Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

[Wandering Monk]

One example Jesus ancestry ................

Cue the tap dance.

 

[Audie]

I wonder why you have to resort to being insulting by saying No thinking required_______________
The Bible is Not written in ABC order as a dictionary is, so one can't mindlessly read it like some novel.
Rather, one must search or research the Scriptures by topic or subject arrangement in order to understand it.
Unlike a mindless novel ( No thinking required ) study and research is required through the Bible's corresponding cross-reference or parallel verses and passages to see the internal harmony among it many writers.
Sure, there are fake ' weed/tares ' Christians who just blindly believe, and that does Not make them thinkers.
Whereas, Genuine ' wheat ' Christians do Not blindly believe.

A person who believes anything in genesis
Is other than some sort of metaphor is a
blind believer.

 

[Thief]

How would I know? I dont believe it, but,
I was not there.

No idea of what your second q is about,
and for that matter, your post is in no way
about mine, so it seems we are not communicating.

sure we are....

this thread is about resurrection

If the Carpenter failed

what hope have you?

 

[whirlingmerc]

Wow. I don't think you got one single "fact" right. If you were shooting for 100%, you hit the target.

Actually those are true but you might find this court case interesting regarding a divining stone used to find treasure in NY Changing World Chapter 4

but the life of believers and the fruit of them to point to Jesus resurrection

 

[whirlingmerc]

You just keep coming up with more and more bull****, don't you? You know, I really don't give a damn whether you believe Mormonism to be true or not, but don't you at least have the balls to not just make things up as you go? The first Mormon temple was in no way a mason lodge.

Actually...there are remarkable ties between the LDS and the masons in New York and in Navroo Illinois seems to be pretty deep and seemed top down

from Wiki
The relationship between Mormonism and Freemasonry began early in the life Joseph Smith, founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, as his older brother Hyrum and possibly his father were Freemasons while the family lived near Palmyra, New York. Nevertheless, in the late 1820s, the western New York region was swept with anti-Masonic fervor.

By the 1840s, however, Smith and several prominent Latter Day Saints had become Freemasons and founded a lodge in Nauvoo, Illinois, in March 1842. Soon after joining Freemasonry, Smith introduced a temple endowment ceremony including a number of symbolic elements that were very similar to those in Freemasonry. Smith remained a Freemason until his death; however, later leaders in the movement have distanced themselves from Freemasonry.

and personally, given the occult nature of Masons I would take that as a negative.... and another reasons I'm not persuaded by Mormon claims but am persuaded by Biblical claims

 

[Riders]

Actually...there are remarkable ties between the LDS and the masons in New York and in Navroo Illinois seems to be pretty deep and seemed top down

from Wiki
The relationship between Mormonism and Freemasonry began early in the life Joseph Smith, founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, as his older brother Hyrum and possibly his father were Freemasons while the family lived near Palmyra, New York. Nevertheless, in the late 1820s, the western New York region was swept with anti-Masonic fervor.

By the 1840s, however, Smith and several prominent Latter Day Saints had become Freemasons and founded a lodge in Nauvoo, Illinois, in March 1842. Soon after joining Freemasonry, Smith introduced a temple endowment ceremony including a number of symbolic elements that were very similar to those in Freemasonry. Smith remained a Freemason until his death; however, later leaders in the movement have distanced themselves from Freemasonry.

and personally, given the occult nature of Masons I would take that as a negative.... and another reasons I'm not persuaded by Mormon claims but am persuaded by Biblical claims

I believe it, I'm sure Masons and LDS folks have things in common. I can not say f Masons beliefs in the occult are negative or good because they keep thing secret,so i don't really know what they believe except that some of it is yes mystical.

Many Christians think its mandatory to be Christian to be Mason, it is to be Mason, but not to be Scottish Rite or Shriner.I worked for the Shriners fundraising on the phone for them.They were really nice folks and they have very very good nonprofit charity work going on.

But like I said I don't really know what they believe. They did tell the thing about not having to Christian to be Shriner or Scottish Rite thouhg, you have to believe in a God of some sort thats it.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Cue the tap dance.

One reason I believe it is the change in people such as here, the indian who speared Steve Saint;s father became a Christian and part of the family. That's a deep healing and change

I believe that about 10 years ago he addressed the UN about reconciliation with Steve Saint

 

[whirlingmerc]

I believe it, I'm sure Masons and LDS folks have things in common. I can not say f Masons beliefs in the occult are negative or good because they keep thing secret,so i don't really know what they believe except that some of it is yes mystical.

Many Christians think its mandatory to be Christian to be Mason, it is to be Mason, but not to be Scottish Rite or Shriner.I worked for the Shriners fundraising on the phone for them.They were really nice folks and they have very very good nonprofit charity work going on.

But like I said I don't really know what they believe. They did tell the thing about not having to Christian to be Shriner or Scottish Rite thouhg, you have to believe in a God of some sort thats it.

I'm not trying to say they are not nice folks but I don't find Masons claims to truth to ring true

 

[Riders]

Cue the tap dance.

Oh Im tap dancing am I? Your saying Jesus ancestry report in the Gospels did not contradict each other? How about love your enemy and love your neighbor from a guy who attacked the money changers table and said that we will hate our families and brothers and sisters will war against each other? I have many more this is just a start.

 

[Katzpur]

Actually those are true...

No, they're not. But I'm sure I can't convince you that I, as a Mormon of 70 years, actually know more about LDS history than you do.

 

[Riders]

One reason I believe it is the change in people such as here, the indian who speared Steve Saint;s father became a Christian and part of the family. That's a deep healing and change

I believe that about 10 years ago he addressed the UN about reconciliation with Steve Saint

Well for that matter I have seen many alcoholics and drug addicts come through AA and also use a Christianized self help program who did really well, and Christian self help programs do better then secular ones or so they claim.

However I'm sure other religions, Jewish Muslim Buddhist and yes I even know a few Native Indians, apparently who dont agree with your guy who got sober and use their own native American beliefs including a man I grew up with we use to call Brother Tommy.

So though I do agree Christianity has the power to change folks,truthfully I think spirituality and religion in general has that power.

 

[InChrist]

Citing apologetics websites from people with no relevant education on the Biblical texts is really not meaningful. Like you, the website largely cites the Bible on the assumption that its claims are true. This is entirely the habit I am questioning.
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You can disregard or try to discredit apologetic websites if you like, but if their points are valid and make sense, I don't and won't. The procedure of scholars who are skeptical critics is usually to approach the scriptures presuming they are guilty until proven innocent, or rather unreliable until they are proven to be correct concerning some particular fact. But the reality is time and time again these kind of critics have come out citing certain events or people in the Bible as fictitious...only to later be proven wrong as archeological or other evidence substantiates the scriptures writers were correct.

Regarding whether the Gospels claim to be eyewitness accounts, you (and the website) are simply incorrect. The Luke 1 passage, for example, does not say that the author was an eyewitness. It claims that the stories were "handed down" from eyewitnesses - meaning Luke is a second-hand account at best. None of the non-Gospel passages mention the Gospels, so they are irrelevant.

Luke does not simply say the "stories were handed down". It says ... just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, This means that Luke interviewed any living eyewitnesses, such as Apostles, Mary the mother of Jesus, the women who went to the tomb, and any other disciples who knew Jesus and then he investigated their accounts. Paul's letters and the other epistles also validate the main points of the gospels with regard to the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

Again, these Christian apologetics websites you are citing are simply inaccurate. I would highly encourage you start reading some of the peer-reviewed academic literature out there on the nature, composition, and accuracy of the Gospels. Mark, the first Gospel to be written, does not "clearly teach" that Jesus appeared to many people at all. It ends with the women finding the empty tomb, being afraid, and telling no one about it. (Mark 16:8 - before you cite any verses beyond that, it's well established that the verses beyond 8 are not original to the text and were added later.)

Yes, there is controversy about the verses after verse 8 of Mark 16, but even if you omit any verses past verse 8 the text still says ...“You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here"
So it is in perfect harmony with the other gospels that Christ rose from the dead.

Your claims, and the claims of the website, again stem from just citing the Bible's claims as fact. The largest reason Christianity had such a huge rise in adherents within 300-400 years was its establishment as Rome's state religion, culminating in the outlawing of paganism in the late 4th century.

I don't see this conversation going much further if you are simply going to continue quoting the Bible as fact, when that is exactly where we disagree. I'll give it one more round if you want.

I disagree. The largest and only reason Christianity had such a huge rise was due to the resurrection of Christ, which was preached right there in Jerusalem way before Rome created a state religion. By the time emperor Constantine established Christianity as the state religion, historians say there were around thirty million Christians throughout the Roman Empire.

The disciples of Jesus did not take off to some distant city to preach that Christ rose from the dead, where the facts could not be verified. Jesus' disciples preached the resurrection of Jesus Christ right in the city of Jerusalem, where they would have been quickly exposed and disproved if what they were saying was false and where the dead body of Jesus could be exposed by the religious leaders, government authorities or critics. That would have ended the claim right there and Christianity would never have spread any further. But that never happened, not only did Christianity originate in Jerusalem, it thrived there and spread from there throughout the Roman Empire.

If you prefer to discontinue the conversation, that's fine . You are certainly free to express your negative thoughts about the Bible, but I am not going to stop considering it to be reliable truth just because you don't agree.

 

[InChrist]

Do you remember what you had for breakfast a month ago? Do most people? - memory is not really as good as it is made out to be

No, I don't remember what I had for breakfast last month. I do remember the day President J.F. Kennedy was shot. I was in first grade. I do remember 911. I remember the days my children were born and the day my mom died. People may forget repetitive details like what hey ate for breakfast a month ago, but pretty everyone remembers highlights in their life or important events. I'd say something like the resurrection of One from the dead was a highlight a person would not forget.

 

[InChrist]

@Left Coast is absolutely right - I can prove it without a shadow of doubt - third person accounts - by British diplomats written of unspeakable tortures that some of my people underwent rather than convert to Islam in northern India in the eighteenth century. Including little children. So who knows what motivates such people - if you need evidence or proof of these happenings I can provide them from multiple separate sources including some by islamic authors.

I am sorry for the torture and suffering some of your people went through because they would not convert to Islam. I believe you. But my point was that normally people will not be tortured or let themselves be killed for something they know is merely a lie or made up. There was no reason for the disciples of Jesus to go through persecution and face the violent deaths many of them did if they knew that the whole story of Jesus' resurrection was fake.

 

[InChrist]

But you don't know him. You only have a book that is mixture of myth, history, poor morals, and some actually good spiritual advice. But there is so much chaff in the book that most tend to miss that.

I don't think you can legitimately say that I don't know Jesus. If Jesus is alive (and I know Him to be alive) then there is more than a book.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't think you can legitimately say that I don't know Jesus. If Jesus is alive (and I know Him to be alive) then there is more than a book.

As the saying goes, knowledge is demonstrable. If you can't show that he is alive then all you have is belief.

 

[Prince Mthembu]

His wounds would have a bunch of blood in them, if he was not bleeding out maybe it was not Jesus, must have been a different guy........Jesus was bleeding.

Scripture doesn't certify that the wounds were bloody or not by the time Thomas touched Him, however scripture does say that Thomas touched His hand and put his hand in His side - it would be impossible for anyone else to have a side which can allow a hand to get inside it and still remain alive and fit as the person who appeared to the disciples during that time.

 

[Prince Mthembu]

So, faith in whatsoever god it be in whom
thou hast faith, even so shalt that god be proven. - Yea, unto those who believe.

Got it.

Can you write in kind of plain English? - What part would you like in plain English.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Oh Im tap dancing am I? Your saying Jesus ancestry report in the Gospels did not contradict each other? How about love your enemy and love your neighbor from a guy who attacked the money changers table and said that we will hate our families and brothers and sisters will war against each other? I have many more this is just a start.

Not you. the person you quoted. They always give some convoluted explanation of the discrepancies of Jesus genealogies.

 

[Prince Mthembu]

Such as ...

An image of a seemingly crucified male who got raised up to life by the power of light.

Did you see my above reply before we were interrupted?