Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[PolyHedral]

Please post the Scripture verses you have in mind for the ^above^.

Satan turned himself into a Satan and a Devil.
-James 1 vs 13-15; Ezekiel 28 vs 13-17

God created all as free moral agents to choose for one's self.
-Deut. 30 v 19; 32 v 5; Lev. 1 v 3

Where does it say God can be in multiple places at once?
1st Kings chapter 8 repeatedly places God in heaven. [heavenly home]
The resurrected 'ascended to heaven' Jesus appears before the person of God located in heaven.- Hebrews 9 v 24.

Psalm [104 v 30] mentions when God sends forth his spirit things are created, and the face of the earth is renewed.
That does not place God in multiple places but places his active spirit where he wants it.

Do you really need a citation for Satan being a creation of God and that God is all-powerful?

 

[beerisit]

So, is God getting ready to fire up his Rototiller and take out the weed patches ?
Take out the weed patches in order to relieve mankind of distresses !

- Psalm 72

Well he hasn't done for 100,000yrs why would he now?

 

[beerisit]

Well he hasn't done for 100,000yrs why would he now?

What will stop you from sinning?

 

[PolyHedral]

What will stop you from sinning?

Being convinced. Not that hard for an all-knowing God, surely?

 

[beerisit]

Being convinced. Not that hard for an all-knowing God, surely?

He's already had forever and failed.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Let's say you [gardener] are in your garden and there is an interruption.
Would you go back to your garden after the interruption was over ?
Or, would you say because of the interruption I will never go back to my garden?
Most people just go back to their garden once the interruption is over.

Ohh, here we go altering anecdotes so their flaws are lessened.

I would personally go back and continue. In what way is that analogous to your God? Who never, it seems, went back? Or, went back once, with Jesus, then mucked it all up again so he tore off once more in a huff, and never returned?

God planted with quality seeds, Satan threw in the weeds/tares.

As a gardener i am aware that weeding is a necessary part of the process. To not anticipate for weeds = incompetent gardener.

Satan is at fault because Satan is the one who caused an interruption in God's paradisaic garden.

Incorrect, Satan exposed the gardener's incompetence and lack of attention-span. In this example.

We are still living at that 'time of interruption' but that does not mean God has abandoned his purpose to return, so to speak, to the paradisaic garden.

Really and why doesn't it mean that?
Not returned yet = didn't return.

Return or come back to 'weed out' the garden with 'weed-b-gone' forever.
['wicked-b-gone' forever.-Proverbs 2 vs 21,22; Psalm 92 v 7]

We are nearing the weeding 'time of separation' [Matthew 25 vs 31,32]

the problem with this is that the weeds were actually also planted by the gardener. Unless it's your proposal that certain people were deliberately put here to be discarded weeds? Which would make your God even ore horribly barbaric than he is as we've been previously been discussing!

when Jesus will weed out, or separate, the good sheep or 'wheat'-like people from the wicked goat 'weed/tares'-like people at this global 'time of separation' or 'harvest time'.

All in all, this analogy got way out of your control; I see my above assessment was spot on.

Satan's deliberate efforts to corrupt everyone fails because the thriving wheat do not become weeds.
Just as the humble sheep do not become haughty goats.

I still fail to see how you can justify killing weeds then, since they were influenced by something they could not possibly counteract [ie., planted deliberately, no matter by whom]. Ergo, punishing humans for Satan's crimes = ultimate injustice.

So, God's purpose for a paradisaic earth has never changed, [Rev. 11 v 18 B]

Revelations = garbage and not actual scripture, but I digress

just like when you want to do something and something else gets in the way.
It does not stop you from doing what you want it just delays you for a while.
Jesus will soon put an end to Satan's getting in our way.

'Soon" = 'failed to'
Why must we live and die before it happens? Not just.

[Rev. 19 vs 11,15; Isaiah 11 vs 3,4]
Then, God, as the Greatest Gardener, will have Jesus usher in global Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.
-Back to the garden we go. Back forever and ever.

Given how evil the gardener has become in your points, I'm glad Im actually one of the crows.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Thats the point, they are not in the hand of a ignorant, petty, sinful man. They are in God's omnipotent, onniscient, perfectly just hands. How can the former evaluate the latter. If you can't see the onvious problem here I give up.

The below states in better than I have.

"My ways are not your ways"
Can you imagine playing Kasparov at chess? I think he'd wipe the floor with me! Or can you imagine a six year old child debating Physics with Einstein?
Or could your own child, at the age of four, understand the skills and intricacies of what you do at school or college or work? Probably not, because what you do is so much more complex than ayoung child's, and they just don't have the vocabulary.
Could you begin to explain it? Perhaps a little; but there are limits to what they can understand at so young an age. You would certainly have to explain in very simple language, and that might give them a glimpse of what you do.

In the same way, God is far more complex than we are, and we cannot understand him fully. If we read the book of the Isaiah in the Bible, we find these words in chapter 55, verses 8 and 9, spoken through Isaiah, who was a prophet:
"My thoughts are completely different from yours," says the Lord. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."
This means that we can only glimpse a portion of what God is doing in our lives and in the lives of others. There is an inevitable gap in understanding.

However, God provides a means to bridge that gap in two ways:

1. He has given us the Bible, which we sometimes refer to as "the word of God". We believe that the books of the bible have been given to mankind as a sort of Handbook or Manual. It contains answers to many questions, and the beginnings of many understandings. And the Bible stands on the assumption that God speaks and people can hear him. And some special people were chosen to write down what God has revealed. And some people can hear God today, and they reveal what God chooses to reveal through them.
2. Just as the Bible was written in the light of the understanding given by the Holy Spirit, so we need to read it in the same light. And that requires faith. If you will believe and trust in Jesus Christ, then pray and ask God to reveal the meaning of the "scriptures" (that is, the writings in the Bible) through the understanding of his Holy Spirit.

These revelations through the scriptures eventually become part of us, and help to change us into the sort of person that God wants us to become, deep down inside where it counts. And only God can do this. My ways are higher than your ways.

It's possibly reasonable to say you don't believe in God. It's rediculous to say you can judge him if he is who he said he is.It reveals an unimaginable level of arrogance.

Again, Dog Whisperer fallacy. That's another one of mine, Google it.

Also again, your answer fails in the simple aspect of placing god's actions into the hands of a man instead.; It's not that we don't understand them; it's that we understand them to be immoral and you cannot handle this simple fact. You are, in fact, mentally incapable of handling this fact, by your indoctrination.

If your God claims to be "omnipotent, onniscient [sic], perfectly just," then by demonstrated actions he's not only not those things, he's also a liar. You see, he's obviously not who he says he is; the rest is academic.

It's really not even rocket science.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

You do not seem to understand Christian theology very well. God made it clear that to force someone to love and follow him is not what he desires. He gives a choice, and inevitably some will choose to reject it. To appeal to your argumentation procedures you love so much. You use many strawman arguments. You state a non-Christian view point refute it and think you have done so with Christianity.

What in the world is funny about the date for the version of the bible I listed. The verse itself has been around for thousands of years. Tell me what's funny so I can laugh.

Your problem is I understand it far better than you do.
The age of the verse does nothing to it's credibility.

Try harder.

 

[PolyHedral]

He's already had forever and failed.

Oops, thought you were someone else.

 

[1robin]

Your problem is I understand it far better than you do.
The age of the verse does nothing to it's credibility.

Try harder.

I will try harder if you will try at all. I never suggested the verse's age made it credible. I said it's relationship to a 1984 bible version is no logical reason for humor.

 

[1robin]

Again, Dog Whisperer fallacy. That's another one of mine, Google it.

Also again, your answer fails in the simple aspect of placing god's actions into the hands of a man instead.; It's not that we don't understand them; it's that we understand them to be immoral and you cannot handle this simple fact. You are, in fact, mentally incapable of handling this fact, by your indoctrination.

If your God claims to be "omnipotent, onniscient [sic], perfectly just," then by demonstrated actions he's not only not those things, he's also a liar. You see, he's obviously not who he says he is; the rest is academic.

It's really not even rocket science.

Your pride in your intellectual ability is only exceeded by its lack of justification.
You have access to a vanishingly small amount of the information available to God. Just like a whiny child who thinks his dad is mean because he didn't get what he wanted, a man is just not capable of grasping just the informational component alone of any of God's decisions. You cannot honestly deny the possibility of a sufficient moral justification for any action of God. It just isn't possible. The fact you don't see that suggests your ideological presuppositions are superseding your reason. I have heard many secular philosophers that have admitted this to be true if one assumes God exists.

It is not even science at all.

 

[cablescavenger]

Jesus didn't die for anyones sins.

Think about it. No everyone is a sinner, just a small minority of people, many of whom are religious.

For some reason we are expected to believe that Jesus felt it was worth dying for, yet people who sin don't feel it is worth dying for. In other words the small number of people who sin will always sin.

If this Jesus character really existed, then surely he could have figured that out before being crucified.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Well...since we Jews don't think such a thing as "dying for our sins" is possible, our answer is "no."

What about the passover lamb? Though I am not very familiar with Jewish texts, is not the lamb in Exodus also in Jewish scriptures? That lamb died (not only died, but was killed) to cleanse the nation of Israel, staving off the angel of death. Is this not a sacrifice for the sins of each family, for surely they deserved death just as much as the Egyptians.

Why do you think passover and the passion happened at the same day of the year?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Think about it. No[t] everyone is a sinner, just a small minority of people, many of whom are religious.

Please explain your reasoning here.

 

[1robin]

Jesus didn't die for anyones sins.

Think about it. No everyone is a sinner, just a small minority of people, many of whom are religious.

For some reason we are expected to believe that Jesus felt it was worth dying for, yet people who sin don't feel it is worth dying for. In other words the small number of people who sin will always sin.

If this Jesus character really existed, then surely he could have figured that out before being crucified.

New Living Translation (©2007)
If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth

If any worldview is derived on the idea that most people are perfect then I know of nothing for that theory but to die a miserable, rejected, dishonorable death.

The character of Jesus is more substantialy confirmed by textual evidence than any other character in ancient history.

 

[Thief]

Nay.
Why do you keep repeating this lost concept, again and again? is it just a tantrum you use when you have no arguments? Your 'what will you do when you stand up at the end' garbage? it doesn't apply. This has been repeated to you so many times now I just don't understand your absolute failure to get it. At this point, it's like... creepy and pathological.

Your God is in control in this scenario; he's infallible. So all the mistakes belong to him. It's his fault.
EVERYone has personal responsibility and the ONLY one who refuses it is your God. So criticize him about it, because refusal of personal responsibility is your fetish. Unless you're too cowardly to stand up to the ONE person whose fault it actually is!

Though I already know the answer. Yes, you're too cowardly.

IN your anecdote, God is the gardener. Who is casting the seeds? Who chooses the ground? How do the seeds determine where they are thrown? Can they see the ground? Can they choose to fall or not? So yes, by your own inept example, it's God's fault; well done.

The one telling phrase from you is "God is responsible?....okay." Because that's where you realize, yes, it's God's fault, but you don't dare point it out because he's a petty vengeful little prick who will destroy you for pointing out his incompetence. So it's not truth you are interested in, no honor, virtue or justice or moral righteousness, it's not upsetting your tyrant.

At least man up for once in your life and admit that's all it is. You are not a noble rogue poet; you're a sniveling coward.

Nay to you.

Are you not suggesting... standing face to face with God and blaming Him for all you have said and done?

This would not be heroic.
It would be foolish and suicidal.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Nay to you.

Are you not suggesting... standing face to face with God and blaming Him for all you have said and done?

This would not be heroic.
It would be foolish and suicidal.

More immature than foolish, and not suicidal.

 

[sojourner]

There is no possible way to make an "independent" decision. The only way a decision can be made are either 1) based on memories, which are a consequence of how the universe is, or 2) randomly. Neither of these can sensibly be called our responsibility.

So? The choice is still ours.
BTW: What does any of this subterfuge have to do with the OP?

 

[sojourner]

I chuckled that you quoted a version published in 1984 for things said 'in former times'.

Btw, God's power and infallible Will should overcome Man's 'desire to be free of authority and accountability'.

And it will -- but only when we're ready.

 

[sojourner]

Providing vague, and occasionally immoral dictums via a questionable tome written in prehistory, is not 'spoon feeding'.

I didn't say it was. But it does seem to be the wish of some here that God spoon-feed us, rather than help us grow by our own volition.