing like it is in the Bible. The dead sleep in Sheol.
Suddenly, all the Persian myths are part of Christianity. It's so obvious.
Yes Cyrus is mentioned in Mary Boyce's work on the Persian religion:
1st Persian influence on Judaism
Cyrus' actions were, moreover, those of a loyal Mazda-worshipper, in that he sought to govern his vast new empire justly and well, in accordance with asha. He made no attempt, however, to impose the Iranian religion on his alien subjects - indeed it would have been wholly impractical to attempt it, in view of their numbers, and the antiquity of their own faiths - but rather encouraged them to live orderly and devout lives according to their own tenets. Among the many anarya who experienced his statesmanlike kindness were the Jews, whom he permitted to return from exile in Babylon and to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. This was only one of many liberal acts recorded of Cyrus, but it was of particular moment for the religious history of mankind; for the Jews entertained warm feelings thereafter for the Persians, and
this made them the more receptive to Zoroastrian influences. Cyrus • himself is hailed by 'Second Isaiah' (a nameless prophet of the Exilic period) as a messiah, that is, one who acted in Yahweh's name and with his authority. 'Behold my servant whom I uphold' (Yahweh himself is represented as saying). '(Cyrus) will bring forth justice to the nations. . . . He will not fail . . . till he has established justice in the earth' (Isaiah 42. I, 4). The same prophet celebrates Yahweh for the first time in Jewish literature as Creator, as Ahura Mazda had been celebrated by Zoroaster: 'I, Yahweh, who created all things ... I made the earth, and created man on it .... Let the skies rain down justice ... I, Yahweh, have created it' (Isaiah 44.24, 45. 8, 12). The parallels with Zoroastrian doctrine and scripture are so striking that these verses have been taken to represent the first imprint of that influence which Zoroastrianism was to exert so powerfully on postExilic Judaism.
"According to the Bible, salvation is a gift from God that delivers people from danger, destruction, or sin, and gives them eternal life"
From a work on Hellenism and Christianity:
"Christian and Hellenistic ideas of redemption cannot be sharply separated.
The deity's resurrection from the dead gives to the initiates, who see their own destiny prefigured in his adventures, hope of a life after death."
HELLENISTIC IDEAS OF SALVATION IN THE LIGHT OF ANCIENT ANTHROPOLOGY
PAUL WENDLAND
University of Gattingen, Germany
I didn't say the Eucharist alone was special, it's one element. There was a Jewish communial meal before Christianity.
here we see a comparison of Jewish and Greek ideas that were blended into the NT
Pagan /Jewish element, Judea-Pagan Syncretism
Pagan - Savior son of God
Jewish - Messianic resurrection cult
Pagan - Undergoes ordeal by which he obtains victory over death
Jewish - based on blood atonement theology (substitutionary sacrifice)
Pagan - which he shares with those initiated into his cult for individual salvation
Jewish - adapting Passover and Yom Kippur
Pagan - in a universal brotherhood
Jewish - first by circumsision, then without
Pagan - through a baptismal invitation and communal meal
Jewish - through a baptismal invitation and communal meal
Yes, part of the Greek religions is the savior is a son/daughter of the supreme god.
All Mystery religions have personal savior deities
- All saviors
- all son/daughter, never the supreme God (including Mithriasm)
- all undergo a passion (struggle) patheon
- all obtain victory over death which they share with followers
- all have stories set on earth
- none actually existed
- Is Jesus the exception and based on a real Jewish teacher or is it all made up?
joelr
Well-Known Member
Actually we have the original of the Quran, there are also "witnesses" and the Bible is a complete mess. Yahweh is a Near Eastern Warrior, then it's all Persian stuff then it's all Greek stuff mixed with Persian. But please, tell me what is inconsistent about the Quran.
If you don't answer I'm just going to re-ask only that one question until you do.
I believe you just made that up or are repeating apologetics without knowing what it means. Every religions says the other books are inconsistent or this or that. Meanwhile all of you are buying claims without evidence and don't fact check.
So please tell me why your book, with changing myths, obvious borrowing, heaven is Yahweh's home, then it's the afterlife for everyone.
Even the 4 Gospels are wildly inconsistent. Bart Ehrman has an entire book on those issues. Again you are just repeating apologetics without understanding. You are buying things people tell you without checking to see if it holds up.
That isn't reliable.
The list from J.Z.Smith showing the changes Hellenism made to religions they occupied describe the EXACT changes seen in the NT.
You cannot get clearer than that. It's so clearly influenced by these changes, it describes the NT exactly. NONE of that is seen in the OT.
Super inconsistent.
it's all right there, summary of his Britannica article, all about personal salvation and getting to the afterlife.
-the seasonal drama was homologized to a soteriology (salvation concept) concerning the destiny, fortune, and salvation of the individual after death.
-his led to a change from concern for a religion of national prosperity to one for individual salvation, from focus on a particular ethnic group to concern for every human. The prophet or saviour replaced the priest and king as the chief religious figure.
-his process was carried further through the identification of the experiences of the soul that was to be saved with the vicissitudes of a divine but fallen soul, which had to be redeemed by cultic activity and divine intervention. This view is illustrated in the concept of the paradoxical figure of the saved saviour, salvator salvandus.
-Other deities, who had previously been associated with national destiny (e.g., Zeus, Yahweh, and Isis), were raised to the status of transcendent, supreme
-The temples and cult institutions of the various Hellenistic religions were repositories of the knowledge and techniques necessary for salvation and were the agents of the public worship of a particular deity. In addition, they served an important sociological role. In the new, cosmopolitan ideology that followed Alexander’s conquests, the old nationalistic and ethnic boundaries had broken down and the problem of religious and social identity had become acute.
-Most of these groups had regular meetings for a communal meal that served the dual role of sacramental participation (referring to the use of material elements believed to convey spiritual benefits among the members and with their deity)
-Hellenistic philosophy (Stoicism, Cynicism, Neo-Aristotelianism, Neo-Pythagoreanism, and Neoplatonism) provided key formulations for Jewish, Christian, and Muslim philosophy, theology, and mysticism through the 18th century
- The basic forms of worship of both the Jewish and Christian communities were heavily influenced in their formative period by Hellenistic practices, and this remains fundamentally unchanged to the present time. Finally, the central religious literature of both traditions—the Jewish Talmud (an authoritative compendium of law, lore, and interpretation), the New Testament, and the later patristic literature of the early Church Fathers—are characteristic Hellenistic documents both in form and content.
-Other traditions even more radically reinterpreted the ancient figures. The cosmic or seasonal drama was interiorized to refer to the divine soul within man that must be liberated.
-Each persisted in its native land with little perceptible change save for its becoming linked to nationalistic or messianic movements (centring on a deliverer figure)
-and apocalyptic traditions (referring to a belief in the dramatic intervention of a god in human and natural events)
- Particularly noticeable was the success of a variety of prophets, magicians, and healers—e.g., John the Baptist, Jesus, Simon Magus, Apollonius of Tyana, Alexander the Paphlagonian, and the cult of the healer Asclepius—whose preaching corresponded to the activities of various Greek and Roman philosophic missionaries
We have the blueprint for turning Judaism into Christianity right there.
You cannot get out of that, it's too obvious.
Now why is the Quran inconsistent?
Are Thor and Zeus real now? You didn't answer.
Why did you say th eQuran says the same thing as the Bible, and now say it's inconsistent, and also why didn't you respond to the fact that you were wrong about the Quran saying what the Bible says?
It says Christians and Jews are not telling the truth and worship a false messiah. So you were wrong. Why did you think that?
Would you make a religion based purely on fictive story? If no, why assume others would do so? And especially, why would other people follow a fiction based religion?
It seems to me that the person doesn't even know what is said in the Bible. Can you give one example comparing Biblical scripture and Hellenistic scripture? I think it would be best to start from that.
I think that is funny, so you think brotherhood was not possible for Jews, without outside influence?
Maybe for those who don't want to understand.
Sorry, I don't think it has Persian and Greek stuff.
It says believe what Jesus says, and at the same time apparently that don't really believe what he said.
Changing myths?
I think it is possible that beings that were called Zeus and Thor existed. I don't think they should be kept as God, but it may well be that people witnessed those.
I think it is true that many Christians worship a false Messiah, that is not Biblical.
joelr
Well-Known Member
This question is beyond imaginable that it could be asked. Even taking aside Christianity we are left with about five thousand years of humans following fictive religions. Osirus, Zeus, Romulus, all the Egyptian gods, the Asian deities, all fiction. The Greel pantheon, the Roman pantheon?
Islam, which you don't believe in, has billions of members.
Now put Christianity back in. You don't believe in Mormonism, millions of Christians do. Same with Jehova's Witness.
You would assume others would because that is the vast majority of gods people followed.
And most religions are not based on literal fiction, they are based on syncretism. The Old Testament didn't start out with Judaism? It started with re-writing some older stories, then a national foundation myth, Exodus, to give a sense of identity. Then the laws were added, which is similar to other laws from other nations.
You don't believe in any Hindu gods yet there are billions of followers. Obviously someone wrote a story about Krishna visiting Prince Arjuna and giving to him a whole bunch of philosophy that was known by intellectuals in that culture. Instead of just writing a "wisdom"book someone framed it as if Krishna gave this wisdom. This was done in all nations with over 10,000 gods since the beginning of known history.
This is staggeringly bizarre that you could ask this question?
I never understood apologists who ask these types of questions? They are surrounded by billions of people in other religions they consider fiction and all throughout history we have made up pantheons, Greek, Egyptian, Roman, Asian, yet somehow they think it's a good point to say "why would people follow a religion if it was fiction?"
Even today people follow cults, one in AU has a man saying he's Jesus returned. With a big following. Sai Baba had millions of followers in the 1900's who swore he was some type of supernatural being. It's a question that answers itself when you step out of the bubble.
James Tabor does it in every video.
In this video he goes over many Bible verses
How Christian Apologists Unintentionally DESTROY the Gospels
in this he compares Greek ideas to Bible ideas
Death & Afterlife: Do Christians Follow Plato rather than Jesus or Paul?
Dr James Tabor
David Litwa teaches courses on the Greek religions and comparisons to Christianity
He is familiar with the original Greek versions of the Gospels, as id Dr Tabor. It's ridiculous to even ask "have they read the Bible" and they teach comparative courses? They know the Greek Gospels inside and out. The more details you want the most details you can get in their books. You haven't watched any source material I have given, because you would have known that. But why are you even asking for more information when you have skipped all other information I have provided?
Are you trying to be wrong every single time on purpose? The Jews were united and wanted salvation FOR ISRAEL.
The new idea that the Greek religions brought was cosmopolitanism. A UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD.
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joelr
Well-Known Member
As I explained, it's Mesopotamian, Persian then Greek. Yahweh was seen on his throne, has descriptions of all his bodyparts, was a typical Near Eastern warrior deity.
Then changed to Persian ideas, then changed to Greek ideas.
Just saying "I understand it", says nothing at all. Souls sleep in Sheol. Then after the Greeks have it, heaven is for the saved souls of members getting personal salvation from a savior deity.
Total mess of ideas.
I have already demonstrated that. Show me a historical scholar who disagrees and why. What you think has no bearing on the entire field of critical-historical studies on the Bible. You need evidence.
I could have the same conversation with a Muslim or Mormon and they would do the same, "sorry, I think my book is the true one".
Your (as if I own them) scholars don't know anything"......
Don't care. Provide evidence.
Yes the Quran has many inconsistencies like the Bible.
Yes, I 've given you the list of changes that the Persian period brought and they were all from the Persian religion. I've given you details of the changes Hellenism brought. It even happened to other religions first, before Christianity. The it happened to Judaism.
There is basically no doubt.
Doctrines taken from Persia into Judiasm.
fundamental doctrines became disseminated throughout the region, from Egypt to the Black Sea: namely that there is a supreme God who is the Creator; that an evil power exists which is opposed to him, and not under his control; that he has emanated many lesser divinities to help combat this power; that he has created this world for a purpose, and that in its present state it will have an end; that this end will be heralded by the coming of a cosmic Saviour, who will help to bring it about; that meantime heaven and hell exist, with an individual judgment to decide the fate of each soul at death; that at the end of time there will be a resurrection of the dead and a Last Judgment, with annihilation of the wicked; and that thereafter the kingdom of God will come upon earth, and the righteous will enter into it as into a garden (a Persian word for which is 'paradise'), and be happy there in the presence of God for ever, immortal themselves in body as well as soul. These doctrines all came to be adopted by various Jewish schools in the post-Exilic period, for the Jews were one of the peoples, it seems, most open to Zoroastrian influences - a tiny minority, holding staunchly to their own beliefs, but evidently admiring their Persian benefactors, and finding congenial elements in their faith. Worship of the one supreme God, and belief in the coming of a Messiah or Saviour, together with adherence to a way of life which combined moral and spiritual aspirations with a strict code of behaviour (including purity laws) were all matters in which Judaism and Zoroastrianism were in harmony; and it was this harmony, it seems, reinforced by the respect of a subject people for a great protective power, which allowed Zoroastrian doctrines to exert their influence. The extent of this influence is best attested, however, by Jewish writings of the Parthian period, when Christianity and the Gnostic faiths, as well as northern Buddhism, all likewise bore witness to the profound effect: which Zoroaster's teachings had had throughout the lands of the Achaernenian empire.
Mary Boyce
Super, more supernatural speculation when the rational , obvious answer is these are also myths.
Biblical or not, it's made up mythology. Sometimes based on real humans but given super-powers.
joelr
Well-Known Member
The Persian, original Revelation story that started the idea
Revelations
but Zoroaster taught that the blessed must wait for this culmination till Frashegird and the 'future body' (Pahlavi 'tan i pasen'), when the earth will give up the bones of the dead (Y 30.7). This general resurrection will be followed by the Last Judgment, which will divide all the righteous from the wicked, both those who have lived until that time and those who have been judged already. Then Airyaman, Yazata of friendship and healing, together with Atar, Fire, will melt all the metal in the mountains, and this will flow in a glowing river over the earth. All mankind must pass through this river, and, as it is said in a Pahlavi text, 'for him who is righteous it will seem like warm milk, and for him who is wicked, it will seem as if he is walking in the • flesh through molten metal' (GBd XXXIV. r 8-r 9). In this great apocalyptic vision Zoroaster perhaps fused, unconsciously, tales of volcanic eruptions and streams of burning lava with his own experience of Iranian ordeals by molten metal; and according to his stern original teaching, strict justice will prevail then, as at each individual j udgment on earth by a fiery ordeal. So at this last ordeal of all the wicked will suffer a second death, and will perish off the face of the earth. The Daevas and legions of darkness will already have been annihilated in a last great battle with the Yazatas; and the river of metal will flow down into hell, slaying Angra Mainyu and burning up the last vestige of wickedness in the universe.
Ahura Mazda and the six Amesha Spentas will then solemnize a lt, spiritual yasna, offering up the last sacrifice (after which death wW be no more), and making a preparation of the mystical 'white haoma', which will confer immortality on the resurrected bodies of all the blessed, who will partake of it. Thereafter men will beome like the Immortals themselves, of one thought, word and deed, unaging, free from sickness, without corruption, forever joyful in the kingdom of God upon earth. For it is in this familiar and beloved world, restored to its original perfection, that, according to Zoroaster, eternity will be passed in bliss, and not in a remote insubstantial Paradise. So the time of Separation is a renewal of the time of Creation, except that no return is prophesied to the original uniqueness of living things. Mountain and valley will give place once more to level plain; but whereas in the beginning there was one plant, one animal, one man, the rich variety and number that have since issued from these will remain forever. Similarly the many divinities who were brought into being by Ahura Mazda will continue to have their separate existences. There is no prophecy of their re-absorption into the Godhead. As a Pahlavi text puts it, after Frashegird 'Ohrmaid and the Amahraspands and all Yazads and men will be together. .. ; every place will resemble a garden in spring, in which
there are all kinds of trees and flowers ... and it will be entirely the creation of Ohrrnazd' (Pahl.Riv.Dd. XLVIII, 99, lOO, l07).
And more evidence.
Messianism
Messianism is the belief in the advent of a messiah who acts as the savior of a group of people. Messianism originated as a Zoroastrian religious belief and followed to Abrahamic religions,[3] but other religions also have messianism-related concepts. Religions with a messiah concept include Judaism (Mashiach), Christianity (Christ), Islam (Isa Masih), Druze faith (Jesus and Hamza ibn Ali),[4][5] Zoroastrianism (Saoshyant), Buddhism (Maitreya), Taoism (Li Hong), and Bábism (He whom God shall make manifest).
In Judaism, the messiah will be a future Jewish king from the line of David and redeemer of the Jewish people and humanity.[1][6] In Christianity, Jesus is the messiah,[note 1] the savior, the redeemer, and God.[1][3] In Islam, Jesus was a prophet and the messiah of the Jewish people who will return in the end times.[3]
- 3. Greisiger, Lutz (2015). "Apocalypticism, Millenarianism, and Messianism". In Blidstein, Moshe; Silverstein, Adam J.; Stroumsa, Guy G. (eds.). The Oxford Handbook of the Abrahamic Religions. Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press. pp. 272–294. doi:10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199697762.013.14. ISBN 978-0-19-969776-2. LCCN 2014960132. S2CID 170614787.
Apocalypticism is the religious belief that the end of the world is imminent, even within one's own lifetime.
Religious views and movements often focus on cryptic revelations about a sudden, dramatic, and cataclysmic intervention of God in history; the judgment of humanity; the salvation of the faithful elect; and the eventual rule of the elect with God in a renewed heaven and earth. Arising initially in Zoroastrianism, apocalypticism was developed more fully in Judaic, Christian, and Islamic eschatological speculation.
Greisiger, Lutz (2015). "Apocalypticism, Millenarianism, and Messianism". In Blidstein, Moshe; Silverstein, Adam J.; Stroumsa, Guy G. (eds.). The Oxford Handbook of the Abrahamic Religions.
Lietaert Peerbolte, Bert Jan (2013). "How Antichrist Defeated Death: The Development of Christian Apocalyptic Eschatology in the Early Church"
Crossley, James (September 2021). "The Apocalypse and Political Discourse in an Age of COVID". Journal for the Study of the New Testament.
"Apocalypticism – theology". Encyclopedia Britannica.
Strauss, Mark (2009-11-12). "Ten Notable Apocalypses That (Obviously) Didn't Happen"