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Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
Humorous note: you have yet to answer my question to you. In the midst of your balloon-juice here, you have failed to provide a reasonable, coherent, intelligent, and theologically-sound argument why Jesus did not have to die for our sins.

So, Mr. I'm-wonderful-because-I-have-a-"published"-"fallacy"-and-an-unpublished-book-and-get-off-on-blowing-my-own-horn, can you answer the question, or are you simply going to bore us with more of your same self-stroking?
Um, I did answer it. I have been answering it for many pages, scattered throughout the thread.

the theologically sound argument was succinct: god already stated in the Hebrew scriptures that no-one needs to intercede between him and man for a man's sins.
he may repent of his sins to god, and forgiveness is his. There is no need to believe in Jesus as a savior or intercessor; nor was Jesus' "sacrifice" necessary.

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica]Repentance
If a person repents and confesses his sins and dies repentant he earns life in the world to come.f Repentance atones for all sins; even if a person is wicked all his life and repents at the end, his wickedness is all forgotten.g A person should always think of himself as about to die so that he will repent immediately.h If a person's sins are very great or very many so that he deserves to receive punishment, he may be prevented from repenting, as when G-d hardened Pharaoh's heart 9,i; therefore as long as a person has free choice he should strive to repent.j
The repentant sinner should not think that on account of his sins he is far beneath the righteous. Rather, he is beloved by G-d as though he had never sinned; moreover, his reward is great since he has tasted sin and overcome his inclinations and abandoned it.k Repentance brings one close to G-d, as it says "Return, O Israel, to Ha-Shem your G-d".10,l Israel will not be redeemed except through repentance, as it says "And when all of these things come upon you... you shall return to Ha-Shem your G-d... and Ha-Shem your G-d will return you from captivity...".11,m
When a person repents he is required to confess before G-d, as it says "If a man or woman commits any sin... they shall confess their sin that they did".l2 One who confesses must specify his sin and state that he regrets doing it and will never repeat it, as it says "Let the wicked man abandon his way [...and return to Ha-Shem]".13,n The Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) is a time for all to repent and confess, as it says "For on this day He will atone for you [to purify you from all your sins]".14,o
If a person violates a positive commandment and repents he is immediately forgiven. If he violates a negative commandment and repents, the repentance suspends his punishment and the Day of Atonement atones for it. But if his sin is one which carries the punishment of "cutting off" or the death penalty, repentance and the Day of Atonement only suspend his punishment and he does not have complete atonement until he has borne suffering; and if he desecrated the Name when he sinned, only his death gives him complete atonement.p For sins toward one's fellow-man one is never forgiven until he has compensated his fellow-man and appeased him.q[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica]
http://www.torah.org/learning/halacha-overview/chapter5.html,
A rabbi's summation from Maimonides.


There. Theologically sound. In scripture. Merely a rewording of what I've already said, which had always been mindful of Hebrew truth, which of course, you denied being there.


As for the rest of your bitterness: you mad bro? Poor Robin needed to hear my bona fides, not you, since he needs to offer someone else's words; your assessment is of no consequence.

Since i answered your question, you are required to answer mine. Or, of course, you can wimp out.
[/FONT][/FONT]
 
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Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
Just because you say "that's how God behaves" does not mean it is true. On what do you base that assessment? How did you arrive at it? Is your assessment decidedly one-dimensional, based upon what you choose to read into one book? It certainly appears so.
On God's own behavior and statements. In his own scriptures. It's exactly as God behaves. What else do I need?
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
Point out one place in this post:

In which an ad hominem was made. You're accusing yourself of sinking to a level to which I never went.
Sure. In red:
That's what spurred me to say what I did. your "obvious knowledge" obviously doesn't extend to responsible exegesis. For if it did, you would quickly understand that these "flaws" are completely meaningless and don't diminish the truth of the metaphors one iota.
You seem to want to dismiss the bible because it contains factual flaws. This shows that you misunderstand the nature of the bible. Either that or you're really desperate to discredit Xy, based upon such a straw man.
That's right. But the factual flaws are only part of the total exegesis. To highlight them, ignoring the rest of the information, is not good exegesis. Your statement that:
To ignore them is also not good exegesis. As I said, the totality of what is said, is responsible exegesis. Not just the nice parts. Since it was my point to show the negative parts, ignoring the negative parts is illogical.
In addition it is to my credit and your confundity that I acknowledged that the positive parts exist any time you bring them up; the point is you wish to conceal that they share pages with the negative. It's YOU who feel the need to drop lines. Not me. YOU feel the need to conceal, to label that half 'unimportant'. Not me.


shows that you are unwilling to exegete, according to the definition you just gave. Exegesis attaches no agenda to the outcome. You have an agenda. You want to "prove" that "the bible is unreliable." That would be "eisegesis."
The "agenda" of exegesis is to display all the truth. Even the ugly part.
In addition I was obviously speaking of the agendas of persons, not the text, at one point in that sentence. You attempted to conflate the two. Nice dissembly.

They are meaningless in the establishment of theological truth. They're "static," so to speak, that have to be filtered.
Well, they certainly have to be filtered to conceal the bad bits.

Pot, meet Kettle (once again). Here's what you would answer, if I had posted the above statement:
"Waaaaaah! Why don't you pout and cry some more, Noob? I'm picking on you and no one else."
I'm far more eloquent than that. :D
And I'm not attempting to conceal that I'm happy to insult you; you are. You pretend virtue. I display it, in all it's glory. And all it's vice.

My debate is with you -- not with Robin. Yes, I feel that he's wrong on several points. I'll get around to him when -- and if -- I feel like it.
In other words you won't contradict a fellow believer. Yes, I'm familiar with this hypocrisy. it will be delightful to see how many weeks it takes you to 'get around to it', though my prediction is you never, ever will. And I'm an awesome prophet.

You make the statement that:

but yet you whine that I'm not being fair in my comments?
It's the classic "Pee-Wee" argument. (See, I can invent "fallacies" too, and "publish" them).
Why don't you just give up and whine: "I know you are, but what am I?"
Oh, dear.

Given your desperate need to be contrary I understand your need to equal my bona fides, such as they are in this laughable subject, but I have actually 'published' that fallacy. It's documented. I am also actually a registered minister. However, all of these things were simply a counterpoint to another poster, but I notice your envy creeping steadily along in your need to comment, as if your opinions on such are relevant to the argument before us. By noting them I was displaying the fallacy of his numerous one-sided appeals to authority. You see, if confronted with someone who has some kind of experience in something he sited as being beyond me because of a specific piece of paper/experience that his one source has [yet another arbitrary requirement], he'd either backtrack of brush it off as unimportant. To cover his weak argument. Seen it before.

Lies can only be brought to light through truth, not more lies. To say that "The God of Genesis is immoral, because he murdered a bunch of people," is a lie.
No it isn't. It's right in the text. As I've been doing here and in other threads, by placing his actions in the hands of a person that person would immediately been stamped as immoral. Morality is self-reflexive [as I've also stated many times].

In addition I do not lie here. None of you are sufficiently important to me to be considered mortal enemies, and thus, I have no need to lie. If I needed to come to arms against one of you then my faith allows me to lie to you; in terms of casual lies though, that would be considered a dishonorable 'sin', and we don't sin. Foreign concept to you, I know. But still.

It's just irresponsible exegesis. Responsible exegesis reveals that the story is a metaphor, pointing to the theological position that God always saves us. That's the truth of the story. It's told from the POV of the remnant -- those who have been systematically screwed by the establishment. The story cannot be properly understood from the position of the establishment. It must be understood from the position of the disenfranchised. Your "revealing of the 'flaws'" does no good.
And I'll repeat: nowhere is that idea put forth by the text, and I've had yet to see a citation from a Hebrew scholar by you or anyone, putting forth such an idea. I asked initially for enlightenment of such at the time, and again you breezed on by it. Care to tackle it now, or will you glide off again?

It's still name-calling, and against forum rules.
Aw.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Um, I did answer it. I have been answering it for many pages, scattered throughout the thread.

the theologically sound argument was succinct: god already stated in the Hebrew scriptures that no-one needs to intercede between him and man for a man's sins.
he may repent of his sins to god, and forgiveness is his. There is no need to believe in Jesus as a savior or intercessor; nor was Jesus' "sacrifice" necessary.

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica]
http://www.torah.org/learning/halacha-overview/chapter5.html,
A rabbi's summation from Maimonides.


There. Theologically sound. In scripture. Merely a rewording of what I've already said, which had always been mindful of Hebrew truth, which of course, you denied being there.


As for the rest of your bitterness: you mad bro? Poor Robin needed to hear my bona fides, not you, since he needs to offer someone else's words; your assessment is of no consequence.

Since i answered your question, you are required to answer mine. Or, of course, you can wimp out.
[/FONT][/FONT]
finally! The rest is flotsam.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
On God's own behavior and statements. In his own scriptures. It's exactly as God behaves. What else do I need?
They're not "his own scriptures." They're our scriptures. We wrote, edited, translated, compiled and codified them. Therefore, whatever is said in them is also ours. You'll have to dig a little deeper than that in order to "emulate God."
Arrogance and a feigned indifference are a poor substitute for Godly behavior.

You will need a deeper understanding of the truths contained in the texts -- not simply a cursory reading, and a desire within you to love and do good.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
To ignore them is also not good exegesis. As I said, the totality of what is said, is responsible exegesis. Not just the nice parts. Since it was my point to show the negative parts, ignoring the negative parts is illogical.
To not weigh in the good, while highlighting the bad for biased purposes is, likewise, illogical.
In addition it is to my credit and your confundity that I acknowledged that the positive parts exist any time you bring them up; the point is you wish to conceal that they share pages with the negative. It's YOU who feel the need to drop lines. Not me. YOU feel the need to conceal, to label that half 'unimportant'. Not me.
Nope. Not what I'm doing. What I'm doing is pointing out that the "bad stuff" is irrelevant to the theological truth of the story, when properly exegeted.
The "agenda" of exegesis is to display all the truth. Even the ugly part.
In addition I was obviously speaking of the agendas of persons, not the text, at one point in that sentence. You attempted to conflate the two. Nice dissembly.
You have an agenda: To point out to the morally-gullible the bad parts of the bible.
Well, they certainly have to be filtered to conceal the bad bits.
"Concealing the bad bits" isn't the goal. "Weighing the bad bits" is the goal.
I'm far more eloquent than that.
Not usually, from what you've produced here...
And I'm not attempting to conceal that I'm happy to insult you; you are. You pretend virtue. I display it, in all it's glory. And all it's vice.
Touche, although this:
is neither eloquent, nor virtuous. Flouting decent behavior isn't virtuous. Which renders your above statement a falsehood. Also not virutuous.
In other words you won't contradict a fellow believer.
Nope. In other words, I don't wish to expend the time or energy debating him. Had you been around long enough, you'd have noticed that I spend plenty of time contradicting "fellow believers." Either that, or you're intentionally making a false statement here.
Yes, I'm familiar with this hypocrisy.
Show me the rule that says: "Posters must debate with everyone in a thread."
This isn't hypocrisy. It's a choice. Or do you feel as though I'm simply picking on you unfairly?
Well, unfortunately for you, I'm not here to make you happy. If you don't like the way I choose my dance partners, please, by all means, feel free to stop wasting my bandwidth.
it will be delightful to see how many weeks it takes you to 'get around to it', though my prediction is you never, ever will.
hardly a prediction, since I've already indicated that I won't.
Given your desperate need to be contrary I understand your need to equal my bona fides, such as they are in this laughable subject, but I have actually 'published' that fallacy.
Uh huh. And you seem to have a desperate need to make sure that we're all aware of that little factoid. As if being published is something special. If you think I'm in any way jealous, you have my full permission to think again.
It's documented.
Great. So are my cat's bowel habits. Again: So what? It's of monumental unimportance to this thread.
I am also actually a registered minister.
So were Jim Jones, Oral Roberts and Jimmy Swaggart...
So what?
However, all of these things were simply a counterpoint to another poster, but I notice your envy creeping steadily along in your need to comment, as if your opinions on such are relevant to the argument before us.
Envy isn't the motivating factor. Guess again.
By noting them I was displaying the fallacy of his numerous one-sided appeals to authority.
So... your signature line is simply a reaction to his posts? Must be scary to give away that much power to someone you don't know.
No it isn't. It's right in the text.
It's a literary device. A story. Metaphor. and that makes a difference -- as I've said numerous times before. And it's not "murder," as I've alsopointed out.
As I've been doing here and in other threads, by placing his actions in the hands of a person that person would immediately been stamped as immoral.
As a registered minister, you are, no doubt, aware that, since there is a distinction between humanity and Divinity (as outlined in the Bible -- which we're arguing here), to "place God's actions in the hands of a [human] person" is theologically irresponsible. That renders the subsequent verdict also irresponsible.
In addition I do not lie here.
Hmmm... a paradox?
None of you are sufficiently important to me...
And yet, you've wasted all this precious time and energy on us toadies...
And I'll repeat: nowhere is that idea put forth by the text, and I've had yet to see a citation from a Hebrew scholar by you or anyone, putting forth such an idea.
You haven't looked very far.

Since you're the one who put forth the opinion, it's up to you to back it up with sufficient exegesis. So far, you haven't done that.
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
They're not "his own scriptures." They're our scriptures. We wrote, edited, translated, compiled and codified them. Therefore, whatever is said in them is also ours. You'll have to dig a little deeper than that in order to "emulate God."
Arrogance and a feigned indifference are a poor substitute for Godly behavior.
Essentially you've rendered them useless, then. There's no need to debate about them further. Good work.
Your next post is essentially all garbage.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Essentially you've rendered them useless, then.
To you, quite possibly. But then, Guitar Hero is fairly useless to a baboon, too.
Your next post is essentially all garbage.
Any semi-sentient park ranger will tell you that the best way to fight fire is with fire...
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So, too cowardly to fulfill your responsibility of answering your question? noted.
Someone once said, "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

I've got better things to do with my time, and I'm trying to save the forum from your annoyance.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Someone once said, "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

I've got better things to do with my time, and I'm trying to save the forum from your annoyance.
Good point but I will add:

Someone also said "Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty but the pig enjoys it".
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
And are we getting any closer to a consensus?
This far into it, reiteration may be the only way to go.

Jesus did not die for our sins.
He died for cause of false accusation.
He was not king of the Jews.

Savior?....yeah....His teachings are the correction to the sins of Man.
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
Someone once said, "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

I've got better things to do with my time, and I'm trying to save the forum from your annoyance.
Please, I'm one of the few highlights to be had, here.

A question was put to you; you failed to answer it. You then demanded someone else answer your question; it was answered. You are the one lacking in scruples, and it's obvious to everyone.
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
To not weigh in the good, while highlighting the bad for biased purposes is, likewise, illogical.
Eight saved; several million killed. Between two and seven or eight of most animals saved; all others killed. Plant life left to fend for itself.

The good is far outweighed by the bad.

Nope. Not what I'm doing. What I'm doing is pointing out that the "bad stuff" is irrelevant to the theological truth of the story, when properly exegeted.
Again, your idea of proper exegesis is bad.
At this point in fact, it's a bit ridiculous to state that it's irrelevant. The only way to show that Noah and his crew, and their cargo, are 'saved' from anything, is to show what they are saved from. And what are they saved from? Total destruction of everyone else by drowning.
Now, your problem, is that you wish the exegesis to show only what the story author intended. As I state quite clearly earlier, it's absurd to imagine the bible would ever show any action of God in a negative light, as it's essentially his advertisement. But, the reality is that the examination of the text shows a lot more than the spin. the background upon which the rosy picture is painted is essentially a swath of crimson. Saints set bears upon children; brimstone wipes out cities; the entire population of the Earth are killed and then, we are threatened with such destruction again at a later date.

All in the name of love? Of forgiveness? It's laughable.

It would be laughable, that is, if it weren't so abjectly horrific.

You have an agenda: To point out to the morally-gullible the bad parts of the bible.
Your agenda is the opposite. Except for the morally gullible part. The exegesis shows the Bible is bad. The morally gullible must be protedcted, because they are the most vulnerable to being told 'God murdering millions to save a few is a-ok!"

"Concealing the bad bits" isn't the goal. "Weighing the bad bits" is the goal.
They were weighed. This is the result.

is neither eloquent, nor virtuous. Flouting decent behavior isn't virtuous. Which renders your above statement a falsehood. Also not virutuous.
A short answer was all that was needed. To pretend each sentence I produce must be verbose is a false requirement, because you can't come up with anything else; so you play more pretend. I have given no falsehoods here, which you cannot say yourself. Your entire philosophy as demonstrated here is based on deceit.

Nope. In other words, I don't wish to expend the time or energy debating him. Had you been around long enough, you'd have noticed that I spend plenty of time contradicting "fellow believers." Either that, or you're intentionally making a false statement here.
No evidence to support your statement is present in this thread. Your statement is obviously false, especially since you then did not take the opportunity to demonstrate your 'virtue' here, right at that moment. You shied away from it, which is telling.

hardly a prediction, since I've already indicated that I won't.
QED

Uh huh. And you seem to have a desperate need to make sure that we're all aware of that little factoid. As if being published is something special.
Again, as I noted, it was in response to something of a similar nature;' Im not grandstanding.

So... your signature line is simply a reaction to his posts? Must be scary to give away that much power to someone you don't know.
That was there before I ever interacted with him, so no, and he has no power over me, please. Look at you warping context! Something you appear to like to do a lot.

It's a literary device. A story. Metaphor. and that makes a difference -- as I've said numerous times before. And it's not "murder," as I've alsopointed out.
Point it out to your brethren, who believe it's history.

Wait, no, you never would, allow me:

Behold, Robin: this guy agrees with me. You're taking a fairy tale literally.

About the use of the word 'murder': it's true, it's an emotionally charged word. And in a literal sense, it does require the death to be against a law of some sort. While you cannot with any sincerity deny the 'with malice aforethought' on God's part, I guess I can relent that there is no written law saying God cannot kill any one. Alas, because he abuses that loophole all the time. So which synonym shall I use in future?

annihilate, asphyxiate, assassinate, crucify, dispatch, do away with, do in, drown, dump, electrocute, eradicate, erase*, execute, exterminate, extirpate, finish, garrote, get*, guillotine, hang, hit*, immolate, liquidate, lynch, massacre, neutralize, obliterate, off*, poison, polish off, put away, put to death, rub out, slaughter, slay, smother, snuff, strangle, suffocate, waste*, wipe out, zap

Of that short list, I'm feeling partial to either 'exterminate' or 'slaughter'.
But be relieved, ye believers! God only slaughtered everyone else on Earth! It's so much better now.

As a registered minister, you are, no doubt, aware that, since there is a distinction between humanity and Divinity (as outlined in the Bible -- which we're arguing here), to "place God's actions in the hands of a [human] person" is theologically irresponsible. That renders the subsequent verdict also irresponsible.
Not all ministers follow your tattered Bible. that's not a requirement for ministry. All religion isn't simply your religion with different names pasted in. the Bible is the last book anyone interested in humanity and divinity should follow for ideas. As I've been showing.
In addition: in what way is it theologically irresponsible? lol, quite the opposite. No such rule or saw exists. More deception on your part. And if the Bible states that, well, what better way to keep the ignorant, ignorant? Don't think about it, just obey.

Hmmm... a paradox?
None.

Since you're the one who put forth the opinion, it's up to you to back it up with sufficient exegesis. So far, you haven't done that.
I have.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Please, I'm one of the few highlights to be had, here.

A question was put to you; you failed to answer it. You then demanded someone else answer your question; it was answered. You are the one lacking in scruples, and it's obvious to everyone.
I know what's obvious to everyone here: Hitler was a highlight of WWII, as well.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Eight saved; several million killed. Between two and seven or eight of most animals saved; all others killed. Plant life left to fend for itself.

The good is far outweighed by the bad.
Inconsistent comparison.
Fallacy.
At this point in fact, it's a bit ridiculous to state that it's irrelevant. The only way to show that Noah and his crew, and their cargo, are 'saved' from anything, is to show what they are saved from. And what are they saved from? Total destruction of everyone else by drowning.
Now, your problem, is that you wish the exegesis to show only what the story author intended. As I state quite clearly earlier, it's absurd to imagine the bible would ever show any action of God in a negative light, as it's essentially his advertisement. But, the reality is that the examination of the text shows a lot more than the spin. the background upon which the rosy picture is painted is essentially a swath of crimson. Saints set bears upon children; brimstone wipes out cities; the entire population of the Earth are killed and then, we are threatened with such destruction again at a later date.

All in the name of love? Of forgiveness? It's laughable.

It would be laughable, that is, if it weren't so abjectly horrific.
Several problems here:
1) (Yet again) Inconsistent comparison. Your use of the term "bad" is different from mine.
2) historian's fallacy. you're assuming that the way you look at the problem is the way the authors looked at the problem.
3) Continuum fallacy. You're improperly rejecting my claim as being imprecise.
4) Psychologist's fallacy. You're supposing your own objectivity, when, clearly, you're biased.
5) Misleading vividness. Overdramatizing the flood story to show that there's a moral problem.
6) Begging the question. You're assuming a conclusion in your (faulty) premise.
Your agenda is the opposite. Except for the morally gullible part. The exegesis shows the Bible is bad. The morally gullible must be protedcted, because they are the most vulnerable to being told 'God murdering millions to save a few is a-ok!"
Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.
Straw man.
They were weighed. This is the result.
Illicit major.

With regard to the rest of your post:

You're actually beginning to rant. I can almost see the little bubble of foam at the corner of your mouth. Excellent!
You're so predictable.

Your whole argument is one giant, fallacial zit, filled with the pus of B.S.
and you know it.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Seems perfectly consistent to me. Please elaborate.
No, because he's using "the number of dead" as a yardstick for making the judgment of "good/bad." The text, however, doesn't approach it from that angle. the text approaches it from the angle of degree of evil.

In other words, HH's argument is that God isn't justified, due to the sheer number of people dead. The text's argument is that the people had become so evil that the level of evilness justified the number of dead.

It represents an inconsistent comparison.
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
Inconsistent comparison.
Fallacy.

Several problems here:
1) (Yet again) Inconsistent comparison. Your use of the term "bad" is different from mine.
2) historian's fallacy. you're assuming that the way you look at the problem is the way the authors looked at the problem.
3) Continuum fallacy. You're improperly rejecting my claim as being imprecise.
4) Psychologist's fallacy. You're supposing your own objectivity, when, clearly, you're biased.
5) Misleading vividness. Overdramatizing the flood story to show that there's a moral problem.
6) Begging the question. You're assuming a conclusion in your (faulty) premise.

Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.
Straw man.

Illicit major.

With regard to the rest of your post:

You're actually beginning to rant. I can almost see the little bubble of foam at the corner of your mouth. Excellent!
You're so predictable.

Your whole argument is one giant, fallacial zit, filled with the pus of B.S.
and you know it.
As a courtesy, please outline the definition of each of those fallacies.

As I did.
 
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