Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

[shmogie]

Then the kid clearly wasn't completely dead.

His heart wasn´t beating, he wasn´t breathing , he had no blood pressure, his body temp, was way below the temp that causes death, his brain had no oxygen for a long period of time.

There is no completely about it, you are either dead or you are alive.

 

[shmogie]

The fact that we are conscious is certainly dependent on our physical senses, yes. I don't know what it would mean to be conscious without any physical sensations.

How about self consciousness, does it depend upon the senses ? Does it exist ?

 

[Trailblazer]

The Spirit gives life, the flesh amounts to nothing.

Yes, Jesus said that...

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

So why all the fuss about the physical body of Jesus rising from the grave?

 

[Left Coast]

How about self consciousness, does it depend upon the senses ? Does it exist ?

Same answer.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Read the New Testament. It exists, it is evidence, so, prove it wrong. Of course, you cannot.

You have opinions, which aren´t evidence, and you assume that since no one has been raised from the dead in a context you accept, it hasn´t happened.

Your assumption is wrong too.

Why do you think the NT is reliable evidence?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Yeah. Who else could have divided the day into 24 hours if not human beings? Animals?

So what makes you suppose there's something mystical when other examples of 12 and 24...also created by human beings...show up?

 

[nightshadetwine]

So what makes you suppose there's something mystical when other examples of 12 and 24...also created by human beings...show up?

Oh, I see what you're saying. I don't think there's necessarily anything mystical about it. I just think the number twelve occurs in myths a lot because of it's significance to these cultures. Twelve hours of the day and night, twelve months, twelve signs of the zodiac, etc. I think it became a number that had meaning to (some)ancient cultures. I think the stories of the sun god going through the twelve hours of the night, Jesus and the twelve disciples, Hercules and his twelve labors, Horus and Mithras surrounded by the twelve signs of the zodiac, etc. are telling similar stories that share similar motifs.

Just to be clear, I don't think any of this has anything to do with Jesus actually rising from the dead. I'm not a Christian and don't take the bible literally. I think a lot of it is allegorical.

 

[InChrist]

There's no significant evidence.

Besides dead people don't come back to life. Ever.

People don't, but God did in the Person of Jesus Christ.

 

[Left Coast]

People don't, but God did in the Person of Jesus Christ.

We all understand that's the claim. But the point is you need to demonstrate that to be true.

 

[InChrist]

We all understand that's the claim. But the point is you need to demonstrate that to be true.

I think Jesus did a great job Himself demonstrating the reality of His resurrection.

 

[Left Coast]

I think Jesus did a great job Himself demonstrating the reality of His resurrection.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Before you quote the Bible, we want to know how you concluded that the Bible's claims about Jesus are true.

 

[InChrist]

How did you come to that conclusion?

Before you quote the Bible, we want to know how you concluded that the Bible's claims about Jesus are true.

Why shouldn't the resurrection of Christ be true? Many prophecies were fulfilled in detail by the birth, life, and death of Jesus, so why not the resurrection? There also were many witnesses who saw Him alive after the cross, including the disciples who had their lives completely turned around after seeing Him alive again and never recanted even though most eventually faced death for their testimony. Why would they suffer and die for something if they knew it was no more than a lie?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why shouldn't the resurrection of Christ be true? Many prophecies were fulfilled in detail by the birth, life, and death of Jesus, so why not the resurrection? There also were many witnesses who saw Him alive after the cross, including the disciples who had their lives completely turned around after seeing Him alive again and never recanted even though most eventually faced death for their testimony. Why would they suffer and die for something if they knew it was no more than a lie?

No. That is not the case. Most of the verses cited were not prophecies in the first place. They were quote mined verses from the Old Testament, and that includes the virgin birth myth. That was a combination of a mistranslation and a non-prophecy.

Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies which is why so many Jews rejected him.

 

[Left Coast]

Why shouldn't the resurrection of Christ be true?

Because that's not how human biology works. I would think that would be obvious. Do you believe every resurrection claim you come across?

Many prophecies were fulfilled in detail by the birth, life, and death of Jesus, so why not the resurrection? There also were many witnesses who saw Him alive after the cross, including the disciples who had their lives completely turned around after seeing Him alive again and never recanted even though most eventually faced death for their testimony.

You seem to be just assuming the claims about Jesus in the New Testament are true. My point is, how the heck do you know that? How do you know any of that stuff actually occurred in history?

Why would they suffer and die for something if they knew it was no more than a lie?

They didn't have to be lying. Humans across many cultures and throughout history have been willing to die for honestly misguided reasons.

 

[InChrist]

No. That is not the case. Most of the verses cited were not prophecies in the first place. They were quote mined verses from the Old Testament, and that includes the virgin birth myth. That was a combination of a mistranslation and a non-prophecy.

Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies which is why so many Jews rejected him.

That is your opinion, which you are free to have, but it is not my perspective. And the fact is that many Jews did accept Jesus Christ and believed He was the promised Messiah. It was mainly the religious leaders who did not want their power threatened who rejected Him and persecuted those first Jewish believers.

"Prophecy is absolutely unique to the Bible, being found in no other religious scriptures (though some contain false prophecies). Israel's prophets offered hundreds of prophecies concerning the promised Messiah so that He could be identified beyond question when He came as a humble, virgin-born child. After the resurrection, the apostles preached the gospel to everyone and everywhere, as Christ had commanded them. The two primary pieces of evidence were: 1) their own personal sworn testimony as eyewitnesses of what Christ taught and did (including His crucifixion and resurrection), though it cost them their lives as martyrs for refusing to ecumenically deny the truth they knew; and 2) the many prophecies in Scripture given centuries in advance, which were fulfilled to the letter in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ."
Prophecy

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is your opinion, which you are free to have, but it is not my perspective. And the fact is that many Jews did accept Jesus Christ and believed He was the promised Messiah. It was mainly the religious leaders who did not want their power threatened who rejected Him and persecuted those first Jewish believers.

"Prophecy is absolutely unique to the Bible, being found in no other religious scriptures (though some contain false prophecies). Israel's prophets offered hundreds of prophecies concerning the promised Messiah so that He could be identified beyond question when He came as a humble, virgin-born child. After the resurrection, the apostles preached the gospel to everyone and everywhere, as Christ had commanded them. The two primary pieces of evidence were: 1) their own personal sworn testimony as eyewitnesses of what Christ taught and did (including His crucifixion and resurrection), though it cost them their lives as martyrs for refusing to ecumenically deny the truth they knew; and 2) the many prophecies in Scripture given centuries in advance, which were fulfilled to the letter in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ."
Prophecy

It is fact. Let's go over the supposed prophecies one at a time. And your source lied to you. It is the job of Christian apologists to lie about the Bible.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think Jesus did a great job Himself demonstrating the reality of His resurrection.

How do you know that? There are not even reliable records of eyewitnesses, one of the weakest forms of evidence.

 

[InChrist]

Because that's not how human biology works. I would think that would be obvious. Do you believe every resurrection claim you come across?

You seem to be just assuming the claims about Jesus in the New Testament are true. My point is, how the heck do you know that? How do you know any of that stuff actually occurred in history?

I believe Jesus alone as fully human/fully God alone had the power to resurrect. Why should I doubt that the Creator of heaven and earth could rise from the dead? the scriptures are consistent and based in historical context and I find them to be reliable.

They didn't have to be lying. Humans across many cultures and throughout history have been willing to die for honestly misguided reasons.

Sure, many humans have been willing to die for something they honestly believed in, but the difference is that the disciples of Jesus not only believed Jesus was dead, they KNEW He was dead because they saw Him die. My point is it was only seeing Him alive that changed their whole lives, understanding, and caused them to be willing to suffer and die because they knew He had risen from the grave.

 

[InChrist]

It is fact. Let's go over the supposed prophecies one at a time. And your source lied to you. It is the job of Christian apologists to lie about the Bible.

I am not going over anything more tonight. I've had a full, busy day and am tired and going to bed. Have a good night and oh yeah....

He is Risen!

 

[Trailblazer]

It is fact. Let's go over the supposed prophecies one at a time.

If you go over those one at a time, you will discover that all the prophecies for the coming of Messiah the Jews were waiting for were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah. Their exact fulfillment is explained in Thief in the Night by William Sears.