fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Many of them are atheists, agnostics, ect. Dismissing it because it doesn't agree with you is illogical.
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did jesus exist?
- Thread starter waitasec
- Start date
waitasec
Veteran Member
if you recall, in that documentary; from jesus to christ
the gospel of mark (the very 1st gospel written) originally ended with "they were afraid" no mention of even seeing his resurrected body, just an empty tomb...
The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20. NIV
where was the mentioning of having a meal with jesus found? in verse 14
propaganda?
the temple was destroyed before the gospel of mark was written and the jews of that time were in complete disarray trying to figure out what all this meant... so of course in mark jesus is seen as prophesying the destruction of the temple...all this was written after the fact of course...
Well then tell them to stop doing that.
The first thing you have to do when you're trying to have a discussion about any possible historical Jesus is to take the mythical Jesus and say "OK, we're going to put this guy over here in this corner. Everybody LEAVE THIS GUY ALONE until we're done talking about this other guy".
Seems quite related.
Not if you've given the situation any kind of serious appraisal.
Feralbeest
Member
(taken from an article by Tani Jantsang at this location)
"If Jesus was not an historical person, where did the whole New Testament story come from in the first place? The Hebrew name for Christians has always been Notzrim. This name is derived from the Hebrew word neitzer which means a shoot or sprout - an obvious Messianic symbol. There were already people called Notzrim at the time of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachyah (c. 100 B.C.E.). Although modern Christians claim that Christianity only started in the first century C.E., it is clear that the first century Christians in Israel considered themselves to be a continuation of the Notzri movement which had been in existence for about 150 years. One of the the most notorious Notzrim was Yeishu ben Pandeira, also known as Yeishu ha-Notzri. Talmudic scholars have always maintained that the story of Jesus began with Yeishu. The Hebrew name for Jesus has always been Yeishu and the Hebrew for "Jesus the Nazarene" has always been "Yeishu ha-Notzri." (The name Yeishu is a shortened form of the name Yeishua, not Yehoshua.) It is important to note that Yeishu ha-Notzri is not an historical Jesus since modern Christianity denies any connection between Jesus and Yeishu and moreover, parts of the Jesus myth are based on other historical people besides Yeishu.
We know very little about Yeishu ha-Notzri. All modern works that mention him are based on information taken from the Tosefta and the Baraitas - writings made at the same time as the Mishna but not contained in it. Because the historical information concerning Yeishu is so damaging to Christianity, most Christian authors (and even some Jewish ones) have tried to discredit this information and have invented many ingenious arguments to explain it away. Many of their arguments are based on misunderstandings and misquotations of the Baraitas and in order to get an accurate picture of Yeishu one should ignore Christian authors and examine the Baraitas directly.
The skimpy information contained in the Baraitas is as follows: Rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachyah once repelled Yeishu with both hands. People believed that Yeishu was a sorcerer and they considered him to be a person who had led the Jews astray. As a result of charges brought against him (the details of which are not known, but which probably involved high treason) Yeishu was stoned and his body hung up on the eve of Passover. Before this he was paraded around for forty days with a herald going in front of him announcing that he would be stoned and calling for people to come forward to plead for him. Nothing was brought forward in his favour however. Yeishu had five disciples: Mattai, Naqai, Neitzer, Buni, and Todah.
In the Tosefta and the Baraitas, Yeishu's father is named Pandeira or Panteiri. These are Hebrew-Aramaic forms of a Greek name. In Hebrew the third consonant of the name is written either with a dalet or a tet. Comparison with other Greek words transliterated into Hebrew shows that the original Greek must have had a delta as its third consonant and so the only possibilty for the father's Greek name is Panderos. Since Greek names were common among Jews during Hashmonean times it is not necessary to assume that he was Greek, as some authors have done.
The connection between Yeishu and Jesus is corroborated by the the fact that Mattai and Todah, the names of two of Yeishu's disciples, are the original Hebrew forms of Matthew and Thaddaeus, the names of two of Jesus's disciples in Christian mythology."
"If Jesus was not an historical person, where did the whole New Testament story come from in the first place? The Hebrew name for Christians has always been Notzrim. This name is derived from the Hebrew word neitzer which means a shoot or sprout - an obvious Messianic symbol. There were already people called Notzrim at the time of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachyah (c. 100 B.C.E.). Although modern Christians claim that Christianity only started in the first century C.E., it is clear that the first century Christians in Israel considered themselves to be a continuation of the Notzri movement which had been in existence for about 150 years. One of the the most notorious Notzrim was Yeishu ben Pandeira, also known as Yeishu ha-Notzri. Talmudic scholars have always maintained that the story of Jesus began with Yeishu. The Hebrew name for Jesus has always been Yeishu and the Hebrew for "Jesus the Nazarene" has always been "Yeishu ha-Notzri." (The name Yeishu is a shortened form of the name Yeishua, not Yehoshua.) It is important to note that Yeishu ha-Notzri is not an historical Jesus since modern Christianity denies any connection between Jesus and Yeishu and moreover, parts of the Jesus myth are based on other historical people besides Yeishu.
We know very little about Yeishu ha-Notzri. All modern works that mention him are based on information taken from the Tosefta and the Baraitas - writings made at the same time as the Mishna but not contained in it. Because the historical information concerning Yeishu is so damaging to Christianity, most Christian authors (and even some Jewish ones) have tried to discredit this information and have invented many ingenious arguments to explain it away. Many of their arguments are based on misunderstandings and misquotations of the Baraitas and in order to get an accurate picture of Yeishu one should ignore Christian authors and examine the Baraitas directly.
The skimpy information contained in the Baraitas is as follows: Rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachyah once repelled Yeishu with both hands. People believed that Yeishu was a sorcerer and they considered him to be a person who had led the Jews astray. As a result of charges brought against him (the details of which are not known, but which probably involved high treason) Yeishu was stoned and his body hung up on the eve of Passover. Before this he was paraded around for forty days with a herald going in front of him announcing that he would be stoned and calling for people to come forward to plead for him. Nothing was brought forward in his favour however. Yeishu had five disciples: Mattai, Naqai, Neitzer, Buni, and Todah.
In the Tosefta and the Baraitas, Yeishu's father is named Pandeira or Panteiri. These are Hebrew-Aramaic forms of a Greek name. In Hebrew the third consonant of the name is written either with a dalet or a tet. Comparison with other Greek words transliterated into Hebrew shows that the original Greek must have had a delta as its third consonant and so the only possibilty for the father's Greek name is Panderos. Since Greek names were common among Jews during Hashmonean times it is not necessary to assume that he was Greek, as some authors have done.
The connection between Yeishu and Jesus is corroborated by the the fact that Mattai and Todah, the names of two of Yeishu's disciples, are the original Hebrew forms of Matthew and Thaddaeus, the names of two of Jesus's disciples in Christian mythology."
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately Acts is rather vague as to where in scripture the proof is:
Acts27When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. 28For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.
Feralbeest
Member
Robert M Price writes:
"In broad outline and in detail, the life of Jesus as portrayed in the gospels corresponds to the worldwide Mythic Hero Archetype in which a divine hero's birth is supernaturally predicted and conceived, the infant hero escapes attempts to kill him, demonstrates his precocious wisdom already as a child, receives a divine commission, defeats demons, wins acclaim, is hailed as king, then betrayed, losing popular favor, executed, often on a hilltop, and is vindicated and taken up to heaven."
He asserts that there are a number of historical and mythical figures whose life stories contain these elements, including Jesus. But just as we do not regard Hercules as a historical figure, a case can be made that Jesus was also a mythical character.
Some theologians and historians believe that many of the details of Jesus' life were "borrowed" from a competing, contemporary religion, Mithraism. The religion was founded in Persia before the birth of Christianity.
Mithra was a fictional character who was worshipped as a Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, and the Messiah. A religion in his name was founded in the 6th century BCE. 5 Mithraism one of the most popular of religions in the Roman Empire, particularly among its soldiers and civil servants. It was Christianity's leading rival. 19 Mithra was also believed to have been born of a virgin. Like Jesus, their births were celebrated yearly on DEC-25. Mithra was also visited by shepherds and by Magi. He traveled through the countryside, taught, and performed miracles with his 12 disciples. He cast out devils, returned sight to the blind, healed the lame, etc. Symbols associated with Mithra were a Lion and a Lamb. He held a last supper, was killed, buried in a rock tomb. He rose again after three days, at the time of the spring equinox, circa MAR-21. He later ascended into heaven. Mithraism celebrated the anniversary of his resurrection, similar to the Christian Easter. They held services on Sunday. Rituals included a Eucharist and six other sacraments that corresponded to the rituals of the Catholic church. Some individuals who are skeptical about stories of Jesus' life suspect that Christianity may have appropriated many details of Mithraism in order to make their religion more acceptable to Pagans. St. Augustine even stated that the priests of Mithra worshipped the same God as he did. 19 Other early Christians believed that Satan invented Mithraism and that he made Mithra's life and the practices of the religion identical to what Christianity would become centuries later. They felt that Satan's purpose was to confuse believers.
Many religious historians have noted the many parallels between events in the life of Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) and God-men from ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc.
"In broad outline and in detail, the life of Jesus as portrayed in the gospels corresponds to the worldwide Mythic Hero Archetype in which a divine hero's birth is supernaturally predicted and conceived, the infant hero escapes attempts to kill him, demonstrates his precocious wisdom already as a child, receives a divine commission, defeats demons, wins acclaim, is hailed as king, then betrayed, losing popular favor, executed, often on a hilltop, and is vindicated and taken up to heaven."
He asserts that there are a number of historical and mythical figures whose life stories contain these elements, including Jesus. But just as we do not regard Hercules as a historical figure, a case can be made that Jesus was also a mythical character.
Some theologians and historians believe that many of the details of Jesus' life were "borrowed" from a competing, contemporary religion, Mithraism. The religion was founded in Persia before the birth of Christianity.
Mithra was a fictional character who was worshipped as a Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, and the Messiah. A religion in his name was founded in the 6th century BCE. 5 Mithraism one of the most popular of religions in the Roman Empire, particularly among its soldiers and civil servants. It was Christianity's leading rival. 19 Mithra was also believed to have been born of a virgin. Like Jesus, their births were celebrated yearly on DEC-25. Mithra was also visited by shepherds and by Magi. He traveled through the countryside, taught, and performed miracles with his 12 disciples. He cast out devils, returned sight to the blind, healed the lame, etc. Symbols associated with Mithra were a Lion and a Lamb. He held a last supper, was killed, buried in a rock tomb. He rose again after three days, at the time of the spring equinox, circa MAR-21. He later ascended into heaven. Mithraism celebrated the anniversary of his resurrection, similar to the Christian Easter. They held services on Sunday. Rituals included a Eucharist and six other sacraments that corresponded to the rituals of the Catholic church. Some individuals who are skeptical about stories of Jesus' life suspect that Christianity may have appropriated many details of Mithraism in order to make their religion more acceptable to Pagans. St. Augustine even stated that the priests of Mithra worshipped the same God as he did. 19 Other early Christians believed that Satan invented Mithraism and that he made Mithra's life and the practices of the religion identical to what Christianity would become centuries later. They felt that Satan's purpose was to confuse believers.
Many religious historians have noted the many parallels between events in the life of Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) and God-men from ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc.
David_2010
Member
I'm kind of interested in ancient religions, and, from what I've read, the "similarities" between Mithras and Jesus are very minor, and doesn't indicate one "stealing" from the other.
A good book on Mithras is 'The Roman Cult of Mithras: The God and His Mysteries' by Manfred Clauss he includes a chapter comparing Christ and Mithras, and states that the similarities between the 2 Cults are not based on one copying the other, but, due to origins in a similar part of the world (e.g. both are Middle Eastern in origin, were water was seen as a Holy or Sacred element, which is why it played an important role in both).
From what I've read, other academics have dimissed similarities between "dying and rising" Gods, like, I know that the Egyptian God, Wesir (Greek name "Osiris") isn't actually a dying and rising god. He does "die", but, is then reanimated in the Egyptian Netherworld and became its ruler, he isn't, technically, alive, to walk the earth.
logician
Well-Known Member
The problem with the "Jesus Exists" question is that it is not well constructed. The question should be asked "what Jesus Existed?". Obviously, the Jesus of the NT could not have existed, or he would have had numberous contemporanious historical recordings of his actions, by several historians who wrote down minutia about everything. You then get into trying to tie hearsay evidence written down by unknown authors much laterto some particular man in history, which contrary to popular belief has NOT been done yet. So we really don't know 2 things, WHAT Jesus existed, or if any Jesus existed remotely tied to the NT stories.
By that logic you could easily argue that most figures who are accepted as historical never existed. Why would Roman authors even care about some obscure Jewish peasant who was executed by the Roman prefect for crimes against the state? Nearly none of the other messianic and apocalyptic figures mentioned by Josephus are mentioned by anybody other than Josephus, that means none of them existed and Josephus made them up.
Also, Paul was apparently better well known throughout the Roman world than Jesus and yet no contemporary historian mentions him either. A phantom wrote his letters! Unexplainable.
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
No doubt there are figures we accept as historical that don't exist as portrayed. We don't know anything about Paul other than what we can garner from reading about 7 epistles attributed to a Paul.
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by logician
Only accept as authentic by "biblical" scholars, not exactly an unbiased group. LOL
Originally Posted by logician
Only accept as authentic by "biblical" scholars, not exactly an unbiased group. LOL
I doubt it.
The point is here is an influential person unknown outside christian circles. Which kind of flies in the face of the "no non-christians wrote about jesus therefore he isn't historical" argument.
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
No one made that argument.
People here have, but the point was the person you quoted was addressing that argument, whether logician can be said to have made it or not (he has before, certainly, although here it can be argued he hasn't):
outhouse
Atheistically
jesus was a myth
the bible has been scientificaly proven false on many different levels
tower of babel
the great flood
sun revolves around the earth
evolution
with that said, if the bible is wrong there, how or why did they get jesus right?
jesus is based on previous religions based from astrology.
the name jesus was a common name, like mark, joe, stan ect ect but funny there is not one mention of him by any of the 48+ scribes that lived when jesus was supposed to. Only long after his death does any mention of jesus appear in any text. [there are also no writings from jesus himself]
if jesus was the sun of god why didnt he tell anyone the world wasnt flat and that the sun didnt revolve around the earth.
I know why he was a myth
the bible has been scientificaly proven false on many different levels
tower of babel
the great flood
sun revolves around the earth
evolution
with that said, if the bible is wrong there, how or why did they get jesus right?
jesus is based on previous religions based from astrology.
the name jesus was a common name, like mark, joe, stan ect ect but funny there is not one mention of him by any of the 48+ scribes that lived when jesus was supposed to. Only long after his death does any mention of jesus appear in any text. [there are also no writings from jesus himself]
if jesus was the sun of god why didnt he tell anyone the world wasnt flat and that the sun didnt revolve around the earth.
I know why he was a myth
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dogsgod
Well-Known Member
No one here has, it would be a stupid argument because no one single argument like that would lead to such a conclusion. Only you could come up with a straw man like that because that is your MO.
Right. Logician is here, and he has:
And the historical figure never existed, there is not one contemperaneaous historian who ever writes about such a man.
And on and on
Have you read ANY scholarship on the historical Jesus, by any chance?
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
He's not drawing his conclusion from that argument alone, he's made several other points that add up leading more and more people to question the existence of this Jesus character. You're making the straw man argument that he is, and coming from you it is of no surprise.
That's one of logician's main arguments (although it is as fallacious as the others, which isn't suprising given someone who, not unlike you, bases almost every argument off sources like The Jesus Mysteries). I didn't ever say it was the only argument.