Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[Heathen Hammer]

You believe one thing -- I believe another. I'm just stating my position. Points don't remain, unless you can prove that "I'm wrong." I submit that all die and are reborn. I submit that even Jesus died and was resurrected. That's my stance. It's no more "bunk" than yours.

I have proven you are wrong: Jesus rose.
You and I don't.

Presupposing some future event does not make you right. the future event may most likely not happen. You can't place a winning bet and collect on a horse that never runs.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I don't believe in substitutionary atonement, so you're preaching to the choir here. This isn't "my dogma."

Love doesn't keep track of offense. Therefore, God does love us.

God does keep track of offenses. Ergo, he does not.
If he didn't, all enter Heaven regardless, and there is no Hell. Nor any need for even the concept of sin.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I have read this sentence several times already. However, how should one interpret it?

At first glance, being fully human includes being imposed to several limitations while the same doesn't happen to a fully God being.

It also adds up to 200%

 

[garrydons]

Well...since we Jews don't think such a thing as "dying for our sins" is possible, our answer is "no."

Shalom. How about animal sacrifices, are not those offered animals offered to atone one's sins? Or I just dont understand.

 

[garrydons]

Jesus or Yeshua have to die for our sins. This is how it works during the time of Moses. Animals are being offered to atone one's sins. This is the picture of the Messiah.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Nah, the Hebrew moschiach does not die until his work is fulfilled. All of it. There is no 'coming back' to get it right. Also, he's just a man. A great man; he is considered great because of all he does as a mere man. Jesus, if 200% God, cheated.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

This is exactly what you are saying in the sentence : "I have been sitting perfectly still in a chair for eternity (in a timeless state)". The present perfect continuous is used to describe an event that started in the past and continues to happen in the present. That is why you contradict yourself. You can not use the present perfect continuous and, at the same time, say you are not describing an event that continues to happen.

What?? Just because I said "I have been.." doesn't imply that I started something. This is where you critique falls short. God existed before time, there was never a moment before he existed, or a moment after he existed. There has to be a word to describe this state. We can either give the word "eternity" a second definition to mean timelessness, which has actually already been done, or we can just say God existed in a timeless state. In the case of the analogy, I am describing the state of a person that existed while sitting in a chair. If there is no before or after this state, you cannot logically say that the analogy is a temporal concept.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

i have been saying this for a long time now... TIME in one form or another always existed. nothing can exist without time. the very state of existence implies time. if you want to argue that something, in this case god, always existed you have to include the existence of time.... you cant say that god created time, because there was a time before god created time, which automatically implies time...it is false to assume that god created time when he moved out of his sitting position. the very act of god sitting in a chair implies time. to say that god always sat in a chair, is to imply time.... forever, always, eternal, infinitely, all describe time, all be it inconprehensible, its time nonetheless

Once again, if God was sitting in a chair perfectly still for eternity, he never began to sit, so there was never a moment before he sat. So logically, there could not be any moments AFTER he sat. So therefore, there was no time. No, the very act of God sitting in a chair doesn't imply time. It would imply time only if he began to sit. But of course, this is not the argument. So before you respond to anything else, explain how could God have existed in time if there was never any moments leading up to his existence??? In fact, this very idea is absurd, because we know that time couldn't possibly be infinite. Time had a beginning, and it could only be created by a being that transcends it.

 

[Thief]

Once again, if God was sitting in a chair perfectly still for eternity, he never began to sit, so there was never a moment before he sat. So logically, there could not be any moments AFTER he sat. So therefore, there was no time. No, the very act of God sitting in a chair doesn't imply time. It would imply time only if he began to sit. But of course, this is not the argument. So before you respond to anything else, explain how could God have existed in time if there was never any moments leading up to his existence??? In fact, this very idea is absurd, because we know that time couldn't possibly be infinite. Time had a beginning, and it could only be created by a being that transcends it.

Several threads around here about time....
Time does not exist....at all.
It is not a force nor is it substance.
It is a quotient on a chalkboard.... a measurement.

For time to exist you need a distance...which implies two points.
Then a motion relative to those two points.
Also a number system to perform a calculation.
And all you get is a number.....nothing more.

The singularity has no point system.
For the singularity to be truly singular...no second point can be allowed.
When a second point is allowed...infinity presents itself.
There are an infinite number of points between any two.

Now what has that to do with Jesus dying for our sins?
Which He did not.

 

[Thief]

Shalom. How about animal sacrifices, are not those offered animals offered to atone one's sins? Or I just dont understand.

It's called scapegoating.
Place your sin upon the animal (by the action of a holy man) and then kill the animal. Your sin dies with it.

I always thought the concept to be shallow.

 

[Thief]

Jesus or Yeshua have to die for our sins. This is how it works during the time of Moses. Animals are being offered to atone one's sins. This is the picture of the Messiah.

You got the picture a little blurry.

The messiah is a Jewish king upon a Jewish throne....
sent by God to establish a Jewish kingdom on this earth.

Jesus had nothing to do with any of that.

 

[FearGod]

Reply Posted by trruth

Yes,i dont have faith that jesus was one day god

both Matthew and Luke corroborate in their respective 17th chapters that Jesus is quoted as saying that, if we have faith the size of a mustard seed, we could move mountains.

Reply Posted by trruth

So you have faith,could you move the mountains?if not,
then how many faithful ones who could move the mountains,i guess if they
could do so,then that will be a good evidence for the world to believe that
jesus is god,what they are waiting for?

Peter healed people and cast out demons.
Peter began to walk on the water, until he began to doubt.
Jesus said that we would do greater things than he.


...?"

Reply Posted by trruth

So can you walk on water or do faithful christians walk on the water,why they dont
do so to help us to believe that jesus is god.

can we then come back to life again after death as jesus did.

Jesus said that we would do greater things than he.

Reply Posted by trruth

Jesus is fully god and we could do greater things than him,we can do greater things than god

Perhaps your faith isn't what it needs to be, if you "can't

Yes,i dont have faith, i cant walk on water but you can

Reply Posted by trruth

Still awaiting for your reply

 

[Koldo]

What?? Just because I said "I have been.." doesn't imply that I started something.

It implies you continue to do something.
This is how the present perfect continuous works.

This is where you critique falls short. God existed before time, there was never a moment before he existed, or a moment after he existed.

Nothing can exist before time.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

It implies you continue to do something.
This is how the present perfect continuous works.

Continuing to do something does not imply beginning to do something.

Nothing can exist before time.

So give a nice sound argument in favor of an infinite past.

 

[Koldo]

Continuing to do something does not imply beginning to do something.

Are you going to contradict yourself again?

You said a few posts ago that :"In order to continue something, you have to start something, and this is just not the case here."

So give a nice sound argument in favor of an infinite past.

There isn't an infinite past.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Several threads around here about time....
Time does not exist....at all.
It is not a force nor is it substance.
It is a quotient on a chalkboard.... a measurement.

Time exists as a conccept, at the very least.

For time to exist you need a distance...which implies two points.
Then a motion relative to those two points.
Also a number system to perform a calculation.
And all you get is a number.....nothing more.

1. We have the distance, however far space expanded from the singularity (point 1) to the actual singularity point/event (point 2)

2. If space is expanding, that is obviously the relative motion

3. We have the number system to identity the points.

Conclusion: We have everything you ask for.

The singularity has no point system.
For the singularity to be truly singular...no second point can be allowed.
When a second point is allowed...infinity presents itself.
There are an infinite number of points between any two.

I agree, infinity presents itself, but only potentially

Now what has that to do with Jesus dying for our sins?
Which He did not.

Jesus didn't die for our sins?? Can you provide evidence for this?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You got the picture a little blurry.
The messiah is a Jewish king upon a Jewish throne....
sent by God to establish a Jewish kingdom on this earth.
Jesus had nothing to do with any of that.

Pentecost had to do with Jesus.
Pentecost was the start of the Christian congregation.
Since Pentecost the 'Israel of God' became a 'spiritual nation'. -1st Pt. 2 v9
'Spiritual Israel' is by heart not by fleshly code. - Romans 2 vs 28,29
Since Pentecost both Jew and non-Jew can be part of the spiritual Israel of God.
The modern nation of Israel exists as a national group or nation not as God's spiritual nation.
Messiah is a 'Christian king' who will reign over earth. -Psalm 72v8;Rev. 20v6

 

[sojourner]

What part specifically?

...did not consider Divinity a thing to be grasp, but emptied himself...

I don't understand what this has to do with what i said.
Could you clarify?

You said (in essence) that God is not limited. This post answers that opinion.

 

[sojourner]

i have been saying this for a long time now... TIME in one form or another always existed. nothing can exist without time. the very state of existence implies time. if you want to argue that something, in this case god, always existed you have to include the existence of time.... you cant say that god created time, because there was a time before god created time, which automatically implies time...it is false to assume that god created time when he moved out of his sitting position. the very act of god sitting in a chair implies time. to say that god always sat in a chair, is to imply time.... forever, always, eternal, infinitely, all describe time, all be it inconprehensible, its time nonetheless

Time doesn't have to be linear.

 

[sojourner]

I have proven you are wrong: Jesus rose.
You and I don't.

How have you proven that? Habeas corpus, please.