Did Jesus say he was God???

[Shermana]

Next question, if the Mosaic Law is temporary, where does the NT forbid marrying your sister or your horse? Nowhere? Does that mean such is allowed now? That might explain a lot about the south....

Now like I said, if the Law of Moses is "fulfilled", where does the NT expressly forbid you from marrying your sister or your horse. If you cannot answer, just say "You're right, it doesn't" and concede without coming up with some answer like "Those led by the Spirit will naturally not do what is forbidden in Leviticus even though its not explicitly mentioned" because that only proves my point more.

 

[InChrist]

So does this mean that all the Christians in jail weren't "living in Christ"?

How does one "Follow the Spirit"? Can you give some examples?

Why wouldn't they strike their parents? Are they being supernaturally led to not commit any act which violates the Torah? Does this mean they won't fornicate outside of marriage either?

[FONT=&quot]It depends on what the Christians are in jail for. If they committed a crime like murder or theft then they were not living in Christ, if they are in prison for reading the Bible or not denying the name of Christ then they were/are living in Christ.
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[FONT=&quot]Following the Spirit means allowing Christ to transform one’s mind so that the sinful deeds of the flesh (listed below) are replaced with the attitudes and behaviors of the Spirit (also listed below). If I see in myself and convicted by the Holy Spirit of any sinful deeds of the flesh then I know I am not living in Christ and it is time to pray seeking His strength to walk in the spirit producing good fruit. For example, I may start getting impatient or angry because something is not going my way, it is then time to take my wrong thoughts captive to Christ.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Would Jesus Christ have struck His earthly parents? Or fornicate outside of marriage? NO, neither would someone who is trusting and submitting their life to Christ do these things

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[FONT=&quot]I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. Gal.5:16-26[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:22[/FONT]

 

[InChrist]

[/quote]Originally Posted by Shermana So does the word "Fulfilled" mean "Abolished"? When Jesus' joy was fulfilled, does that mean his joy was abolished? If Christians don't have to worry about their works, why does Jesus say "I will reward each according to their owrks"? If effort is not an issue, why do they have to strive for the sheepsgate? Why does Paul even place such an emphasis on good behavior?

It seems you have the standard "License to sin" model? You have a strange Theology, you think ther'es no effort involved, yet you say one who lives in Christ wouldn't sin. How does this work exactly?

It seems YOU are the one adding to the scripture, or rather subtracting. You must have casually skipped over all the parts where Jesus puts a great deal of emphasis on personal behavior. Why exactly does he say its better to cut off your hand than use it go to hell? No need to include those verses in your theology of course.

It doesn't matter whether I think anyone is righteous enough to meet the standards of the Law. People like you think no one has to even try at all, and all you gotta do is say "I believe", not even realizing that "believe" in the Greek means "be persuaded to follow"

"If you don't really love me, then you won't obey my commandments".

Try reading Matthew 7:22-23. "Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord...." "Away from me ye doers of Lawlessness"

Doers of Lawlessness = breakers of the Law.

So if Jesus "fulfilled" the Law, why does he say that people like you who preach you can break it will be called the "Least?" I hope you enjoy the idea of being considered among the lowliest in the kingdom. Those are Jesus' words which you seem to be denying.

It is clearly the Antinomians who try to misinterpret and add and subtract form the scriptures.

Christ was 100% Jewish, the religion is meant for Jews, and gentiles are meant to graft to the branch of Israel. If you don't like it, oh well. Get used to being known as "The least", unless you want to cross that part out with a sharpie.[/quote]


[FONT=&quot]I don’t know who the Antinomians are or what they teach. I simply read and believe the Bible and I do believe one's personal behavior is important. My standard is not a “license to sin’ or a “sloppy grace” model because such is contrary to scripture. But it is also unbiblical to depart from the freedom, liberty, peace, and rest in Christ to instead live under the burden of the law which I am not capable of doing. My obedience is to Christ and my trust is in His righteousness, not my own. A believer who truly loves the Lord does not desire to live a sinful life. The link below is to an article which pretty clearly explains my perspective. You may read it or not as you choose. You may call me the least if you choose, but God is my only Judge. Just remember when Jesus spoke the words you are referring to He was speaking to Jewish audience who were at that time, before the cross, required to keep the laws.[/FONT]

The Law of Moses

Does it apply to Christians today?

Articles - The Jews - Life - The Law of Moses

 

[Shermana]

"[FONT=&quot]before the cross,"

I don't see any reason or scriptural basis why "the cross" means that the Laws are abolished afterwards. Care to answer the question about horses? Did the cross give you permission to marry your horse or not? If not, why not, with NT verse to back up your position. Or, you can honorably say "You're right, it doesn't" and concede that the NT nowhere expressly forbids marriages to your sister or horse.

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[FONT="]is in His righteousness, not my own.[/FONT]

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Your righteousness must indeed exceed the Scribes and Pharisees if you wish to see the Kingdom, lest you be "Lukewarm" and spat out. All will be rewarded according to their works, in Jesus' own words.
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[InChrist]

Now like I said, if the Law of Moses is "fulfilled", where does the NT expressly forbid you from marrying your sister or your horse. If you cannot answer, just say "You're right, it doesn't" and concede without coming up with some answer like "Those led by the Spirit will naturally not do what is forbidden in Leviticus even though its not explicitly mentioned" because that only proves my point more.

Jesus Christ fulfilled the law of Moses. A believer in Christ lives in His righteousness. It would be contrary to the law of Christ and His righteousness to marry a sibling or an animal and the Holy Spirit would not lead one to do so.

 

[Shermana]

Jesus Christ fulfilled the law of Moses. A believer in Christ lives in His righteousness. It would be contrary to the law of Christ and His righteousness to marry a sibling or an animal and the Holy Spirit would not lead one to do so.

Okay, so you're saying that nowhere it express forbids people from marrying their sisters and horses, thank you for admitting that. If you have scripture to back up your position that would be great.

Again, the word "Fulfilled" simply means "filled" as in "lived up to", like "I filled the job".

PS What is the definition of "Righteousness", especially in Matthew 5:17-20 terms?

 

[InChrist]

"[FONT=&quot]before the cross,"

I don't see any reason or scriptural basis why "the cross" means that the Laws are abolished afterwards. [/FONT]

I have never said the laws are abolished. I have said, fulfilled by Christ. Jesus did say, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. Luke 22;20
So He did establish a new covenant or way in which people were to relate to God.

 

[InChrist]

Okay, so you're saying that nowhere it express forbids people from marrying their sisters and horses, thank you for admitting that. If you have scripture to back up your position that would be great.

Again, the word "Fulfilled" simply means "filled" as in "lived up to", like "I filled the job".

PS What is the definition of "Righteousness", especially in Matthew 5:17-20 terms?

It is getting late. If possible I'll get back to this tomorrow and I will read Matthew 5:17-20. What position is it that you would like me to back up with scripture?

 

[Shermana]

I have never said the laws are abolished. I have said, fulfilled by Christ. Jesus did say, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. Luke 22;20
So He did establish a new covenant or way in which people were to relate to God.

And what was the "New Covenant" established with Jeremiah about? What is this new way to relate to God exactly?

The "New Covenant" in Jeremiah's days was more of a "Restored" covenant, since Israel had lost its way, just like how the Pharisees had corrupted the Law and abused their power. The difference of back then is that the Prophets were able to restore Israel away from its idolatrous and false customs whereas Jews have been meshed in Qabala and spurious Midrash for 2,000 years. The "New Covenant" is about restoring the original form like the New Covenant spoken of in Jeremiah. If you read the very prophecies which Jesus came to "fulfill" in the first place, they are about someone who leads the true chosen remnant of Israel back to righteousness.

 

[Shermana]

It is getting late. If possible I'll get back to this tomorrow and I will read Matthew 5:17-20. What position is it that you would like me to back up with scripture?

The position that says that one who is "truly led by Christ" will automatically not commit such abominations, as opposed to simply admitting there are many bad behaviors not mentioned in the NT but are outlined in the Law which are still in effect, and there is no way of differentiating between them in terms of class like "Moral laws" and "purity Laws'< the whole law is the whole law, with temporary exception for Temple Sacrifices which will resume in the future.

 

[InChrist]

Okay, so you're saying that nowhere it express forbids people from marrying their sisters and horses, thank you for admitting that. If you have scripture to back up your position that would be great.

Again, the word "Fulfilled" simply means "filled" as in "lived up to", like "I filled the job".

PS What is the definition of "Righteousness", especially in Matthew 5:17-20 terms?

Righteousness is the character or quality of being right or just. Jesus is truly righteous and just, therefore His life did fulfill the requirements of the law. He did fill the job which everyone else fails at by ignoring, attempting to keep the law themselves, or corrupting it as the Pharisees.



No matter how hard you try to keep the law or how you may convince yourself you are doing a good job, you will never perfectly meet every requirement, but Jesus Christ has. Why don't you accept His righteousness on your behalf? Why can't you fully trust Him as your Savior and Messiah?

 

[InChrist]

And what was the "New Covenant" established with Jeremiah about? What is this new way to relate to God exactly?

[FONT=&quot]The way I relate to God is through an ongoing daily relationship with Jesus Christ walking in the newness of His life&#8230; trusting in His work on the cross and resurrection victory over death, depending upon, and seeking His word and guidance through all life&#8217;s circumstances. If I do this then I won&#8217;t sin. It is when I take my focus and thoughts off Christ and put them on myself that I sin, Thankfully, He is my High Priest and Savior and when I confess He is faithful and just to forgive.[/FONT]

The "New Covenant" in Jeremiah's days was more of a "Restored" covenant, since Israel had lost its way, just like how the Pharisees had corrupted the Law and abused their power. The difference of back then is that the Prophets were able to restore Israel away from its idolatrous and false customs whereas Jews have been meshed in Qabala and spurious Midrash for 2,000 years. The "New Covenant" is about restoring the original form like the New Covenant spoken of in Jeremiah. If you read the very prophecies which Jesus came to "fulfill" in the first place, they are about someone who leads the true chosen remnant of Israel back to righteousness.

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[FONT=&quot]It is not a restored covenant it is new and it was not established with Jeremiah, it was prophesied by him. The covenant of the law God made with Moses was intended to demonstrate God&#8217;s standard of perfection and holiness and to show humanity their inability to reach such a standard, thus the need for the Messiah/Savior. Israel proved this reality throughout their history and every person proves it every day.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot] This is the new covenant Jeremiah foretold[/FONT][FONT=&quot], &#8220;Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah&#8212; not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. Jeremiah 13:31-32[/FONT]


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[FONT=&quot]But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. Hebrews 8:6[/FONT]





[FONT=&quot]As the scriptures reveal, the law is a tutor to point to Christ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Galatians 3:23-25[/FONT]

 

[InChrist]

The position that says that one who is "truly led by Christ" will automatically not commit such abominations, as opposed to simply admitting there are many bad behaviors not mentioned in the NT but are outlined in the Law which are still in effect, and there is no way of differentiating between them in terms of class like "Moral laws" and "purity Laws'< the whole law is the whole law, with temporary exception for Temple Sacrifices which will resume in the future.

[FONT=&quot]If you accept the whole law then you cannot have any changes or temporary exceptions. You are falling short by not keeping all the laws exactly as they are each spelled out, including sacrifices. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The NT does not list each and every behavior which is sinful as is done in the OT, but enough information and instruction is given so that anyone seeking God’s will knows what behaviors are wrong and there is plenty about sexual immorality or what kind of sexuality is acceptable. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is not automatic, but anyone who is truly led by Christ will not sin. It does involve a conscious choice each day to be led by Christ and believe God’s Word rather than relying on self. As soon as self or self- effort comes to the forefront sin follows. That is the reason attempting to keep the law will always reveal sin.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:1-14[/FONT]

 

[Shermana]

"[FONT=&quot]who is truly led by Christ will not sin."

According to 1 John 3, Sin is "Lawlessness". Therefore, a "Truly led" Christian will not "Commit lawlessness".

I asked if you read Matthew 7:22-23.

The "Suffering Servant" is explicitly referred to be THE Sacrifice in the OT, especially as it coincides with the loss of the Temple. The Sacrifices will return when the Temple is restored.

A commonly avoided question when dealing with the "Sacrifice issue" is....what did the Bablyonian and Assyrian exiles and captives do when there was no Temple? What did they do with the Selucid Greeks sacked the Temple? What of all the times when many generations had no access to Sacrifices?

You cannot do them on your own, Saul lost his kingdom for having the arrogance to perform his own Sacrifices.

Using the Sacrifices as a rule to rule out all the other laws simply is unscriptural.
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[InChrist]

"[FONT=&quot]who is truly led by Christ will not sin."

According to 1 John 3, Sin is "Lawlessness". Therefore, a "Truly led" Christian will not "Commit lawlessness".

I asked if you read Matthew 7:22-23.

The "Suffering Servant" is explicitly referred to be THE Sacrifice in the OT, especially as it coincides with the loss of the Temple. The Sacrifices will return when the Temple is restored.

A commonly avoided question when dealing with the "Sacrifice issue" is....what did the Bablyonian and Assyrian exiles and captives do when there was no Temple? What did they do with the Selucid Greeks sacked the Temple? What of all the times when many generations had no access to Sacrifices?

You cannot do them on your own, Saul lost his kingdom for having the arrogance to perform his own Sacrifices.

Using the Sacrifices as a rule to rule out all the other laws simply is unscriptural.
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When the exiles were captive in Babylon and Assyria their faith was still in the sacrificial system God had established. They longed to return to Jerusalem and build the temple again. Of course the sacrifices were a shadow or picture of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah. So it was this trust and faith in God’s Word and His established covenant and system at that time (ultimately pointing to Jesus Christ) which saved the people. As Hebrews chapter 11 points out, even those during OT times were saved by faith, not the works of the law. I agree you can't do the sacrifices on your own, but neither can you fulfill the law on your own, nor separate the sacrifices from the whole law which you are attempting to keep.



I have read Matthew 7:22-23 many times. Again, I am so thankful I have a Savior and that God does not consider me lawless because I am covered by the blood of Christ and He has applied His righteousness to me. He is the propitiation for my sins. According to the scriptures my sinful self is dead, I am a new creation in Christ and when God the Father looks at me He sees the righteousness of His beloved Son.

 

[Shermana]

" but neither can you fulfill the law on your own"

- Other than the temple duties, what part of the Law do you think can't be "fulfilled" on our own?

When the exiles were captive in Babylon and Assyria their faith was still in the sacrificial system

Orthodox Jews pray for the return of the Temple and the Sacrifices quite commonly.

Again, I am so thankful I have a Savior and that God does not consider me lawless because I am covered by the blood of Christ and He has applied His righteousness to me.

It is nice to see that you know for a fact that your saviour doesn't consider you lawless, did he tell you this personally? Why don't you back up your verse with scripture that says you are covered by the blood for all your lawlessness.

As Hebrews chapter 11 points out, even those during OT times were saved by faith, not the works of the law

What does it mean to be "saved", (from what?) and what was the point of even obeying the Law in the first place?

According to the scriptures my sinful self is dead

Because you said so? Or do you just not consider anything you do as sinning even if it counts as it? Have you never thought of women lustfully since?

 

[InChrist]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Your righteousness must indeed exceed the Scribes and Pharisees if you wish to see the Kingdom, lest you be "Lukewarm" and spat out. All will be rewarded according to their works, in Jesus' own words.
[/FONT]

I am not attempting to please God with my own righteousness (which would amount to no more than filthy rags). Instead I know and trust that the righteousness of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees. His righteousness is applied to me by faith and in Him I rest my hope of eternal life.

 

[Shermana]

I am not attempting to please God with my own righteousness (which would amount to no more than filthy rags). Instead I know and trust that the righteousness of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees. His righteousness is applied to me by faith and in Him I rest my hope of eternal life.

Okay, so you don't believe any effort is involved and you can live however you want, that's the exact opposite message of Paul considering he constantly castigates bad behavior. Are you saying there is no penalty for bad behavior?

As for Matthew 7:22-23, who do you suppose are all the people who call Jesus "Lord" in that passage? Who are the "Lukewarm" in Revelation?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If Adam could have lived however he wanted, then Adam would still be alive today.
Adam was informed that disobedience would result in his death. Eternal death.

 

[InChrist]

- Other than the temple duties, what part of the Law do you think can't be "fulfilled" on our own?

Orthodox Jews pray for the return of the Temple and the Sacrifices quite commonly.

Since you have already said you can't separate the Law into parts why don't you tell me how you keep all of it?

I believe the temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices will take place again.

It is nice to see that you know for a fact that your saviour doesn't consider you lawless, did he tell you this personally? Why don't you back up your verse with scripture that says you are covered by the blood for all your lawlessness.

What does it mean to be "saved", (from what?) and what was the point of even obeying the Law in the first place?

Because you said so? Or do you just not consider anything you do as sinning even if it counts as it? Have you never thought of women lustfully since?

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But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:21-26


In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence Eph. 1:7-8



Through Christ one is saved from the consequence of sin which is death or separation from God forever.


I have previously stated what I believe the scriptures show to be the point of the Law ( to demonstrate God's holy standard and to reveal sin) and the reason for obeying the Law in the first place (before Christ obedience to the Law was required to demonstrate one's faith in God).


I have never thought of a women lustfully, but I will not deny that I have sinned. As I said I have a Savior who has paid for all my sins, past, present, and future. When I do sin I can confess and receive forgiveness. My question is have you lusted, hated, cheated, stolen, or broken any of the Law or kept it imperfectly?