I don't think "If not A, then B" is a correct equation. It eliminates "M"... man.
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Did Jesus LIE, or is the Bible in error?
- Thread starter Patrick Miron
- Start date
No, not a reasonable question since it sets up an unreasonable dichotomy. This is related to the fallacious argument of CSLewis and Josh McDowel called the 'More than a Carpenter' argument. They posit either Jesus is God or a liar. Its an equally fallacious argument.
Er......no!
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
There are several lies recorded in the Bible by Jesus.
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/is-it-true-that-jesus-never-lied/
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Jesus said he spoke in parables so everyone would NOT understand. Only those who are called to him receive the ability to understand.
Phantasman
Well-Known Member
Denying that Jesus was the Son of God and calling him a prophet is not the truth. If Jesus was the (spiritual) truth, anyone who takes away or changes that claim, is of the "murderer and liar" god Jesus spoke of in John 8. If you murder men, you are not of the (spiritual) truth. The Jews, catholics and Mohammad himself taught and did murder.
See which god you like, The Father of Jesus (spiritual) never murdered any man.
Phantasman
Well-Known Member
If you love your enemy, you won't kill them. Explain Muhammads slaughter (as the Jews slaughtered). Christians would rather die than murder. The flesh is not life. The spirit is.
those 'parables' are quite overrated
Patrick Miron
Patrick4Jesus
I think it's foolish to blame Jesus for what his followers have done. Personally, I don't think Jesus or Jehovah existed nor did they ever. The Bible is more like an Illiad or fairy-tale to me. The thing with fairy tales is that when people retell the story they often change it or take other liberties with it. This freedom of interpretation means and sort of "divine word from god" nonsense is laughable at best. I doubt we have one copy of those texts that hasn't been completely mangled.
Different groups arrogantly took it upon themselves to fill all the holes in the story, obviously. When two didn't agree they just split up and tried to out-market the other. It doesn't matter so much if your are right, but RIGHT now. If you get my drift. Of course, that still does nothing to address the first problem. They have no idea what they're fighting over any more than you or I.
Evidence of God
Did you choose what you’re wearing today? {Or did you dress yourself this morning?}
If you did I can show evidence of God to you.
The Bible has existed for nearly 2,000 years, and we believe it to be the Inspired WORD of God.
In its 1st book:
Genesis, 1: 26 & 27 we are taught that we are made in the image & likeness of God.
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them
Then is the Gospel {Meaning the “GOOD News”} of John 4: 23-24, tells us that {our} God is:
“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
That God is a “Spiritual Reality”
Q: So if God is a Spirit and man is made in His Image; how can that be? “Man” is human
[1] In all of the Universes BILLIONS of stars, galaxies and planets, only ONE can be proven to be able to support ALL of the Life-Forms that we are aware of. Planet Earth
[2] On Planet Earth with its hundreds of MILLIONS of different living things; only ONE, only Man can choose to love or hate, only Man, can rationalize.
[3] In order for Man to be able to love, hate & rationalize require in an absolute sense:
A mind {not meaning our brain}
A Intellect {not meaning “I.Q.} &
A Freewill
[4] Each of these attributes, are like God: Spiritual realities & immortal. Meaning that they can’t be killed & don’t die.
[5] If you’re doubtful? Define for me your “FREEWILL” What is its size, weight, color & shape?
It can’t be done but only a foolish person would assert that it does not exist.
[6] Science tells us that like things originate from other “like-things.”
[7] So these “Spiritual Realities” have to have a source, other than our parents, who transmit our physical attributes; but cannot transmit “spiritual {invisible} things”.
[8} further evidence of a Power, a Source greater than man is evidenced in the Natural Laws: Motion, gravity for example. Then there are the Sun & the Moon both which paly essential roles in sustaining Earths life forms. With many BILLIONS of stars and planets the odds that they exist in the forms NECESSARY to sustain life, and then BE in OUR Galaxy is many BILLIUONS to One. {Impossible!} By luck or coincidence.
[8] Then add to this the Moral Laws: Good and evil too have to have a source, an origin. Because this Power, this Source that WE CHOOSE to identify as our God is Good, we can know that Goodness {LOVE} comes from God; while hate exist permitted by God, so man can freely choose good or evil.
[9] Enter into a discussion of WHY man is given these attributes: LIFE After physical death discussion
St. Thomas Aquinas:
The Existence of God can be proved in five ways.
Argument Analysis of the Five Ways
The above is too large to cut & paste, but can also be used.
God Bless,
PJM
St. Thomas Aquinas:
The Existence of God can be proved in five ways.
Argument Analysis of the Five Ways © 2016 Theodore Gracyk
The First Way: Argument from Motion
- Our senses prove that some things are in motion.
- Things move when potential motion becomes actual motion.
- Only an actual motion can convert a potential motion into an actual motion.
- Nothing can be at once in both actuality and potentiality in the same respect (i.e., if both actual and potential, it is actual in one respect and potential in another).
- Therefore nothing can move itself.
- Therefore each thing in motion is moved by something else.
- The sequence of motion cannot extend ad infinitum.
- Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.
- We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world.
- Nothing exists prior to itself.
- Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself.
- If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results (the effect).
- Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists.
- If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.
- That is plainly false (i.e., there are things existing now that came about through efficient causes).
- Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past.
- Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.
- We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, that come into being and go out of being i.e., contingent beings.
- Assume that every being is a contingent being.
- For each contingent being, there is a time it does not exist.
- Therefore it is impossible for these always to exist.
- Therefore there could have been a time when no things existed.
- Therefore at that time there would have been nothing to bring the currently existing contingent beings into existence.
- Therefore, nothing would be in existence now.
- We have reached an absurd result from assuming that every being is a contingent being.
- Therefore not every being is a contingent being.
- Therefore some being exists of its own necessity, and does not receive its existence from another being, but rather causes them. This all men speak of as God.
- There is a gradation to be found in things: some are better or worse than others.
- Predications of degree require reference to the “uttermost” case (e.g., a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest).
- The maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus.
- Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.
- We see that natural bodies work toward some goal, and do not do so by chance.
- Most natural things lack knowledge.
- But as an arrow reaches its target because it is directed by an archer, what lacks intelligence achieves goals by being directed by something intelligence.
- Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.
May God guide our life paths,
Patrcik
People believe a lot of things mostly because they sound good too them. It doesn't make it any more true, but I guess if you enjoy the lie you're happy.
It's hard to say Jehovah created anything when Jehovah pops out out of nowhere thousands of years after other deities were on the scene. It's like stumbling onto a piece of fan-fiction a thousand years later and presuming that the writers were the original authors of the what they based the material on. It's ludicrous to accept that concept for anyone that can truly think. Regardless, if you can't concede that there is no way Jehovah is the creator (because he didn't exist at that time) then there isn't much to discuss.
It could be that your interpretation of the Bible is as innacurate as some muslims interpretation of the Koran is.
Peace be always upon you
What had this to do with your claim that Muslims consider Jesus to be a liar?
Cougarbear
Member
What is your point?
Cougarbear
Member
If you are referring to some of the so-called other gospels that are out there now, the problem with those is that they contradict the writings of the Apostles in the Bible. And, they contradict each other as well. That's why they were not included in the compiling of the Bible at the council with Constantine. The current Gospel such as the King James version support each other from book to book. Yes, there are errors and we say the Bible is correct for as long as it is translated correctly. But, we know it's not completely accurate through interpretations and changes made by various groups and Churches. Perhaps this is why in the book of Ezekiel it's mentioned that in our days, there will be an additional book (The stick of Joseph through Ephraim) that will be to those that have this book another testament of Jesus Christ. And, the Lord's people of Israel will have both books, Judah and Joseph. for a fulness of the Gospel and clarification. Of course, it will take the faith that the Lord would send another prophet, seer and revelator to give us this book. Isaiah also refers to this event in Isaiah chapter 29. The book that is sealed. Of course, this Prophet will have to re-establish the Savior's Church again on the Earth. That Church could not be a splinter group from other of the many Churches either. It would have to be a new Church of Jesus Christ.
Cougarbear
Member
Jesus also said do all things in his name. Jesus being God as well, then it is proper to name the church, The Church of Jesus Christ as well. God is a title.
Cougarbear
Member
Yes, the "rock" is the method Peter learned that Jesus is the Son of the Father. The method is "revelation." The rock is revelation through the Father in the name of the Son through the Holy Ghost. It's upon revelation the Lord builds his church. After the last Apostle was no longer human on the earth, the revelation stopped. The heavens were closed. The Bible also teaches that in the last days, the heavens would open up again after an apostasy took place. The restitution of all things would restore the Gospel to its fulness and understanding. Not through a dead Church that lost revelation. But, from a new Church through a prophet. God only revels his secrets to his servants, the Prophets. Amos 3:7
Cougarbear
Member
And Baha'i makes the cut? Really? And, others do make the cut.
In the end Faith comes down to accepting Gods Message in the age it was given and then not rejecting Gods Next Messenger if one has the bounty of living in that day.
We all know what happened to the Jews in regard to rejecting the way God had given. If we think we are a special people in this day and we will not, or have not, missed the return of Christ, then the delusion is already ours.
Peace be upon you and all.
From what I have found, it is a mighty Rock they have built their Faith upon, the Rock of Christ, that Peter also shared all those years ago.
Peace be upon you and all.
I see a confusion as to who is the Father in this response you have posted.
The restoration I see began in 1844 and I found it interesting that the founder of the Mormon Faith passed away in that same year, as Joseph Smith violent and untimely death was in 1844, the year that Christ chose to fulfil prophecy.
As no one knows who Christ Looks like and the Two Prophets that were to usher in what I see is most likely the event we all await, I found this vision of Joseph Smith quite amazing;
"I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head," he wrote, "above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me." Within that light, he saw two personages — one of whom spoke Joseph's name, pointed to the other, and said, "This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!"
The Bab and Baha'u'llah at that time were already born and already amazing all those that came into contact with them. Many people had dreams about the Bab and Baha'u'llah and it appears that Joseph Smith also did, though His confusion about religion confused the meaning of his vision.
I see the most likely interpretation of Josephs vision is that Christ the Son returned as Baha'u'llah the Father.
Peace be upon you and all.