Did Jesus say he was God???

[pwfaith]

John 10:31 Once more the Jews lifted up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to YOU many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are YOU stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “YOU are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?

When he told people that he was Gods Son, they knew that he was saying that he was a divine being...a being who existed in Gods form such as a spirit. That is what they objected to. They accused him of making himself more then human. Well of course we know that Jesus was more then human...he existed in heaven with God, so he was more then just a human.

But as you can see in the account, he said that he was 'Gods Son'...not God himself.

I believe that as God (John 1:1), Jesus possesses the full nature of the only true God (Colossians 1:19; 2:9), yet I DO NOT believe that Jesus is the Father. You are correct when you mentioned how the Son is distinct from the Father. Scripture makes a clear distinction between the person of the Father and the person of the Son. I believe there is but ONE God, that exists in 3-distinct persons.

“God is not triplex (1+1+1)—He is triune (1X1X1), and he has revealed Himself fully in the Person of our Lord, Jesus Christ (Col. 2:9, John 14:9).” —Christian Research Institute
​

Do you believe that a human son is less human than his father?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I have never understood how people could say Jesus did not say he was God, it was the very reason he was crucified!

What verse do you have in mind?

Why did the Jews say Jesus was guilty of blasphemy according to John 10v36?

Didn't Jesus also say in verse 29 that his Father is greater than all others?

After God resurrected Jesus from the biblical hell [Acts 2vs27,31,32] didn't the resurrected Jesus still think he had a God over him according to John 20v17 ?

Doesn't the ascended heavenly resurrected Jesus still think he has a God to worship according to Revelation 3v12 ?

 

[Pegg]

I believe that as God (John 1:1), Jesus possesses the full nature of the only true God (Colossians 1:19; 2:9), yet I DO NOT believe that Jesus is the Father. You are correct when you mentioned how the Son is distinct from the Father. Scripture makes a clear distinction between the person of the Father and the person of the Son. I believe there is but ONE God, that exists in 3-distinct persons.

“God is not triplex (1+1+1)—He is triune (1X1X1), and he has revealed Himself fully in the Person of our Lord, Jesus Christ (Col. 2:9, John 14:9).” —Christian Research Institute
​

Do you believe that a human son is less human than his father?

I would say that a human son is the same form as his father, yet he is as much an individual as his father is an individual.

So i agree with you when you say that Jesus is not the Father. I think that's definitely a point we both agree on.

But with regard to the trinity, i think that is a way that some have attempted to explain the relationship between the father and son. However I dont think it is really necessary to do that considering Jesus has explained his relationship to his father this way:

John 5:19 Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner

Jesus explanation here shows that he learns from his father, much the same way our own children learn from us. And Jesus imitates his father much the same way our children imitate us. But as we know, our children are our prodigy and this is how I view Jesus as well. As a prodigy of God the Father. A created being.

 

[pwfaith]

I would say that a human son is the same form as his father, yet he is as much an individual as his father is an individual.

Yes, they are both fully human. How then can Jesus as God’s Son be less God than His Father is God? A son is no more, no less “human” than his father, so Jesus as God’s Son is no more, no less “God” than his Father is “God.” This is why the Jews endeavored to stone Jesus for blasphemy. They understood Jesus’ claim to be the “Son of God” as a claim that made Him “equal” in nature to the one and only true God (John 5:18; 19:7; Leviticus 24:16).

Father is called God at 1 Peter 1:2
Son is called God at John 20:28
Holy Spirit is called God at Acts 5:3-4
There is only one true God —John 17:3

This would be my beliefs

 

[Pegg]

Yes, they are both fully human. How then can Jesus as God’s Son be less God than His Father is God? A son is no more, no less “human” than his father, so Jesus as God’s Son is no more, no less “God” than his Father is “God.” This is why the Jews endeavored to stone Jesus for blasphemy. They understood Jesus’ claim to be the “Son of God” as a claim that made Him “equal” in nature to the one and only true God (John 5:18; 19:7; Leviticus 24:16).

Father is called God at 1 Peter 1:2
Son is called God at John 20:28
Holy Spirit is called God at Acts 5:3-4
There is only one true God —John 17:3

This would be my beliefs

Yes, you've got it exactly right when you say that Jesus claim made him 'equal in nature' to God. Because what is Gods 'nature'?
The scriptures say he is a 'spirit'... that is his nature in the same way our nature is 'flesh'

So tell me, would you also agree that the angles of God, who exist as spirits like God, are also equal in 'nature'.... as in their form and appearance?

 

[Shermana]

I believe that as God (John 1:1), Jesus possesses the full nature of the only true God (Colossians 1:19; 2:9), yet I DO NOT believe that Jesus is the Father. You are correct when you mentioned how the Son is distinct from the Father. Scripture makes a clear distinction between the person of the Father and the person of the Son. I believe there is but ONE God, that exists in 3-distinct persons.

“God is not triplex (1+1+1)—He is triune (1X1X1), and he has revealed Himself fully in the Person of our Lord, Jesus Christ (Col. 2:9, John 14:9).” —Christian Research Institute
​

Do you believe that a human son is less human than his father?

John 1:1 should say "And a god was the word", there are many translations that have correctly accounted for the lack of article besides the NWT. If there's an issue with Jesus being called "a god", who is "The god of this world" in 2 Cor 4:4?

How can it be 1x1x1 if Jesus said "The Father is Greater than I"?

What exactly is the meaning of the word "person"? Does it imply separate beings? Separate minds and wills?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe that as God (John 1:1), Jesus possesses the full nature of the only true God (Colossians 1:19; 2:9), yet I DO NOT believe that Jesus is the Father. You are correct when you mentioned how the Son is distinct from the Father. Scripture makes a clear distinction between the person of the Father and the person of the Son. I believe there is but ONE God, that exists in 3-distinct persons.

“God is not triplex (1+1+1)—He is triune (1X1X1), and he has revealed Himself fully in the Person of our Lord, Jesus Christ (Col. 2:9, John 14:9).” —Christian Research Institute
Do you believe that a human son is less human than his father?​

​

Both Col 1v19 and 2v9 mentions 'all the fullness'. What does Eph 3v19 B say?
Doesn't Jesus want his followers to be filled with all the fullness of God?
Surely Jesus was not asking they all be God.

What does Col. [1vs 15-17] say? Isn't Jesus the image?
Isn't an image a reflection ? A chip off the old block, so to speak.

John [14v9] In what way did people that saw Jesus see the Father?
Didn't John already write at John [1v18] that: No man has seen God... ?
Isn't 1st John [4v12] very clear: No man has seen God at any time?
Doesn't Exodus [33v20] say No man can see God and live?
Yet people did see Jesus.

According to Rev. [3v14 B] Isn't Jesus the beginning of the creation by God?

God had No beginning. Only God was before the beginning. -Psalm 90v2
Jesus was not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

At Acts [28v6 B] there is the letter 'a' inserted,
and at John [1v1] there is No letter 'a' inserted.
Yet the very same Greek grammar rules applies at both verses.

 

[pwfaith]

Yes, you've got it exactly right when you say that Jesus claim made him 'equal in nature' to God. Because what is Gods 'nature'?
The scriptures say he is a 'spirit'... that is his nature in the same way our nature is 'flesh'

So tell me, would you also agree that the angles of God, who exist as spirits like God, are also equal in 'nature'.... as in their form and appearance?

In spirit form, yes, but not as God. Hebrews 1:5 "For example, to which one of the angel did he ever say: 'You are my son; I, today, I have become your father'? And again: 'I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son'?" This verse says that God never said, "You are My Son" to any of His angels. So wouldn't this mean that Jesus is called the "Son of God" in a different sense than angels are called God's sons?

How about when the Bible says that Jesus is the "Son of Man" in Matthew 26:64?
Since God is not a man (Hosea 11:9), could it be that Jesus is the "Son of Man" b/c He possesses the nature of man, being fully human? Since Jesus is called the "Son of Man" b/c he is 100% man, what do you think Scripture means when it calls Jesus the "Son of God" too? Logically if he is 100% man as the "Son of Man", he must be 100% God, as the "Son of God" also.

 

[pwfaith]

John 1:1 should say "And a god was the word", there are many translations that have correctly accounted for the lack of article besides the NWT. If there's an issue with Jesus being called "a god", who is "The god of this world" in 2 Cor 4:4?

Does this mean that you have two "gods," a big God and a little one?

 

[Shermana]

Does this mean that you have two "gods," a big God and a little one?

I repeat, who is "The god of this world" in 2 Cor 4:4? Why is he called "a god"?

The definition of the word "god" is generally confused. I have only one "God", Yashua is Christ and "a god". So by your own terms, I guess yes, I have a "little god" but that's HENOtheism, not Polytheism. The Trinity is Polytheism by dividing this god into "persons".

 

[Pegg]

In spirit form, yes, but not as God. Hebrews 1:5 "For example, to which one of the angel did he ever say: 'You are my son; I, today, I have become your father'? And again: 'I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son'?" This verse says that God never said, "You are My Son" to any of His angels. So wouldn't this mean that Jesus is called the "Son of God" in a different sense than angels are called God's sons?

yes, absolutely.
It is explained by John many times that Jesus is the 'only begotten' of God. This greek word 'monogenes' means 'one of a kind'
And in John 1:2 -3 we read what it means.... "This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence"

What this means is that Jesus was the only spirit being whom God directly created. All other spirit beings (angels) came into existence through Jesus, under Gods direction.
And thats why Jesus is special.

There is a prophetic description of Jesus to be found in Proverbs 8. It describes him as the very first of Gods creations. And it says that he became Gods 'Master Worker'
22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. .... 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; ...30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day"

How about when the Bible says that Jesus is the "Son of Man" in Matthew 26:64?
Since God is not a man (Hosea 11:9), could it be that Jesus is the "Son of Man" b/c He possesses the nature of man, being fully human? Since Jesus is called the "Son of Man" b/c he is 100% man, what do you think Scripture means when it calls Jesus the "Son of God" too? Logically if he is 100% man as the "Son of Man", he must be 100% God, as the "Son of God" also.

that reference to Jesus as 'son of man' has to do with the prophetic requirement that the messiah be a true descendant of Abraham. For the Messiah to be one of Abrahams offspring, he had to be fully human. Thats why God transferred the life of his heavenly son, to the womb of Mary. It was so the promise to Abraham would take place legally as God had described.

But he is also very much 'Son of God' by reason that his life existed before he was born as a man. He was Gods firstborn, his only begotten son. And his true father was God, not any human man...remember that Mary was a virgin, so no human sperm was used to concieve Jesus. He was conceived by God which makes God his father. But also through the womb of Mary, he is also a true 'Son of Man' and descendant of Abraham.

 

[pwfaith]

How can it be 1x1x1 if Jesus said "The Father is Greater than I"?

Would you say a human son is an inferior "human" simply b/c his father is in a "greater" position as leader of the family? Are women inferior to men b/c men are to be in authority over women? I am going to hope/assume not. So it is incorrect to say that Jesus is an inferior “God” simply because His Father is in a “greater” position of authority. Luke 2:51 states that Christ was in "subjection" to Mary and Joseph. Yet we know that Christ was not inferior to them b/c He was in "subjection" to them.

 

[jah59]

I'm new around here and I hope I'm not violating any rules, but I fail to see how arguing over the meaning of words (2 Tim. 2:14) that are irrelevant to the reality of the nature of God is beneficial. Besides, your statement has no basis in fact.

 

[pwfaith]

What this means is that Jesus was the only spirit being whom God directly created. All other spirit beings (angels) came into existence through Jesus, under Gods direction.
And thats why Jesus is special.

And here is where we differ I do not believe Jesus was "created". I believe he is Almighty God (not God the Father, but God the Son).

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Hebrews 7:3 "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

John 1:3 :All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

[pwfaith]

I repeat, who is "The god of this world" in 2 Cor 4:4? Why is he called "a god"?

The definition of the word "god" is generally confused. I have only one "God", Yashua is Christ and "a god". So by your own terms, I guess yes, I have a "little god" but that's HENOtheism, not Polytheism. The Trinity is Polytheism by dividing this god into "persons".

Have there always been 2 Gods?

 

[Pegg]

And here is where we differ I do not believe Jesus was "created". I believe he is Almighty God (not God the Father, but God the Son).

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Hebrews 7:3 "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

John 1:3 :All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Do you think its strange that if Jesus is Almighty God, his personal named changed between the writing of the Hebrew scriptures and the Greek scriptures?

 

[Shermana]

Have there always been 2 Gods?

Apparently Paul called Satan "The God of the world", so yes, but lower case g needs to be established to separate from THE God, who is the Father, who as said in Psalms 136:2, is "The god of the gods". The word "god" means "Superior one", from "Ayel".

Likewise, the Syriac Pe****ta uses the singular "Eloha" for 1:1c, while using "Elohim" for 1:1b.

 

[Shermana]

And here is where we differ I do not believe Jesus was "created". I believe he is Almighty God (not God the Father, but God the Son).

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Hebrews 7:3 "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

John 1:3 :All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

You will notice that the KJV adds a spurious "The" to "Mighty God" (as well as other translations), and the others, there is no "Ha" in each case. The word "El Gibbor" means "Mighty god", as "El" is not the same as "Elohim". Likewise, the word "Everlasting Father" is called "Father of the world to come" in the Douay Rheims and "Father of the age" in other translations. The word "Ad" can mean "Forever" but it also means "an age" . The word "Father" is also used for metaphorical usage.

John 1:3 is defined by Colossians 1:15-17, and might require a knowledge of Philo's description of the Jewish concept of the "Logos" which predated its usage in John. It can be difficult making sense of Anatolian Jewish writings without knowing common ideas and terms. Jesus, as the "Firstborn of all Creation" was basically the "Demiurge", the Chief foreman creator of the angels. When it is said "Let us make man in our image", the "US" is the Angels.

The Logos and Its Function in the Writings of Philo of Alexandria
Philo's view of God - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[pwfaith]

Apparently Paul called Satan "The God of the world", so yes, but lower case g needs to be established to separate from THE God, who is the Father, who as said in Psalms 136:2, is "The god of the gods". The word "god" means "Superior one", from "Ayel".

Likewise, the Syriac Pe****ta uses the singular "Eloha" for 1:1c, while using "Elohim" for 1:1b.

So Jesus is a false god, if a lower case g is to be used?

 

[pwfaith]

Do you think its strange that if Jesus is Almighty God, his personal named changed between the writing of the Hebrew scriptures and the Greek scriptures?

Will try to come back to this tomorrow night. It is getting past my bedtime and morning comes early when you have 5 little ones and need to go to the grocery store