GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
I don't see any difference in that.
That is an interesting view to reconcile life, death, afterlife, and immortality as the same, but I suppose this is the Christian view?
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I don't see any difference in that.
That is secular reasoning because Bible says there is slavery therefore there is slavery. I think one has to look for other evidence. Incidentally, the Bible does not talk about slavery at all, Bible only says that there works load increased that could very much be the work load of wage workers. The whole idea of slavery is biblical innovation to hypnotise the believers.Interesting, to me the story in the Bible is one evidence for it.
Can you quote me verses from the Tanakh that mention hell, or any instance of God and Satan duking it out?They borrowed hell, God vs the devil and many other things. Some shows up in the OT and much of it is part of the NT.
Oh no. For one thing, there was more than one god in Persia. Zoroastrianism is a dualistic religion where opposing forces of good and evil are engaged in a cosmic battle (not true in Judaism, where God rules all). In Zorastrianism, you have the good god, Ahura Mazda, battling against the evil god, Angra Mainyu (or Ahriman).They also saw that the Persian god was the supreme god.
Nor did the Jews accept any of the Greek gods. In fact, we revolted against the Greeks because they were trying to force us to worship their gods.Another concept that was borrowed. This was a common practice in Hellenism as well, upgrading local national deities to supreme deities.
Nope Deuteronomy 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death because of sons, nor shall sons be put to death because of fathers; each man shall be put to death for his own transgression." Deuteronomy was compiled in the 7th century BCE, but the texts that are spliced together are far older.The first Hebrew prophet to speak unequivocally in terms of individual moral responsibility was Ezekiel, a prophet of the Babylonian exile. Up until that time Hebrew ethics had been guided by the idea of the corporate personality – that, e.g., the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons (Ex. 20:1-2).
Really? You think Hezekiah was not a historical person? Despite the Assyrian King recording Hezekiah fortifying Jerusalem and withstanding his siege? Despite the Taylor Prism mentioning things Hezekiah did that gel with the Bible? Despite archaeologists finding Hezekiah's Tunnel, the Broad Wall, and his seal?It's all made up.
Yeap. Almost all the science fiction I've watched are simply modern morality plays, with very few exceptions. I think Hollywood has changed modern morality more than any other factor.I think so, a popular way to learn morals and ethics is through the fictional hero's journeys. People are influenced more than they realize by modern fiction.
Explain to me where in this verse it says that humans are immortal.I disagree with that. There is for example this:
Yahweh God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, lest he put forth his hand, and also take of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever..."
Gen. 3:22
I'm fine that the NT is meaningful to you. It's just that it carries no weight with me or my fellow Jews.Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna [also translated hell].
Matt. 10:28
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
Romans 6:23
…Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev. 20:12-15
Nowadays almost anything can be called a Christian view. I personally try to remain loyal to what Jesus said. And he said:That is an interesting view to reconcile life, death, afterlife, and immortality as the same, but I suppose this is the Christian view?
Difficult to believe that, especially if one reads the rules for slavery....The whole idea of slavery is biblical innovation...
I don't say it means humans are immortal, only that it shows the idea of living forever.Explain to me where in this verse it says that humans are immortal.
If you are speaking of "Christians" concepts, shouldn't you know to what they are based on? If you don't know, perhaps it would be best to not make any claims of them.I'm fine that the NT is meaningful to you. It's just that it carries no weight with me or my fellow Jews.
No he wasn’t. He might well have been a slave.
He was Hadrian’s catemite.
He died by drowning in the Nile (or perhaps was murdered or perhaps sacrificed himself) during the festival of Osiris and was deified by Hadrian.
He came to him in a dream which told of his resurrection.
His cult combined him with Osiris, he was raised to heaven, was associated with resurrection and healing, etc. he performed miracles.
Christians didn’t like the similarities to Jesus, many wrote against his cult and it was eventually banned by Theodosius.
Celsus thought he was a demon, which explained his ability to work miracles/magic.
It wasn't close to his like? Paul wrote 20 years later, 40 various Gospels from all types of different versions of the stories were around for an entire century. The beginning of the 2nd century we find the Bishop mentioning Gospels his sect wants to be canon. The modern canon came together during the 2nd century. That is 150 years later.All of these gods exist in mythic time or the long past.
Antinous acquired characteristics of Osiris, and like all gods whose cults emerged close to their purported lives, he actually existed.
Jesus wouldn’t be unique in being a dying and rising saviour who lived, he would be unique in being deified close to his purported life while being a whole cloth myth.
Yes each nation makes up all kinds of things. They also don't just say one thing. There are many passages that suggest suffering.It is interesting that in Bible, hell is a place where soul and body are destroyed. Seems different than the common ideas of it.
Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna [hell].
Matt. 10:28
I would assume this is talking about before the resurrection. Is pointless nit-picking the only point you have?If we believe what is said in the Bible, Jesus has not said his last words, because he still lives.
John tells there is only one true God who is greater than Jesus.
How can you believe, who receive glory from one another, and you don't seek the glory that comes from the only God?
John 5:44
This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3
Jesus said to her, "Don't touch me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, 'I am ascend-ing to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
John 20:17
...the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28
Being one with God does not mean person is God. Otherwise also disciples of Jesus would be Gods, because they are also one with God.
I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
John 17:11
that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may be-lieve that you sent me.
John 17:21
It is very sad when people think they know how things are, when they have one line from the Bible.
You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Matt. 22:29
I don't believe John is really the last, because it has more profound understanding and knowledge of what Jesus said.
If one thinks so, i think he has not understood the scriptures.
It is already here.
Being asked by the Pharisees when God’s Kingdom would come, he answered them, “God’s Kingdom doesn’t come with observation; neither will they say, ‘Look, here!’ or, ‘Look, there!’ for behold, God’s Kingdom is within you.”
Luke 17:20-21
I don't believe John is really the last, because it has more profound understanding and knowledge of what Jesus said.
Not more profound, more made up. What you believe doesn't equal truth.
Can you quote me verses from the Tanakh that mention hell, or any instance of God and Satan duking it out?
Oh yes. It was monotheism.Oh no. For one thing, there was more than one god in Persia. Zoroastrianism is a dualistic religion where opposing forces of good and evil are engaged in a cosmic battle (not true in Judaism, where God rules all). In Zorastrianism, you have the good god, Ahura Mazda, battling against the evil god, Angra Mainyu (or Ahriman).
All the Jewish texts from that era refer to YHWH, not either of the two gods above.
Well people who stayed Jewish didn't accept Hellenism. There was a Jewish Hellenism but it died out. Christianity is a Jewish version of the Hellenistic savior demigod cult. Each nation has a new savior.Nor did the Jews accept any of the Greek gods. In fact, we revolted against the Greeks because they were trying to force us to worship their gods.
Nope Deuteronomy 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death because of sons, nor shall sons be put to death because of fathers; each man shall be put to death for his own transgression." Deuteronomy was compiled in the 7th century BCE, but the texts that are spliced together are far older.
No scholars think he was real, there is evidence as you say. Fransesca Stavrakopolou mentions him and the evidence in a new interview. It's Moses and Abraham and the Patriarchs that are definitely fiction. She says "definitely not real"Really? You think Hezekiah was not a historical person? Despite the Assyrian King recording Hezekiah fortifying Jerusalem and withstanding his siege? Despite the Taylor Prism mentioning things Hezekiah did that gel with the Bible? Despite archaeologists finding Hezekiah's Tunnel, the Broad Wall, and his seal?
Fiction also reflects current ideas of morality, just as ancient myths did back then.Yeap. Almost all the science fiction I've watched are simply modern morality plays, with very few exceptions. I think Hollywood has changed modern morality more than any other factor.
I meant lover of a Roman Emperor. This was an Egyptian and Roman cult. Not one of the Hellenistic mystery religions.
But either way, a mystery cult being based on an actual teacher is still a myth. Just like the stories of magic and such are made up stories, same with all of them. This was a common practice.
It wasn't close to his like? Paul wrote 20 years later, 40 various Gospels from all types of different versions of the stories were around for an entire century.
David Litwa has courses on this on his site.
There can be suffering, at the moment one is destroyed. It does not mean that the people are consciously suffering eternally.Yes each nation makes up all kinds of things. They also don't just say one thing. There are many passages that suggest suffering.
Matthew 8:12
While the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Mark 9:48
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
How could it be that God does not know them? I don't think your claims are supported with anything substantial....The early Hebrew concept is that all of us are made from the dust and all of us return to the dust. There is a shadowy existence in Sheol, but the beings there are so insignificant that Yahweh does not know them. ...
Eden is the place where the garden is. And the garden can be called the paradise. The word paradise, by what I know, means walled garden. It does not matter, if the same word is not used, when they mean the same....“Eden” not “Paradise” is mentioned in Genesis,...
I can see that. No wonder if you don't understand.I don't care what a fictional story tells us.
Yes, it tells we should believe Jesus.Do you care what the Quran "tells us"?
They don't seem to tell anything meaningful.Or the Hindu scriptures or the Greek mystery religions?
It is a matter of belief. However, that life and Bible exists, is for me good evidence for God.Please demonstrate a God exists.
I don't think it looks like that. But, obviously all history is a matter of belief.Then demonstrate the historicity of John. He also looks to have used Mark and added much more supernatural elements to the character.
Why would anyone made up such a story, if it is not true?Of all the Gospels John is the most likely to be completely made up mythology.
Does it not bother you to make baseless claims?The situation only gets worse from there, since the anonymous author of Matthew then borrows ...
I don't think there is a contradiction. Why do you think so?Luke 17:20-21: Jesus tells the Pharisees that the kingdom of God is "among you" and cannot be observed. Some say that this means the kingdom of God is wherever and whenever God meets the faithful, and that Jesus himself embodies the kingdom.
- Psalm 103:19: This verse states that "The LORD has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all".
- Daniel 4:3: King Nebuchadnezzar says that God's kingdom is "eternal".
- Romans 13:1: This verse states that God has established every authority that exists.
- Matthew 3:2: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
- Matthew 4:17: "From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
Ok, if we speak what were the last recorded words of Jesus, before his death, then it is simple, the last words were:I would assume this is talking about before the resurrection. Is pointless nit-picking the only point you have?
Paul doesn't say no signs were given, he says:Mark had clearly written when no miracles had yet been imagined for Jesus, as Paul says, no signs were given to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ (1 Cor. 1.22-24).
So, if I understand correctly, people made up the story of resurrected Jesus? Why? Why would they make such s story and become persecuted and likely killed?Matthew had already expanded and corrected Mark by having Jesus say instead that an evil and adulterous generation seeks i sign and therefore "no sign shall be given except the sign of Jonah" meaning the resurrection of Jesus. Matthew thus slightly retreats from Mark by allowing one sign - and accordingly, unlike Mark, Matthew actually narrates a resurrected Jesus and makes sure that in his story the Jews "know" about it. This was not the case before. Matthew is inventing new evidence. The same point was then reinforced by Luke's repetition of Matthew's expanded revision of Mark and by his invention of the parable of Lazurus and the public announcements to the Jews.
"John is a free redaction of the previous Gospels. Some maintain he is independent of them, but there is no evidence of that. To the contrary, the evidence is abundant that John knew all previous Gospels and used them as sources.
For example Mark. 6:5 tells Jesus did miracles, healed people. Is that not a sign?This is essentially what Matthew and Luke had Jesus say, "correcting" Mark (who did not allow even for the resurrection to be a sign, for Mark it only accomplishes Jesus defeat of death); but John conspicuously does not say this will be th eonly sign. To the contrary, he immediately tells us, "having seen the signs he did, many believed in his name" and a "great multitude" followed him because the signs he did, and when people see the signs he did they declare him a true prophet and we're told "no one can do these signs that you do unless God be with him" and Jesus says, "you will in no way believe unless you see signs and wonders
" and although this is a rebuke, he nevertheless dutifully performs a miracle to provide them one Jn 4.48-54.
Yes so was Zeus, that was Classical Greek religion. Not Hellenism.He was Greek and the cult was popular in Greece.
"You said Osiris was a Hellenised deity and . was grafted onto him with the standard resurrection, raised to heaven, healing and miracle working salvation deity type tropes too.
Christians like Origen attacked the cult for having commonalities with Christianity.
We can clearly see that this type of deity can be based in a real person, so your claims otherwise are false.
Of course the stories based on the human Jesus are mythologised and conform to common tropes.
Same with the life of Muhammad. Most of his biography is likely exegetical in nature from centuries after his life.
This is what we expect even if he was a human.
No Paul doesn't say he knew any Jesus. He said he had a revelation 20 years later with a spirit Jesus.Again close to his purported life and written by those whose lives overlapped with his.
" Antinous was almost instantly revered as a dying-and-reviving god,"A feature only found in deified humans, not the purely mythical gods.
So what? We have evidence about the founder of Bahai, the prophet, all types, even details about his execution.And also written down far closer to his life than the sirah of Muhammad was written down and we know he existed.
Yes and even despite those warnings, which he follows, he still can demonstrate how the Mystery religions were definitely an influence on Christianity.He also warns people against overfitting causal narratives that support ones prejudices and preferences.
His view is while it is easy to draw commonalities, especially when looking through vast distances of geography and time, but the secondary assumptions of cause and meaning may well be the creation of the historian.
Yes so was Zeus, that was Classical Greek religion. Not Hellenism.He was Greek and the cult was popular in Greece.
"You said Osiris was a Hellenised deity and . was grafted onto him with the standard resurrection, raised to heaven, healing and miracle working salvation deity type tropes too.
Christians like Origen attacked the cult for having commonalities with Christianity.
We can clearly see that this type of deity can be based in a real person, so your claims otherwise are false.
Of course the stories based on the human Jesus are mythologised and conform to common tropes.
Same with the life of Muhammad. Most of his biography is likely exegetical in nature from centuries after his life.
This is what we expect even if he was a human.
No Paul doesn't say he knew any Jesus. He said he had a revelation 20 years later with a spirit Jesus.Again close to his purported life and written by those whose lives overlapped with his.
" Antinous was almost instantly revered as a dying-and-reviving god,"A feature only found in deified humans, not the purely mythical gods.
So what? We have evidence about the founder of Bahai, the prophet, all types, even details about his execution.And also written down far closer to his life than the sirah of Muhammad was written down and we know he existed.
Yes and even despite those warnings, which he follows, he still can demonstrate how the Mystery religions were definitely an influence on Christianity.He also warns people against overfitting causal narratives that support ones prejudices and preferences.
His view is while it is easy to draw commonalities, especially when looking through vast distances of geography and time, but the secondary assumptions of cause and meaning may well be the creation of the historian.