Insurrection.
I see you identify yourself as a Christian. Is it your position that Christ's death was unnecessary for salvation?
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Insurrection.
There was no spiritual magic involved, if that's what you mean. Humanity was reconciled when God became Incarnate. The crucifixion provided a catharsis through which that Incarnation was emphasized, and by which resurrection was made more visible.I see you identify yourself as a Christian. Is it your position that Christ's death was unnecessary for salvation?
1.you are violating occams razor big time when it comes to your selection of the supernatural cause of our natural universe..... think about it... you have defined your god to be the most powerful, most complex thing imaginable... so when it comes to choosing between your god, and the plethora of other possible supernatural causes, you might as well slide down occams razor butt naked. OUCH!
sorry friend. but you have not established whether your god always existed, or at one point began to exist... how do we know?? for the bible tells us so??....
remember, the concept of a state of the art sky scraper randomly ALWAYS existing by chance and nothingness is just as likely as the concept of a state of the art sky scraper randomly APPEARING by chance from nothingness....or will you try to argue that one scenario is more reasonable than another? i think not...
we dont know whether your god appeared in his current complex form from nothing, or whether he always existed that way....the only thing we know for sure, is that either way, your god had no control over his own existence... his own characteristics, powers, nature, disposition, ANYTHING about him/it.... all of these highly specific choices that define his existence are/were out of his control.....question is, were they in someone/thing elses control? or were they just a result of random chance and nothingness as you seem to imply by claiming that god was not a product of intelligent design.
First off, that is not what Occams Razor means. Occams Razor states that we should accept the simpler explanations before we accept the more "difficult" explanations. That is Occams Razor, so I dont know what you are talking about here.
Yes I have. I based my arguments based on the origins of the universe from nothing, the fine tuning of the universe based on the astronimcal odds against any naturalistic occurence, based on the impossibility of infinite regress, and the concept of objective moral values. And I base my belief in Christianity based on the evidence for the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I agree with what you say here. I just hope it wasn't a moment that said humans fail but we are still here so we might be good. )(There was no spiritual magic involved, if that's what you mean. Humanity was reconciled when God became Incarnate. The crucifixion provided a catharsis through which that Incarnation was emphasized, and by which resurrection was made more visible.
For me, the importance of the crucifixion isn't some formulaic spiritual necessity, but a teaching moment. It teaches both the cruelty that has infected humanity and the great love of God for us, that God would willingly be subjected to utter helplessness and suffering, all for love of us.
We are good. Good is our true nature, that has been infected by sin.I agree with what you say here. I just hope it wasn't a moment that said humans fail but we are still here so we might be good. )(
But surely if god's love was so great then his imposition of death and suffering on mankind would be inconsistent?There was no spiritual magic involved, if that's what you mean. Humanity was reconciled when God became Incarnate. The crucifixion provided a catharsis through which that Incarnation was emphasized, and by which resurrection was made more visible.
For me, the importance of the crucifixion isn't some formulaic spiritual necessity, but a teaching moment. It teaches both the cruelty that has infected humanity and the great love of God for us, that God would willingly be subjected to utter helplessness and suffering, all for love of us.
First off, that is not what Occams Razor means. Occams Razor states that we should accept the simpler explanations before we accept the more "difficult" explanations. That is Occams Razor, so I dont know what you are talking about here.
Yes I have. I based my arguments based on the origins of the universe from nothing, the fine tuning of the universe based on the astronimcal odds against any naturalistic occurence, based on the impossibility of infinite regress, and the concept of objective moral values. And I base my belief in Christianity based on the evidence for the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Ummm, huh?
True, God cannot "not" exist. Very true. The theist doesn't have any problem with this, and in fact, we would prefer to worship a God that exists necessarily and is not a product of some other pre-existing cause. No problems for the Christian here.
There was no spiritual magic involved, if that's what you mean. Humanity was reconciled when God became Incarnate. The crucifixion provided a catharsis through which that Incarnation was emphasized, and by which resurrection was made more visible.
For me, the importance of the crucifixion isn't some formulaic spiritual necessity, but a teaching moment. It teaches both the cruelty that has infected humanity and the great love of God for us, that God would willingly be subjected to utter helplessness and suffering, all for love of us.
Jesus was not God & quickly pointed that out when someone refered to him as "Good Master" & he replied, "None is good, save one, that is God." -Luke 18:19So God subjected Himself to immense pain and suffering to teach us a lesson?
The Bible says in quite a few places that He died on the cross so our sins could be forgiven. Or do you simply not accept those verses?
God didn't "impose" that upon us. It's simply part and parcel of the material world.But surely if god's love was so great then his imposition of death and suffering on mankind would be inconsistent?
No. God was subjected to pain and suffering as part of God's having become Incarnate.So God subjected Himself to immense pain and suffering to teach us a lesson?
Tell me: Assuming that God became Incarnate in order to reconcile us, in what way would his having avoided the cross have helped that cause? Jesus spoke truth. It was that truth that led directly to his crucifixion. Being fully human, he was as susceptible to the vagaries of humanity as any other person.The Bible says in quite a few places that He died on the cross so our sins could be forgiven. Or do you simply not accept those verses?
That's your opinion. How, then, does Jesus' death "effect" salvation?Jesus was not God
But we already have been saved -- or, in your view, the crucifixion meant nothing.He can't do anything without your consent... only if you apply his teachings, will you be saved.
No. God was subjected to pain and suffering as part of God's having become Incarnate.
But there are lessons to be learned and meanings to be taken away from the event.
Tell me: Assuming that God became Incarnate in order to reconcile us, in what way would his having avoided the cross have helped that cause? Jesus spoke truth. It was that truth that led directly to his crucifixion. Being fully human, he was as susceptible to the vagaries of humanity as any other person.
God didn't "impose" that upon us. It's simply part and parcel of the material world.
That's why it's a "miracle."tell me: how did gods incarnation subject him to suffering physical pain but not subject him to the laws of physics(i.e. when he walked on water)?
Your point? Or are you simply being obtuse?which he created
That's why it's a "miracle."
Your point? Or are you simply being obtuse?
FYI, you're barking up the wrong tree here if you're itching for a fight. I'm well aware that the Bible contains both parabolic and mythic events. Whether Jesus actually walked on the water or not is not for me to say. I've personally witnessed some miracles on the part of people that clearly defy "nature." I don't know what they were, but I'm not going to waste time analyzing them, either. Many of the miracle stories probably are mythic in nature. So what? None of this is germane to the topic.ah, i see now. so on the one hand we are supposed to believe that jesus was not subject to the laws of physics in order to believe that he walked on water(amongst other physics defying stunts) thus proving to be god.........while on the other hand we are supposed to believe that jesus was subject to the laws of physics in order to believe that he suffered pain on the cross, so that we can feel guilty about rejecting him......how clever.